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Is Jesus responsible for what Paul said?

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Paul did not meet Jesus, he was never a disciple of Jesus; so how could Jesus be responsible for what Paul said, please?
____________

#9
Your question seems to imply that the Paul of the Pauline letters was a real historical person and that this person was the same person as referred to in the letters as well as in Acts.

I don't believe those things. I agree with Hermann Detering that the letters are pseudografia designed to express a gnostic type of christianity as opposed to the Jewish type of christianity as practised by the Ebionites or Nazarenes (who strongly opposed the so-called Pauline viewpoint).

The New Testament was put together and heavily edited by the orthodox branch of the church in Rome. Its different texts were also taken from heterodox groups of christians which were adjusted to make them fit in with orthodox views.

So who really wrote the more original (non yet edited) Pauline pseudo-letters and who does this Paul in the letters really stand for? The first church to have used the original letters was the large church of Marcion. We do not know whether Marcion himself took part in their writing or whether there were different gnostic authors involved from the same gnostic school of christianity. The bible of the Marcionite church only consisted of the original Pauline letters and a more original version of the gospel of Luke and nothing else. The orthodox church of Rome lengthened and edited these (as well as other texts which they took from here and there).

The view of this mythical Paul in Acts makes him subservient to Peter but in the original letters (without the interpolations and newer letters) Paul is still in opposition to Peter who was the leader of a Jewish messianic sect.

According to Hermann Detering the Paul of the original letters is modelled on Simon of Gitta (Simon Magus) and the authors of these Pauline pseudo-letters were from the gnostic school of his followers.

That does not answer the whole question because what would the historical Jesus have wanted?
That depends on how you see this historical Jesus.
I personally do not believe that the historical Jesus would have liked the gospel of Matthew or its more original version that may have been used by the Ebionites. I think those followers of Jesus put words into the mouth of Jesus that were never his, such as apocalyptic predictions and different orders to stick to the Jewish law which do not build on the original teachings of Jesus.

I do think Jesus would have somewhat liked the gnostic ideas of Simon of Gitta but they don't seem to build directly on the historical teachings of Jesus as found in Q either. So it would go too far to say that Jesus would have liked either the gospel stories or the original Pauline letters. But I feel quite certain that Jesus would not have liked the syncretic amalgam which the orthodox church of Rome conconted and the ritualism and lack of real spiritual practices in that religion. I don't think that Jesus ever wanted his mission to turn into the mission of a ritualistic and superstitious Roman church.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Because at any one time only rather few animals can exist. Go out to the country and look how sparse life is even on a farm.

I have no reason to assume the situation was like in modern farm. Also, the flood could have carried stuff so that it formed thicker layers.

This is wrong. The continents were last together about 200 million years ago.

That is one belief that can be totally wrong. I have no reason to assume it is correct.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I have no reason to assume the situation was like in modern farm. Also, the flood could have carried stuff so that it formed thicker layers.

Please, don't spew such nonsense. The sea life alone refutes this. And life is actually less dense in the sea than on land. And no, we know how floods deposit materials. The sorting mechanisms needed do not exist. But go ahead, prove your claim. How would organisms be sorted on the microscopic level?

That is one belief that can be totally wrong. I have no reason to assume it is correct.

Wrong again, we can date such events. You have heard of radiometric dating, haven't you?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
Please, don't spew such nonsense. The sea life alone refutes this. And life is actually less dense in the sea than on land. And no, we know how floods deposit materials. The sorting mechanisms needed do not exist. But go ahead, prove your claim. How would organisms be sorted on the microscopic level?

Sorry, I think I have explained it already. If you don’t understand it from what I have told here and shown here:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/geology.html

I think I have nothing more to say.

Wrong again, we can date such events. You have heard of radiometric dating, haven't you?

Unfortunately radiometric dating is circular reasoning, made to support evolution belief.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Your question seems to imply that the Paul of the Pauline letters was a real historical person and that this person was the same person as referred to in the letters as well as in Acts.

I don't believe those things. I agree with Hermann Detering that the letters are pseudografia designed to express a gnostic type of christianity as opposed to the Jewish type of christianity as practised by the Ebionites or Nazarenes (who strongly opposed the so-called Pauline viewpoint).

The New Testament was put together and heavily edited by the orthodox branch of the church in Rome. Its different texts were also taken from heterodox groups of christians which were adjusted to make them fit in with orthodox views.

So who really wrote the more original (non yet edited) Pauline pseudo-letters and who does this Paul in the letters really stand for? The first church to have used the original letters was the large church of Marcion. We do not know whether Marcion himself took part in their writing or whether there were different gnostic authors involved from the same gnostic school of christianity. The bible of the Marcionite church only consisted of the original Pauline letters and a more original version of the gospel of Luke and nothing else. The orthodox church of Rome lengthened and edited these (as well as other texts which they took from here and there).

The view of this mythical Paul in Acts makes him subservient to Peter but in the original letters (without the interpolations and newer letters) Paul is still in opposition to Peter who was the leader of a Jewish messianic sect.

According to Hermann Detering the Paul of the original letters is modelled on Simon of Gitta (Simon Magus) and the authors of these Pauline pseudo-letters were from the gnostic school of his followers.

That does not answer the whole question because what would the historical Jesus have wanted?
That depends on how you see this historical Jesus.
I personally do not believe that the historical Jesus would have liked the gospel of Matthew or its more original version that may have been used by the Ebionites. I think those followers of Jesus put words into the mouth of Jesus that were never his, such as apocalyptic predictions and different orders to stick to the Jewish law which do not build on the original teachings of Jesus.

I do think Jesus would have somewhat liked the gnostic ideas of Simon of Gitta but they don't seem to build directly on the historical teachings of Jesus as found in Q either. So it would go too far to say that Jesus would have liked either the gospel stories or the original Pauline letters. But I feel quite certain that Jesus would not have liked the syncretic amalgam which the orthodox church of Rome conconted and the ritualism and lack of real spiritual practices in that religion. I don't think that Jesus ever wanted his mission to turn into the mission of a ritualistic and superstitious Roman church.
Thanks for the information provided in the post. It will be good if one makes threads on the issues raised by one in the post so that other members also give their views.

Regards
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Paul did not meet Jesus, he was never a disciple of Jesus; so how could Jesus be responsible for what Paul said, please?
Open for discussion for everybody, whether one belongs to religion or no-religion with reason and arguments if any, or none at all.

Regards

____________

#9
I lean quickly to say as you have pointed out

Paul is the alleged author of half the new testament
and church goers are quick to quote him

but I see intense lean to hide behind the head nodding and quoting
as I have witnessed in sitting with congregations

Can I have an Amen??????!!!!!!!
and people start waving their hands and nodding their heads

Can I have a witness?????!!!!
and someone will have a personal story of pain and suffering
all made to go away by the believing in Someone greater

I am not opposed to miracles
let all be healed

I am not opposed to preaching
let they who have an ear....hear the Word

but I no longer stand with congregation
nor do I wish a following of my own

it would be well enough to look to my fellowman and say
brother and fellow servant
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thanks for the information provided in the post. It will be good if one makes threads on the issues raised by one in the post so that other members also give their views.

Regards
That may well be a good idea depending on the specific issue.

However, many times there is a need to keep the context in mind. That is particularly necessary when very specific words and ideas are discussed. Often they lose all true meaning without the proper context.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
That may well be a good idea depending on the specific issue.

However, many times there is a need to keep the context in mind. That is particularly necessary when very specific words and ideas are discussed. Often they lose all true meaning without the proper context.
Context of the verses in the text of the revealed scripture as also the time and place is always very important for a good understanding.

Regards
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Context of the verses in the text of the revealed scripture as also the time and place is always very important for a good understanding.

Regards
And yet very often specific verses are quoted without any context. I just don't get it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I wasn't thinking of you specificallly, @paarsurrey

Although I do hope to see you talk more about your own views as opposed to the scripture that you favor.

I hope that from most everyone, and you are better at that than most Muslims.
 
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