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is jesus god ?

obscurus

New Member
If one accepts the veracity of the Bible, that it indeed records Jesus Christ's words accurately, then I do not see how one can deny that Jesus claimed to be God.

The stumbling block for many is the belief that God can take on human nature which is something perishable and finite in of itself. This is the great mystery which Christians profess that indeed God deemed it fitting to take on our corrupted flesh (due to original sin) so that those who see this Man called Jesus do not see divinity resound in its beauty and glory but see a man like any other man. Of course, the acceptance of Jesus Christ's divinity requires faith which does not somehow suspend or negate reason but transforms and elevates it.

St. Peter humbly confessed that "Thou art Christ, the Son of the Living God" which was not an ordinary statement as in "this man is a good and holy man, he is a son of God" but it was much more. This is Peter's confession in the divinity of Christ. It takes the eyes of faith to see this and surely St. Peter had this faith.

Thirty-three years Jesus Christ walked on this earth and for thirty of those years He led a hidden life and all knew him as the "carpenter's son" where he worked diligently in his foster-father's business learning a skill as only a man can learn and Jesus was truly a man. When it was time to start His public ministry what was the first thing He did at the prompting of His Blessed Mother? He worked a miracle! The next three years were to be some of the most dramatic and most important years in the history of mankind for it was then that Jesus taught us how to live and how to love. How He lived and how He loved mankind (a love which is not sentimental...take the incident with the money-changers) clearly point to his divinity although strictly speaking His divinity cannot be proven as a mathematical formula can. There are certainly passages in Sacred Scripture which point to His divinity, but alas just like the Jews and some of the people during His time it totally eludes us because we do not have faith or we are perhaps "scandalized" that God would dare take on our humanity.

He did manifest His divinity to His most intimate friends, the Apostles, in one particular event which is utterly magnificent in grandeur which we can easily pass over with a rather cold heart. Please allow me to quote from the two Gospels where this event is recorded:

St. Matthew 17:1-7

1 And after six days Jesus taketh unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into a high mountain apart: 2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 And as he was yet speaking, behold a bright cloud overshadowed them. And lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: hear ye him.
6 And the disciples hearing, fell upon their face, and were very much afraid. 7 And Jesus came and touched them: and said to them, Arise, and fear not.
St. Mark 9:1-6

1 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter and James and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves, and was transfigured before them. 2 And his garments became shining and exceeding white as snow, so as no fuller upon earth can make white. 3 And there appeared to them Elias with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus. 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 For he knew not what he said: for they were struck with fear.
6 And there was a cloud overshadowing them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying: This is my most beloved son; hear ye him.
Jesus Christ was not a mere prophet for His life, His mission, His claims, His miracles, His teachings, which were certainly prefigured in the Old Testament, were never before and never will be equaled.

The early Christians believed in His divinity and believed in it to their deaths under the persecutions of the Roman Emperors until Constantine gave religious tolerance (he did not found the Church as some erroneously believe, in fact his religious beliefs were somewhat ambiguous but eventually he would be baptized on his deathbed) to the Christians who were astoundingly growing in numbers amidst these persecutions.

Christian belief in Jesus Christ's divinity was always held even if some groups sadly held to a contrary belief. The Council of Nicea (325 A.D.) codified this belief using key philosophical terms. Now the existence of the Gnostics and the Arians before, during and after the time of the Council of Nicea does not somehow prove that Jesus Christ was not God. It simply shows that free will was and will always be kept in tact. The truth is still there, it is objective but it can either be accepted or rejected. Remember, although it is certainly reasonable to believe in Christ's divinity, it still requires an act of faith on the part of the individual.

From A Companion to the Summa Vol. IV by Fr. Walter Farrell, O.P. Vol. IV, Chapter 2 (google it)

Christ was divine. We cannot prove this by reason; but it can be known and known more certainly than we know the very first principles of thought. For here, you see, there is no such intermediary between ourselves and supreme truth as the light of human reason. This truth comes to us on the direct and full authority of Truth itself; it cannot be proved, it must be believed. Nor is it such a difficult thing to believe; despite its immanent mystery, it is an eminently credible truth.


The existence of Christ and the words of Christ are as certain as any historical truth can well be. Yet this man, Christ, said He was God, not in a whisper, not obscurely hinting, but publicly: before His disciples, before crowds, before His judges. He was so understood; indeed, for saying this thing He died. His statements are well worthy of belief. His whole life is evidence that He was neither a fool nor a liar He was not an actor talking Himself into a part. The splendor of His doctrine, the perfection of His life, His love of God and men are more than enough proof of this. To say the contrary, to say that Christ was deceived or was a deceiver of men, is to fly in the face of the historical evidence. Yet this man, who was neither a fool nor a liar, seriously made the claim again and again that He was God.


His statements had the solemn confirmation of God Himself. There were, for example, the express words of approval at the transfiguration and baptism; there were the miracles of the conservation and propagation of His Church of which the Incarnation was a fundamental doctrine. Miracles are not worked in confirmation of a lie for the very simple reason that God is Truth. Christ Himself worked miracles in express proof of the truth of His words. He made prophecies which were fulfilled. Through Him were fulfilled all the long prophecies of the Old Testament. Surely, if any statement made in the history of the world is worthy of belief, it is the statement that Christ was God, that God became man. Believing it, we have laid hold on the truth around which all human history revolves.


If God were a clumsy lover of men, we might be forced to make excuses for something or other about the Incarnation. Certainly, in the course of human love, we must make allowances for love's good intentions. We know the lover did not mean to spill coffee on a gown in his eagerness to arrange a wrap, to wake up the baby with an over-cheery greeting, to arouse the enthusiasm of the populace by a resounding kiss in a railroad station. Human love is, often enough, clumsy and embarrassing in its expression, but not so divine love; precisely because it is divine, it is perfect in every way. It is not surprising, then, that the Incarnation is perfect from the side of God, from the side of men, and even from the angle of all the circumstances.
 

arthra

Baha'i
A lot of modern scholars of the New Testament present the case that the passages representing or presenting Jesus as God were later additions by the early church as a support for their doctrines/beliefs...so i guess the "veracity" of the New Testament could be called into question...

-Art
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
If one accepts the veracity of the Bible, that it indeed records Jesus Christ's words accurately, then I do not see how one can deny that Jesus claimed to be God.

It depends on what words you're talking about. The question is...where in the bible does "YESHUA" say he is God? Christians do a great job presenting us with implicit statements but when these statements are reviewed in context they in no way suggest Yeshua made any sort of claim he was God.

The stumbling block for many is the belief that God can take on human nature which is something perishable and finite in of itself. This is the great mystery which Christians profess that indeed God deemed it fitting to take on our corrupted flesh (due to original sin) so that those who see this Man called Jesus do not see divinity resound in its beauty and glory but see a man like any other man. Of course, the acceptance of Jesus Christ's divinity requires faith which does not somehow suspend or negate reason but transforms and elevates it.

The problem here is no one is questioning the divinity of Yeshua. One does not have to be deity in order to be divine. The other problem you have is there is no information that says Yeshua was God in the flesh. His own mother did not take him as God in the flesh.

Luke 2:22
And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

No one thought him to be God. Why did God need to be purified? Additionally, if he was thought to be God then why would they be bringing him to be presented to God?

St. Peter humbly confessed that "Thou art Christ, the Son of the Living God" which was not an ordinary statement as in "this man is a good and holy man, he is a son of God" but it was much more. This is Peter's confession in the divinity of Christ. It takes the eyes of faith to see this and surely St. Peter had this faith.

That's fine. That's not in dispute. Simon did not see him as God. He viewed Yeshua as the Messiah, the son of the living god. This wasn't the first time he said that. He said this same thing in John 6:69. Well, how did Yeshua see himself? Did he see himself as God? The answer to this question is NO. Because Yeshua repeats this same thing in HIS prayer to his god.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know YOU, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, whom YOU HAVE SENT.

See it's quite simple. The man never said he was God and as we can clearly see , throughout the scripture he, his family nor his followers thought him to be God. There are plenty of other areas where he reveals to us he wasn't;

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank you, O Father, Master of heaven and earth, because you hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.


It's not rocket science. We know Yeshua has a god because he told us he did.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


These are easy statements to understand. There's no mystery in them. Yeshua is the Messiah that God (Yeshua's god) taught, sent to earth and commanded him what he should say. Yeshua acknowledges this.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
christian says jesus claim divinity !
there is not a single verse in the complete bible where he him self claimed as god !

if any one find that verse please tell me .but
a verse a time !
it will be fair for discussion.:shout
The Bible never said Jesus had two legs either. Do you think He did?
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
The Bible never said Jesus had two legs either. Do you think He did?

We know he had more than one leg, because John uses the plural.

John 19:[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

We can also safely assume that Jesus did not have three legs, because then he would have been a blemished lamb, unsuitable for sacrifice to God.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
We know he had more than one leg, because John uses the plural.

John 19:[33] But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

We can also safely assume that Jesus did not have three legs, because then he would have been a blemished lamb, unsuitable for sacrifice to God.

Thanks Francine. I can't stand when people ask obscure questions like that when the scriptures use "legs" in the plural sense when speaking of Yeshua.
 

Te Deum

Roman Catholic Seminarian
209 Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce his name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture, the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios). It is under this title that the divinity of Jesus will be acclaimed: "Jesus is LORD."

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
209 Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce his name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture, the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios). It is under this title that the divinity of Jesus will be acclaimed: "Jesus is LORD."

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church

As I recall Yeshua wasn't the only prophet referred to as "lord" in the scripture. This title was not reserved strictly for him.
 

Te Deum

Roman Catholic Seminarian
As I recall Yeshua wasn't the only prophet referred to as "lord" in the scripture. This title was not reserved strictly for him.

What other "prophet" is addressed by the divine title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios)?
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
As I recall Yeshua wasn't the only prophet referred to as "lord" in the scripture. This title was not reserved strictly for him.

Genesis 32: [4] And he commanded them, saying, Thus shall ye speak unto my lord Esau; Thy servant Jacob saith thus, I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed there until now: [5] And I have oxen, and asses, flocks, and menservants, and womenservants: and I have sent to tell my lord, that I may find grace in thy sight.
 

obscurus

New Member
Why did the Jews take up stones to throw at Jesus? It was precisely because he claimed equality with God which was blasphemy in their eyes.

John 10:30-33
I and the Father are one. The Jews then took up stones to stone him. Jesus answered them: 32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have showed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? 33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God.

I have a few questions for everyone who does not believe Jesus Christ is God.

Did the Apostles believe that He was God? If not, what did they believe?

Did the early Christian martyrs believe in His divinity?

What prophet ever spoke of forgiving sins in his own name?

What prophet ever claimed to have authority over the moral law? (E.g. "You have heard it said....but I say to you")

Do you believe it at all possible that Jesus did in fact claim to be God and as such ONE with His Father?

What do you make of St. John's Gospel particularly the first chapter?
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to give testimony of the light, that all men might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but was to give testimony of the light. 9 That was the true light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into this world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. 13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Do you accept the teachings of the Council of Nicea? If not, why not?

Who determines what is the correct belief concerning Jesus Christ? Does it matter?

Has there been a consistent belief in Jesus' Divinity for the 2,000 year history of Christianity?
 

obscurus

New Member
DreGod07 said:
The problem here is no one is questioning the divinity of Yeshua. One does not have to be deity in order to be divine. The other problem you have is there is no information that says Yeshua was God in the flesh. His own mother did not take him as God in the flesh.
Read St. John's Gospel which clearly states that the "Word was made flesh". When Mary was visited by her cousin Elizabeth she said "Whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me" (Luke 1:40-45) What does she mean by this? How do you know his mother did not take him to be "God in the flesh"? The Council of Ephesus pronounced Mary Theotokos "God-bearing" thus the Mother of God and all the people rejoiced at this reaffirmation of orthodox Christian belief. Now we know Jesus was also a man (He slept, shed tears over Jerusalem, ate with His Apostles, suffered and died). I think you must give more attention to the teachings of the early Councils which clarified and cemented Christian teaching.

DreGod07 said:
Luke 2:22
And when the time came for their purification according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

No one thought him to be God. Why did God need to be purified? Additionally, if he was thought to be God then why would they be bringing him to be presented to God?
On the surface this particular passage seems to dispel any notion of Jesus' divinity but perhaps you are taking this quote out of context and missing a few points. Let me quote from the Haydock Bible Commentary:

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]Ver. 22.[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif] Of her purification. The blessed Virgin mother stood not in need of this ceremony, to which she submitted herself, as her Son did to that of circumcision. (Witham) --- Whence [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]St. Lawrence Justinian in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif]his sermon on the purification, very well observes: grace raised the Virgin above the law; humility subjected her to it. Jesus Christ, in subjecting himself to the law of Moses, has left us an example to princes and magistrates, to obey their own laws; for then they may expect them to be observed by others, when themselves shew respect to them. (Barradius.)[/FONT]
I hope that makes sense.


DreGod07 said:
See it's quite simple. The man never said he was God and as we can clearly see , throughout the scripture he, his family nor his followers thought him to be God. There are plenty of other areas where he reveals to us he wasn't;
But what about Tradition? What about the early Christian martyrs? What about the Church Fathers? You can't just dismiss Tradition and the claims of these early witnesses to the Gospel and the first Christians to systematically study Christian doctrine.

Here are just a sample of statements the Church Fathers made on this issue which can easily be found online:

St. Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

St. Clement of Alexandria
"The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]).

"Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1).

Origen
"Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]).

Were these learned men simply delusional?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Not even Jesus is addressed that way. When Thomas exclaims "My Lord and My God!" it's like he said "Heavens to Betsy!"
You think so? I see it more as is in the words of the hymn, "How Great Thou Art." The fourth verse says:

When Christ shall come, with shout of acclamation,
And take me home, what joy shall fill my heart!
Then I shall bow in humble adoration,
And there proclaim, "My God, how great Thou art!"

Somehow I think "My Lord and my God!" was more an expression of humble adoration than it was "Heavens to Betsy!" At least it sounds like it in the context of the story.
 

Te Deum

Roman Catholic Seminarian
Not even Jesus is addressed that way. When Thomas exclaims "My Lord and My God!" it's like he said "Heavens to Betsy!"

That is not true. Jesus is addressed with the title "LORD" (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios). He is not saying "Heavens to Betsy" because we can see the words used in the Greek and Latin.
 

trinity2359

Active Member
OT, slightly. A question: does Cathollicism consider the tetragramaton (YHWH, LORD) to refer to Christ or the Father? I was always bewildered by the reference in Psa 110:1: "The LORD says to my Lord, sit at my right hand" Obviously it is the Father speaking of the Messiah and thus YHWH is the Father. But that is a topic for another time. Continue with your usual discussion :)
 

Francine

Well-Known Member
OT, slightly. A question: does Cathollicism consider the tetragramaton (YHWH, LORD) to refer to Christ or the Father?

"Christians are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: not in their names, for there is only one God, the almighty Father, his only Son and the Holy Spirit: the Most Holy Trinity." (CCC 233)
 

blueman

God's Warrior
There is no question that Jesus equated Himself with God The Father. As someone noted earlier, John 8:57-59 underscores that claim. Why do you think the religious leaders of that day wanted Jesus to be cruxified? The charge against Jesus was blasphemy for His belief that He was equal with God. This is an old argument that really has no legs when you break down scripture.
 
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