Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

[Muffled]

I can tell you're voting for Trump. This is just a giant wall of text.

I believe I held my nose and voted for Trump. The alternative was far worse.

 

[Blessed of JEHOVAH]

The Hebrew Writer Specifically and clearly denies that Jesus The Christ ,The only begotten of the Father was an angel Let alone an archangel.

Read again slowly

Hebrews 1 : 5 - 6 , to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father. This is a question imposed on the read. If Jesus was an archangel then the answer to the question would have been , Oh that angel over there,That one. But that was not the case You see. The scripture implies that none of the angels did the Majesty on High say you are my Son this day I have begotten you. So that Clearly demonstrates that Jesus was not an angel or archangel.

Second
The same with Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Same here This is a question imposed on the read. If Jesus was an archangel then the answer to the question would have been , Oh that angel over there,That one. But that was not the case You see. The scripture implies that none of the angels did the Majesty on High say sit at my right had until I make your enemies your foot stool So that Clearly demonstrates that Jesus was not an angel or archangel.


Third

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. You see Jesus was Made. (That word means Came into existence) Consistent with John 1:1 In the beginning was the word. And 1 John 1:1 The which was from the beginning. The word had a beginning . Rev 3:14 Jesus says he was the beginning of Gods creation.

Why was Jesus Name more excellent.? Because he was the only Heir Heb 1:5 Heb 1:2 John 3:16 and many others

Since the word is such that Jesus is made better than the angels. That exempts him from being an angel. How does it exempt him. The writer says by inheritance. You see Heb 1:2 Heb 1:4 appointed heir of all things. An heir signifies an offspring. In this case Gods only offspring Thus John 3:16 Only begotten on Again Heb 1:6 First begotten and many other scriptures. Thus Jesus is the only Heir. For God created Jesus and only him. If he is the only heir then hes the first thing The Majesty on High created and the Last Thing created. That makes him unique one of a kind ,Thus better than the angels.If you are the first of something and the last that makes you the only. The first and the last. The beginning and the end The alpha and omega are all figures of speech that signify the singular position of ONLY. The Majesty On High is the only God there is Isa 46:9 Im God theres none else Im God There none like me. Again Deu 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me:That makes him the alpha and omega,first and the last ,the beginning and the end. If you are the beginning of something and the end that makes you the only..

Example If you have an empty table and you place a glass of water on it. That makes it the first glass of water on the table . If no more are added, then it also makes the first glass of water the last glass of water. Now if that Glass of water is the first Glass and also the last Glass then it makes it the only glass on the Table.

You see they are all figures of speech As you know the Bible is full of figures of speech metaphors. Example eat my flesh drink my blood. If your eye offend you pluck it out.If your hand offend you cut it off.

Jesus being the only Son of God and the only heir. The beginning of Gods creation and the last direct creation .Rev 3:14 For Eph 3:9 and Col 1:16 says God instructed Jesus to creation everything else.
That makes him the alpha and omega,first and the last ,the beginning and the end. If you are the beginning of something and the end that makes you the only. The first and the last thing God directly created. Thats why Its a Father ans Son Team.

So the terms alpha and omega,first and the last ,the beginning and the end are figures of Speech. Apply to Both to The Majesty on High and the only begotten Son

Then as Eph 3:9 Says To make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world was hid in God who created all thing by Jesus Christ

So we see The majesty on High created Jesus and Jesus created everything else. Col 1:16 Jesus created the angels and all the world we see.

Fourth
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. We see here it clearly says angels are not in control of the world to come. Since we know that Jesus will be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords having full authority We can conclude his is not and Angel or an archangel For he says None of the angels has he put in subjection the world to come.

What does Jesus inherit. Dan 7:14-14 Jer 23:5-6 A kingdom that will never pass away. Angel do not inherit a Kingdom that will never pass away.

Hebrews 1st chapter demonstrates Jesus as exclusively unique and priviledged above the Angels but below the Majesty on high



You see Jesus is not and angel.

Jesus is an angel listen to the question in Hebrews 1 : 5 it's the same as a boss with his staff and there gathered for a meeting. He calls out an employee let's call him Michael and he says you are my supervisor. You can ask the question out of all the staff members which one did the boss call supervisor and because you are familiar with what's said ( just like you would be if you read the Bible accounts when Jehovah God called Jesus son) you'll say Michael.
Even if you don't believe that , you yourself said Jesus was Jehovah's son and the scripture says that out of all the angels Jesus was the only one called son. In a kingdom the son of the king is a prince and Jesus is the only prince in heaven according to Hebrews 1 : 5 he's even called the prince of peace . Now look at Daniel 12 : 1 and see who that prince

I believe that can't be in the text but must be a problem of translation since English does not have a word for supreme being so god doesn't cut it since it could mean any god so we capitalize it as "God" so that we understand it to mean supreme being. I believe the capitalizing of prince falls into the same category. I think the Hebrew doesn't have a word for supreme being either and they just figure it out by context.

I glanced over your rebuttles and all I see are people disagreeing for the sake of it. I'm not twisting anything . Even if you don't believe that Hebrews 1:5 is calling Jesus an angel it also said he was the only one called son you can't deny that and there's only one son of the king and in a kingdom the son of the king is a prince Jesus is known as the prince of peace supporting what I'm saying and you see in Daniel 12 : 1 who that prince is your the one trying to complicate putting the puzzle pieces together not me. This capital and lower case letters nonsense does not apply here. If Michael isn't the first born of all creation he shouldn't be a prince and Michael isn't just called a prince but a great prince. I'm done speaking about this your rebuttles make no sense it's simple the truth isn't complicated men make it that way. That's why I simplify as best I can.

 

[12jtartar]

Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

I see them as separate players on the same team.

George-nanda,
All the thing that you would expect Jesus to do, are also things that Michael does. Remember, many people in the Bible had several names, so why is it so hard to believe that Michael was Jesus’ name before he came to earth?
One Scripture seems to be a Proof Text, 1Thessalonians 4:16, which actually calls the lord, Michael. Michael means, Who is like God, which seem filling for Jesus and also the Bible mentions that Michael is The Archangel, or top, head Angel. Michael could hardly be anyone but Jesus!

 

[12jtartar]

I believe that can't be in the text but must be a problem of translation since English does not have a word for supreme being so god doesn't cut it since it could mean any god so we capitalize it as "God" so that we understand it to mean supreme being. I believe the capitalizing of prince falls into the same category. I think the Hebrew doesn't have a word for supreme being either and they just figure it out by context.

Muffled,
I would think that everyone would believe that the term Almighty, is mutually exclusive, meaning that only ONE can possibly be Omnipotent, Allpowerful, Almighty. This term was used many times in the Hebrew part of the Bible, Exodus 6:2,3, Genesis 17:1,35:11, Job 8:3, many more times. There is only ONE Supreme being, God, The Almighty, whose Personal, Proper Name is Jehovah, which means, He Causes to Become. Only The Supreme God can, rightly carry that Name, for no one else can cause everything to become just as He Purposed it to become.

 

[Muffled]

George-nanda,
All the thing that you would expect Jesus to do, are also things that Michael does. Remember, many people in the Bible had several names, so why is it so hard to believe that Michael was Jesus’ name before he came to earth?
One Scripture seems to be a Proof Text, 1Thessalonians 4:16, which actually calls the lord, Michael. Michael means, Who is like God, which seem filling for Jesus and also the Bible mentions that Michael is The Archangel, or top, head Angel. Michael could hardly be anyone but Jesus!

I believe there is no verse that connects the name Michael with Jesus.

I Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

I believe I do not see the name Michael in that text. "who id like God" is a question not a statement that he is.

I believe it does not fit because there are many verses that reveal that Jesus is God in the flesh so he would not be called like God.

I believe that can only happen in the convoluted logic of a JW leader and the zombie followers who can't think for themselves but have to parrot what they are taught.

 

[Muffled]

Muffled,
I would think that everyone would believe that the term Almighty, is mutually exclusive, meaning that only ONE can possibly be Omnipotent, Allpowerful, Almighty. This term was used many times in the Hebrew part of the Bible, Exodus 6:2,3, Genesis 17:1,35:11, Job 8:3, many more times. There is only ONE Supreme being, God, The Almighty, whose Personal, Proper Name is Jehovah, which means, He Causes to Become. Only The Supreme God can, rightly carry that Name, for no one else can cause everything to become just as He Purposed it to become.

I believe the Jury is still out on the meaning of the name. The Jews say it has no meaning. The meaning that you provided is an extrapolation of AYAH which basically means "I am the one who is." Literally "I am I exist." The reason JHVH is extrapolated from that is that God says it is also His name.

 

[metis]

There were some in the early church that believed Jesus might have been what may be called a "super-angel", thus being superior to the other angels, including the archangels, thus only being surpassed by God.

 

[Apologetics]

Jesus is an angel listen to the question in Hebrews 1 : 5 it's the same as a boss with his staff and there gathered for a meeting. He calls out an employee let's call him Michael and he says you are my supervisor. You can ask the question out of all the staff members which one did the boss call supervisor and because you are familiar with what's said ( just like you would be if you read the Bible accounts when Jehovah God called Jesus son) you'll say Michael.
Even if you don't believe that , you yourself said Jesus was Jehovah's son and the scripture says that out of all the angels Jesus was the only one called son. In a kingdom the son of the king is a prince and Jesus is the only prince in heaven according to Hebrews 1 : 5 he's even called the prince of peace . Now look at Daniel 12 : 1 and see who that prince

I glanced over your rebuttles and all I see are people disagreeing for the sake of it. I'm not twisting anything . Even if you don't believe that Hebrews 1:5 is calling Jesus an angel it also said he was the only one called son you can't deny that and there's only one son of the king and in a kingdom the son of the king is a prince Jesus is known as the prince of peace supporting what I'm saying and you see in Daniel 12 : 1 who that prince is your the one trying to complicate putting the puzzle pieces together not me. This capital and lower case letters nonsense does not apply here. If Michael isn't the first born of all creation he shouldn't be a prince and Michael isn't just called a prince but a great prince. I'm done speaking about this your rebuttles make no sense it's simple the truth isn't complicated men make it that way. That's why I simplify as best I can.

Listen again read slowly

Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

You see there, angels are not the ruling class in the Dan 7:13-14 Kingdom of Jesus. We know that Jesus is receiving this Dan 7:13 kingdom. Your contradicting this passage that clearly says Angels are not in control of the new kingdom!! Conclusion Jesus is not an Angel. Because Jesus will be the King over all the earth . Pslam 2 :8-9 And Heb 2:5 says For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come,

When Heb 1:2 calls him an heir. Heir speaks of a creation/offspring that you pass down your possessions to. Heb 1st chapter describes the exclusive unique privilege status that Jesus has with his father that the angels do not have
He clearly demonstrates how Jesus is above the angels but below the Masjesty by creation not by given authority (as in your analogy)for he says being made so much better than the angels as he has by inheritance obtain a more precious name than they Heb 1:4 The precious name (or as your analogy puts it supervisor) was not obtained because of an appointed
position (Like in your analogy) but because of inheritance. The only begotten.the first begotten. Jesus was the first thing God created and the last thing he directly created.

Heb 1:6 calls that heir the first begotten or first creation Rev 3:14 who was the only creation John 1:14 the only begotten.(The word Only means unique ,special, one of a kind)That only begotten created the angels and all that we see. Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: Also Heb 1:2 By who he made the world.

You see that word by. It means a task was performed or accomplished by the use of a tool or strategy. In this case God instructed his first creation Jesus to create all the angels and all that we see. Much like a builder uses subcontractors to get the work done.

Thus
In your boss analogy your assuming that this calling out was done in the presence of all the angels. This statement in Heb 1:5 happened before the angels were created. The phrase this day ,says at the very moment when God spoke Jesus into existence God spoke those words This day I have begotten you. That was when neither the angels nor the universe were created. It was just Jesus and his father. It was recorded after it happened for our understanding. Heb 1:6 demonstrates that the angel recognized the exclusive unique privileged status Jesus had with his father Thats what worship him means. When Jesus left his fathers side and became flesh

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same;

At least this is what I have come to understand. Thanks for the reply!

 

[74x12]

There's a lot of thoughts on this issue from the yes side and the no, but let me share with you what Jehovah shared with me through holy spirit. Jehovah God is the Supreme ruler the Alpha and Omega the King of the Universe right. Then who is the son of the King called ? Naturally the son of the King is called the Prince, and not just any son can be in line for kingship only the first born. Who's the only one Jehovah called his son and firstborn? Matthew 3 : 16 - 17 states 16) After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” Hebrews 1 : 5 - 6 states For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”? 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all of God’s angels do obeisance to him.” As you see here Jesus meets all the requirements, but how is he Michael the Arch Angel you say well lets see. In Joshua 5 : 14 - 15 it states 14 To this he said: “No, but I have come as prince of Jehovah’s army.” With that Joshua fell with his face to the ground and prostrated himself and said to him: “What does my lord have to say to his servant?” 15 The prince of Jehovah’s army replied to Joshua: “Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy.” At once Joshua did so. I showed you this scripture because I wanted you to see an appearance that this Prince of Jehovah's army made in the old testament. You know Archangel means Chief Angel now lets see what this Chief Angel does in Revelations 12 : 7 - 9 it states 7) And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. Now this Chief angel threw satan and his demons out of heaven now the only one that can exercise some of the Kings authority would be his Son the Prince now lets see how Daniel brings everything together. In the opening of Daniel 12 : 1 it states 12) “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. As you can see the bible calls Michael the Great prince and the Prince is the Son of the King and there's only one that Jehovah directly calls his son. Jesus Christ the Nazarene.

Jesus is the Son of God because He was born of the holy Spirit (Luke 1:35).
And because He is the first who rose again from the dead in a glorified form. (Rev. 1:5)

Jesus is not an angel as Hebrews 1:5-13 shows us.

Hebrews 1:5-13
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Jehovah's witnesses claim there are two gods for the people of God. First there is God the Father and then there is a (lower case) "god" the Word. We see this in their interpretation of John 1:1; where they insist it is speaking of two separate gods rather than one.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

So for the JWs there are two gods in fact and this is condemned by the holy scriptures at least twice:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

 

[Apologetics]

Jesus is the Son of God because He was born of the holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). Thats not really accurate. You see Jesus was Gods son before he came to earth.

1 John 4:9 God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.. Did you see that God sent His only son.

John describes right here that Jesus was a Son prior to coming to earth and was sent on a mission for his Father The Majesty oh High Heb 1:3

Again John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? You see Son of God before coming to earth.

Again John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Again Jesus existed as the only Son of God his Father before the earth was created.And many other scriptures.

Many people assume Jesus was only the Son of God after he was born on earth. Thats not true.

The few scripture Ive mentioned refute that.

In John 17:5 Jesus describes himself as a Son by addressing the Majesty on high as his Father.A relationship as a Son prior to coming to earth.
And because He is the first who rose again from the dead in a glorified form. (Rev. 1:5)

Jesus is not an angel as Hebrews 1:5-13 shows us. I agree Jesus is not an Angel!!!

Hebrews 1:5-13
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Jehovah's witnesses claim there are two gods for the people of God. First there is God the Father and then there is a (lower case) "god" the Word. We see this in their interpretation of John 1:1; where they insist it is speaking of two separate gods rather than one.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

So for the JWs there are two gods in fact and this is condemned by the holy scriptures at least twice:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

Agreed. What they confuse is the term God in the bible the term God in hebrew is elohim and in the greek Theos. But those words can at times given the context have a meaning other than divine. Ex In Psalm 82 the word Elohim is used 3 times translated as God. one of those is translated as god with a lower case to signify a ruler of an earth kingdom or a judge or someone incontrol. But in the hebrew they make no distinction they still use elohim. But given that the people of those times, they knew the difference . Just like in the english the word fly can mean an insect or to travel through the air. But the same word is used.

Again in 2 Cor 4:4 the writer used the greek word Theos translated to the english word god with a lower case g to describe Satan as the ruler of this world and not God the creator. But the same greek word for God Theos is used.

My point is this. Just because a passage has the word God in it Like Heb 1:8-9 it doesn't necessarily speak of the Majesty on high. In Heb 1:8-9 we have God speaking to another God Right. But look closely at the context one God is above theo the for one is anointing another above his fellows. Now The anointed is always below the one anointing Right.

So what Heb 1:8-9 is describing is Jesus The Son of the Majesty on high as an appointed ruler by the Majesty on high. For he says your throne o God is for ever and ever .Thats the Dan 7:13-14 Kingdom that Jesus receives from the Ancient of days who is the Majesty on High.

Again The superior God( Majesty on high) is giving to the subordinate Jesus ( god/Ruler/ Son of God).

So in Heb 1:8 The Son is called a God . But it is referring to The Son as ruler/king of a kingdom he will inherit. Psal 2:8-9 and Heb 1:2 hier of all things. We read over and over how Jesus is given authority and power 1 Pet 3:22 Mat 28:18

Any time one person is giving authority or commanding another person. The first is always superior and the second subordinate.

So yes there is only one God the Majesty on HIgh Due 32:39 There is no God with me Ish 46:9 I am God and there is none like me I am God and there is none else.

And there is only one only begotten Son of God whom God the Majesty on high as appointed heir of all things

The main objective the writer in the 1st chapter of Heb was emphasizing is this

Jesus has an exclusive ,unique,privilege relationship with his father that is above the angles but below the Majesty on high is Father.

 

[74x12]

Agreed. What they confuse is the term God in the bible the term God in hebrew is elohim and in the greek Theos. But those words can at times given the context have a meaning other than divine. Ex In Psalm 82 the word Elohim is used 3 times translated as God. one of those is translated as god with a lower case to signify a ruler of an earth kingdom or a judge or someone incontrol. But in the hebrew they make no distinction they still use elohim. But given that the people of those times, they knew the difference . Just like in the english the word fly can mean an insect or to travel through the air. But the same word is used.

Again in 2 Cor 4:4 the writer used the greek word Theos translated to the english word god with a lower case g to describe Satan as the ruler of this world and not God the creator. But the same greek word for God Theos is used.

My point is this. Just because a passage has the word God in it Like Heb 1:8-9 it doesn't necessarily speak of the Majesty on high. In Heb 1:8-9 we have God speaking to another God Right. But look closely at the context one God is above theo the for one is anointing another above his fellows. Now The anointed is always below the one anointing Right.

So what Heb 1:8-9 is describing is Jesus The Son of the Majesty on high as an appointed ruler by the Majesty on high. For he says your throne o God is for ever and ever .Thats the Dan 7:13-14 Kingdom that Jesus receives from the Ancient of days who is the Majesty on High.

Again The superior God( Majesty on high) is giving to the subordinate Jesus ( god/Ruler/ Son of God).

So in Heb 1:8 The Son is called a God . But it is referring to The Son as ruler/king of a kingdom he will inherit. Psal 2:8-9 and Heb 1:2 hier of all things. We read over and over how Jesus is given authority and power 1 Pet 3:22 Mat 28:18

Any time one person is giving authority or commanding another person. The first is always superior and the second subordinate.

So yes there is only one God the Majesty on HIgh Due 32:39 There is no God with me Ish 46:9 I am God and there is none like me I am God and there is none else.

And there is only one only begotten Son of God whom God the Majesty on high as appointed heir of all things

The main objective the writer in the 1st chapter of Heb was emphasizing is this

Jesus has an exclusive ,unique,privilege relationship with his father that is above the angles but below the Majesty on high is Father.

I don't deny that there are other "gods" (lower case) as in Psalms 82 and 1 Cor. 8:5. The point is there is only one Theos for the church. (1 Cor. 8:6) That is my whole point actually. So Jehovah's Witnesses and other people who believe Jesus is not The Theos but instead a subordinate "theos" are saying there are two theos for the church. Because logically you know that Jesus is set up as head over the church. (Eph. 5:23) So, you in effect are teaching that for the church there is the most High Theos(The Father) and another subordinate "theos" Lord Jesus. And you can't deny Jesus. So you have to say at least Jesus is everything said of Him in the scriptures. If the scripture calls Him theos in John 1:1 then He is what He is. So logically you are forced into defending the idea of two theos for the church. This is clearly refuted in the scriptures such as 1 Cor. 8:5. For the church there is but one Theos.

So the idea that Jesus is a subordinate "god" is completely refuted as far as I'm concerned. This leaves only one logical alternative. That Jesus is one and the same with the Father. (John 10:30)

 

[Apologetics]

I don't deny that there are other "gods" (lower case) as in Psalms 82 and 1 Cor. 8:5. The point is there is only one Theos for the church. (1 Cor. 8:6) That is my whole point actually. So Jehovah's Witnesses and other people who believe Jesus is not The Theos Oaky right here this statement you just made. Take a slow and careful reading of Heb 1:3 when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

look carefull at (sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high The writer just previous to this statement said this about Jesus Heb 1:2 (by whom he also made the worlds)

The writer in Heb 1:3 just emphatically and clearly states that the Jesus he knows that created the worlds is not the Majesty on High!!!. For he places the creator at the right hand (which in scripture is a place of honour) of someone greater than Jesus who created the worlds.

I dont want you to misunderstand me. Im not saying Jesus is a God like the Jehovah Witness. But I do have to follow what the eyewitness 1 Pet 2:16 taught. John 20:17 Jesus clearly demonstrates that there is someone superior to himself for he tells Mary I must ascend unto my God.

So Jesus has a God over him. Thats what it says.

Paul taught this as well Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Jesus whom Paul Met and knows says here, That Jesus is not the majesty on high. Also teaching Jesus has a God over him

And again Peter taught as well 1 Pet 1 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Jesus whom Peter spent 3 years with and knows says here that Jesus is not the majesty on high.
Also teaching Jesus has a God over him

Look at how consistent and one these founder were.If you will keep these thoughts in mind when you read John 1:1. You will have a better understanding

John 1:1 the subject is not God but the word. God did not have a beginning but the word did have a beginning. Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3 All demonstrate that Jesus was the first creation of and last direct creation of the Majesty on high.

Jesus then was appointed by the Majesty to create everything else. Eph 3:9 To make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which has been hid in God who created all thing by Jesus Christ.

Did you see there God who created all things (( how did he do it) By Jesus Christ.

So in John 1:1 We have an account of John the apostle describing how Jesus the word Rev 19:13 His name was called the word of( Or from ) God came into existence.

Where do words come from? Answer a Mouth. When John 1:1 says that God was the word and that is the greek wording of the phrase not the english wording.The english says and God was the word. Not that I think there's a difference.

Since all these scriptures Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3 demonstrate that Jesus was created at least they do for me thats what they say.

The the conclusion in John 1:1 is that Jesus was a word in the Majestys on highs mouth and was spoken into existence. Being The first thing and the last thing The majesty on high directly created.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word. 1 John also cements more clearly by saying That which was from the beginning. You see there, look at that wording from the beginning. very consistent with John 1:1 In the beginning and Rev 3:14 The beginning of the creation of God.

The word only in John 1:14 cements it further by saying only begotten. You see that word only. It means one of a kind, unique.And that is exactly how the 1st chapter of Hebrews describes Jesus Unique and privileged.

Which is very consistent with first and the last. beginning and the end, alpha and Omega.

You see if you have a table that has nothing on it. And you place a glass of water on it. That makes it the first glass of water. Now if no more glasses of water are placed on the table then that glass of water becomes the last glass of water on the table. So then that Glass of water is the first and the last glass of water. Thus it becomes the only Glass

Those phrases are figures of speech to illustrate a singular point of only.

John 1:1 is clearly understood only when you throw aside what man has taught and believe what the apostle wrote. And that is thatJesus was the beginning of Gods creation whom he spoke into existence by whom he made the worlds.

but instead a subordinate "theos" are saying there are two theos for the church. As I have above explain I do not believe there are two God for the church. Jesus is the Head of the church Col 1:18. Whom the Majesty on High created. Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3. Much like the way Jesus describe it in John 15:1 I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman.

Because logically you know that Jesus is set up as head over the church. (Eph. 5:23) Yes So, you in effect are teaching that for the church there is the most High Theos(The Father) and another subordinate "theos" Lord Jesus. No. The Majesty on High has no beginning and is the almighty what we all consider God divine .Jesus is a creation of the majesty on high as I have previously pointed out with many passages. Jesus is inferior to the Majesty on High John 14:28 my father is greater than I .

Dont confuse the terminology The word thoes and elohim are also used to identify a ruler not always and immortal being. So when you read Heb 1:8 the Son is also called a God (thy throne O God) Is referring to Jesus who will inherit all things Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me and I will give you the heathen for your inheritance and the utter most parts of the earth to possess. And again Dan 7:13-14 The everlasting Kingdom the Ancient of Day( Who is the Majesty on high ) Gave him by inheritance. That the inheritance spoken of in Heb 1:2

So know Jesus is not a God!!

And you can't deny Jesus.No I will not. So you have to say at least Jesus is everything said of Him in the scriptures. Correct Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3.

If the scripture calls Him theos in John 1:1 John 1:1 is not teaching that Jesus is the Majesty on high. The hebrew writer refutes that the word in John 1:1 is the majesty on high. Heb 1:3. Clearly demonstrates that Jesus who created the world is not the Majesty on high. Thats clear.

then He is what He is. So logically you are forced into defending the idea of two theos for the church. No my position is state above on the matter This is clearly refuted in the scriptures such as 1 Cor. 8:5. For the church there is but one Theos. That is correct who is the Majesty on high. Whom the hebrew writer said that Jesus who created the worlds was not the Majesty on high.. Heb 1:3

So the idea that Jesus is a subordinate "god" Jesus is subordinate because the words that Jesus used like My father is greater than I John 14:28 . My father sent me John 8:16. I can do nothing of my self John 5:19 I came down not to do my own will John 6:38 All power is given me Mat 28:18 angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him 1et 3:22 and so many more .

All these words in these passages place jesus in a subordinate position. That's what they say. Jesus said John 17 :20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

We have their word and thats what I believe!!!

is completely refuted as far as I'm concerned. This leaves only one logical alternative. That Jesus is one and the same with the Father. No . Go back to Heb 1:3 It can't be denied that the Jesus Paul knew and wrote about says that Jesus who created the worlds is not the Majesty on High.

If then Paul taught thats Jesus was not the Majesty on high then Jesus and his father are not the same.



(John 10:30)

 

[74x12]

Apologetics, no offense but can you please use the quote feature next time? It's hard to deal with otherwise. Thank you.

Oaky right here this statement you just made. Take a slow and careful reading of Heb 1:3 when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
look carefull at (sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high The writer just previous to this statement said this about Jesus Heb 1:2 (by whom he also made the worlds)
The writer in Heb 1:3 just emphatically and clearly states that the Jesus he knows that created the worlds is not the Majesty on High!!!. For he places the creator at the right hand (which in scripture is a place of honour) of someone greater than Jesus who created the worlds.
I dont want you to misunderstand me. Im not saying Jesus is a God like the Jehovah Witness. But I do have to follow what the eyewitness 1 Pet 2:16 taught. John 20:17 Jesus clearly demonstrates that there is someone superior to himself for he tells Mary I must ascend unto my God.
So Jesus has a God over him. Thats what it says.

Yes He sat down on the right hand. This is in glorified human form. The Son of man must sit on the right hand until all humanities enemies are made His footstool. This fulfilled the prophecy of Psalms 8:6 as well as other verses. The enemies of mankind are sin, satan and ultimately death. All these enemies have been or are being put under the feet of the Son of man: Jesus. This is in order that He can save mankind.

As a human He certainly Had a God and a Creator: the Father as He said. This is not a surprise as He is fully human. (Hebrews 10:5) As for the worlds being made through Him I'll get into that further on. This is interesting how this happens.

Paul taught this as well Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Jesus whom Paul Met and knows says here, That Jesus is not the majesty on high. Also teaching Jesus has a God over him
And again Peter taught as well 1 Pet 1 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Jesus whom Peter spent 3 years with and knows says here that Jesus is not the majesty on high.
Also teaching Jesus has a God over him
Look at how consistent and one these founder were.If you will keep these thoughts in mind when you read John 1:1. You will have a better understanding
John 1:1 the subject is not God but the word. God did not have a beginning but the word did have a beginning. Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6John 1:3 All demonstrate that Jesus was the first creation of and last direct creation of the Majesty on high.
Jesus then was appointed by the Majesty to create everything else. Eph 3:9 To make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which has been hid in God who created all thing by Jesus Christ.
Did you see there God who created all things (( how did he do it) By Jesus Christ.
So in John 1:1 We have an account of John the apostle describing how Jesus the word Rev 19:13 His name was called the word of( Or from ) God came into existence.

Jesus in human form is certainly the chief creation of God and the firstborn of all creation. The point here is to understand that as a human being(Jesus constantly referred to Himself as the "Son of man") Jesus had a God and was created bodily in the womb. (Luke 1:35, Hebrews 10:5) I will discuss how God created all things by Jesus Christ later on.

Where do words come from? Answer a Mouth. When John 1:1 says that God was the word and that is the greek wording of the phrase not the english wording.The english says and God was the word. Not that I think there's a difference.
Since all these scriptures Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3 demonstrate that Jesus was created at least they do for me thats what they say.
The the conclusion in John 1:1 is that Jesus was a word in the Majestys on highs mouth and was spoken into existence. Being The first thing and the last thing The majesty on high directly created.

Jesus the Word is the Light of the world. This is the light of Genesis 1:3 and this is the light in which God created the 7 days of creation. Therefore all things were made in His Light and yes Jesus has a beginning in this world. As Genesis 1:3 says God said "Let there be Light". The Light was not created but what is beginning about Jesus is that the Light is finally shining in the world. (John 1:9-10) This Word from the Father is "Let there be Light" and the Light is God indwelling human flesh. Remember that God is Light. (1 John 1:5) So, it's not that the Light is being created but that it is being introduced into the world which was before this darkened. (Isaiah 9:1-2)
The fact that Jesus is said to lighten everyone who comes into the world. (John 1:9) Is evidence that He is God manifest. As we see in James 1:17 that God is called the "Father of lights". So in John 1:9 we see that Jesus is actually the Father of lights.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the word. 1 John also cements more clearly by saying That which was from the beginning. You see there, look at that wording from the beginning. very consistent with John 1:1 In the beginning and Rev 3:14 The beginning of the creation of God.
The word only in John 1:14 cements it further by saying only begotten. You see that word only. It means one of a kind, unique.And that is exactly how the 1st chapter of Hebrews describes Jesus Unique and privileged.
Which is very consistent with first and the last. beginning and the end, alpha and Omega.
You see if you have a table that has nothing on it. And you place a glass of water on it. That makes it the first glass of water. Now if no more glasses of water are placed on the table then that glass of water becomes the last glass of water on the table. So then that Glass of water is the first and the last glass of water. Thus it becomes the only Glass
Those phrases are figures of speech to illustrate a singular point of only.
John 1:1 is clearly understood only when you throw aside what man has taught and believe what the apostle wrote. And that is thatJesus was the beginning of Gods creation whom he spoke into existence by whom he made the worlds.

Jesus is the first thing God speaks in Genesis 1:3 that is how He is the beginning of God's creation and how all creation was made in the Light of 7 days this Light was Jesus Christ who is God incarnate. Unless you make the connection with Genesis 1:3; then you won't really understand John chapter 1 or 1st John chapter 1 either. Both are speaking of the same revelation.

but instead a subordinate "theos" are saying there are two theos for the church. As I have above explain I do not believe there are two God for the church. Jesus is the Head of the church Col 1:18. Whom the Majesty on High created. Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3. Much like the way Jesus describe it in John 15:1 I am the true vine and my Father is the husbandman.
Because logically you know that Jesus is set up as head over the church. (Eph. 5:23) Yes So, you in effect are teaching that for the church there is the most High Theos(The Father) and another subordinate "theos" Lord Jesus. No. The Majesty on High has no beginning and is the almighty what we all consider God divine .Jesus is a creation of the majesty on high as I have previously pointed out with many passages. Jesus is inferior to the Majesty on High John 14:28 my father is greater than I .
Dont confuse the terminology The word thoes and elohim are also used to identify a ruler not always and immortal being. So when you read Heb 1:8 the Son is also called a God (thy throne O God) Is referring to Jesus who will inherit all things Psalm 2:8-9 Ask of me and I will give you the heathen for your inheritance and the utter most parts of the earth to possess. And again Dan 7:13-14 The everlasting Kingdom the Ancient of Day( Who is the Majesty on high ) Gave him by inheritance. That the inheritance spoken of in Heb 1:2
So know Jesus is not a God!!

Theos means Theos and doesn't mean anything else. So when John 1:1 calls Jesus Theos and Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus Elohim, then we know that there is something to it. Jesus is definitely a God and you cannot deny John 1:1 or Isaiah 9:6.

So you have to say at least Jesus is everything said of Him in the scriptures. Correct Rev 3:14 Col 1:18 1 John 1:1 Col 3:10 Heb 1:6 John 1:3.
... John 1:1 is not teaching that Jesus is the Majesty on high. The hebrew writer refutes that the word in John 1:1 is the majesty on high. Heb 1:3. Clearly demonstrates that Jesus who created the world is not the Majesty on high. Thats clear.
...
No my position is state above on the matter
...
That is correct who is the Majesty on high. Whom the hebrew writer said that Jesus who created the worlds was not the Majesty on high.. Heb 1:3
... Jesus is subordinate because the words that Jesus used like My father is greater than I John 14:28 . My father sent me John 8:16. I can do nothing of my self John 5:19 I came down not to do my own will John 6:38 All power is given me Mat 28:18 angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him 1 et 3:22 and so many more .

You're saying the Son of man is subordinate to the God. Correct. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) and of course He is greater than the Son of man Jesus. However, Jesus the Son is God manifest.

All these words in these passages place jesus in a subordinate position. That's what they say. Jesus said John 17 :20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
We have their word and thats what I believe!!!
... No . Go back to Heb 1:3 It can't be denied that the Jesus Paul knew and wrote about says that Jesus who created the worlds is not the Majesty on High.
If then Paul taught thats Jesus was not the Majesty on high then Jesus and his father are not the same.

Paul never says Jesus is not the Majesty on High. On the contrary we find that Paul teaches in Philippians 2:5-11 that Jesus was in the form of God and took on Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men(The Son of God) and humbled Himself to the cross. Thus, then God exalted Him over all other humans because He showed Himself worthy and when we say that Jesus is Lord we do so to the glory of the Father. This is because Jesus is the Father manifest. So when you say He (the Son) is Lord then you say this unto the glory of God the Father.

Secondly we find that Paul teaches in Colossians 1:19 that it pleased all the Fullness(of God obviously) to dwell in Jesus and in Colossians 2:8-9 that in Jesus' human body dwells all the fullness of the Divine nature bodily. That is to say that Jesus is God manifest. His human nature was the exact imprint or image of God. God gave us this image so that we would know His true image and not make to ourselves images out of our own imagination like they did with the golden calves or any other idol. So, Jesus is the invisible God manifest in human form and His human nature is the exact imprint of the invisible God's own likeness.

 

[Apologetics]

Ill try okay

 

[Apologetics]

Okay If your having problems Ill redo it if you Like!!! I just inserted my response in your quotes.

 

[Apologetics]

Yes He sat down on the right hand. This is in glorified human form. The Son of man must sit on the right hand until all humanities enemies are made His footstool. This fulfilled the prophecy of Psalms 8:6 as well as other verses. The enemies of mankind are sin, satan and ultimately death. All these enemies have been or are being put under the feet of the Son of man: Jesus. This is in order that He can save mankind.

Jesus was already at the right had the Majesty on high prior to coming to earth. The Hebrew writer in the first 1st chapter portrays Jesus as being exclusively unique and privileged . Before the Angels were created.Being made better than the angles Heb 1:4. Thats a place of honour and preeminence. At the right hand before the angels were created ,before the world was.


You are mistaken in thing that Jesus was only at the right after his resurrection!! No .He was at the right hand ( Place of honour) prior to coming to earth.


His form doesn't change who he was before he came to earth or after he came. The person of Jesus resides in his mind not his form. For he says John 6:38. I came down from heaven. Not to do my own will. But the will of the father.


Look at that really close. Jesus had his own will before he came to earth that was different than his fathers will. Thats two distinct individuals before coming to earth.


Before he came to earth he was subordinate to the Majesty on High His Father.

Your teaching that Jesus was only at the right hand after his resurrection is false. You come only to that conclusion because you have to interpret based on the false premise that Jesus is God. BUt Heb 1:3 Says NO It plainly demonstrates Jesus the creator of the world sat down next to someone HIgher than himself. Thats Scripture.

 

[Apologetics]

Yes He sat down on the right hand. This is in glorified human form. The Son of man must sit on the right hand until all humanities enemies are made His footstool. This fulfilled the prophecy of Psalms 8:6 as well as other verses. The enemies of mankind are sin, satan and ultimately death. All these enemies have been or are being put under the feet of the Son of man: Jesus. This is in order that He can save mankind.

.I would say Rom 8:7 describes the enemy. The carnal mind is enmity against God. That is disobedience to Gods ways and law.

 

[Apologetics]

As a human He certainly Had a God and a Creator: the Father as He said. This is not a surprise as He is fully human. (Hebrews 10:5) As for the worlds being made through Him I'll get into that further on. This is interesting how this happens.

Look real close again John 20:17 Jesus was already resurrected when he made that statement. He was not a human when he made that statement. So it still remains that Jesus confessed after his resurrection that he has a God over him

Further More to set it more firmly in concrete Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, This was after he returned to Heaven. So we have Jesus returned to heaven declaring He has a God that is his creator Father who is greater than himself John 14:28. Look at how consistent the Writers are

 

[Apologetics]

Jesus in human form is certainly the chief creation of God and the firstborn of all creation. The point here is to understand that as a human being(Jesus constantly referred to Himself as the "Son of man") Jesus had a God and was created bodily in the womb. (Luke 1:35, Hebrews 10:5) I will discuss how God created all things by Jesus Christ later on.

No .Jesus was the chief/first creation of God before he was a human. For he says John 17:5 Glorify me with your own self with the Glory I had with you before the world was.

Your teaching that Jesus was the first creation of God only when he was born of the virgin Mary. You teach this from the premise that Jesus is God. Therefore you interpret with a predispose concept of who Jesus is. There fore you understanding is skewed. John 17:5 Glorify me with your own self with the Glory I had with you before the world was. This passage makes it very clear to me. A conversation between two person. One declaring he existed before the worlds were created. The other being declared his creator Father. Once again consistent with Heb 1:3 Jesus his not the Majesty on HIgh

 

[Apologetics]

Jesus the Word is the Light of the world. This is the light of Genesis 1:3 and this is the light in which God created the 7 days of creation. Therefore all things were made in His Light and yes Jesus has a beginning in this world. As Genesis 1:3 says God said "Let there be Light". The Light was not created but what is beginning about Jesus is that the Light is finally shining in the world. (John 1:9-10) This Word from the Father is "Let there be Light" and the Light is God indwelling human flesh. Remember that God is Light. (1 John 1:5) So, it's not that the Light is being created but that it is being introduced into the world which was before this darkened. (Isaiah 9:1-2)
The fact that Jesus is said to lighten everyone who comes into the world. (John 1:9) Is evidence that He is God manifest. As we see in James 1:17 that God is called the "Father of lights". So in John 1:9 we see that Jesus is actually the Father of lights.

No. Genesis is all about physical creation/Matter as we call it. When Jesus said he was the light of the world. It was a figure of speech. Light gives exposure. The Gospel of Jesus is the Light .2 Tim 1:10 Who brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.Its the exposing message of sin in our lives thats the light.


You

and this is the light in which God created the 7 days of creation No Therefore all things were made in His Light and yes Jesus has a beginning in this world. No John 17:5 Glorify me with your own self with the Glory I had with you before the world was

Again you are teaching that Jesus did not exist prior to being born on earth. What you call his beginning. But John 17:5 Is clear. You have to decide weather your going to believe what Jesus said. or continue to believe the false doctrine That Jesus is God.

Jesus clearly explains that he as an individual separate from his father the majesty on high existed prior to the earth being created. For he said Glorify Me ( Thats 1 person) your ownself ( Thats the 2 nd person) Very distinct difference.


You
This Word from the Father is "Let there be Light" and the Light is God indwelling human flesh

No . The Gospel of Jesus is the Light .2 Tim 1:10 Who brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.Its the exposing message of sin that is in our life that the gospel brings to light/exposes

You

Remember that God is Light. (1 John 1:5) Yes That's a figure of speech referring to the knowledge /understanding of Gods Laws his will 1 Col 1:9-10. that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Thats what Light means

So why do we need this knowledge that Paul speaks about . So that we can please God in everything he says. Thats the light of understanding how to walk in the Spirit where there is no condemnation. Rom 8:1


You

So, it's not that the Light is being created but that it is being introduced into the world which was before this darkened. (Isaiah 9:1-2) Again Isa is referring to 2 Tim 1:9-10.

You

The fact that Jesus is said to lighten everyone who comes into the world. (John 1:9) Again it refers to 2 Tim 1:9-10. Is evidence that He is God manifest. No it doesn't . It just means he is fulfilling the mission his Father the Majesty on high sent him on. Which is Math 18:11 Came to save that which was lost.

You see because Jesus in your eyes is God you interpret everything accordingly. But No Heb 1:3 Is clear. Jesus is not the Majesty on High

You
As we see in James 1:17 that God is called the "Father of lights". Yes the bible is full of figures of speech like if your eye offend you pluck it out. If your hand offends you cut it off. Eat my flesh/ drink my blood. Pauls said he robbed churches. You know that!! Father of lights is a figure of speech for the source of all knowledge.


So in John 1:9 we see that Jesus is actually the Father of lights. No again. The Gospel of Jesus is the Light .2 Tim 1:10 Who brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.Its the exposing message of sin that is in our lives that the gospel brings to light/exposes

You concept of who Jesus is,is in conflict with Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High and John 20:17 Jesus has a God over him after his resurrection and Rev 3:12 Jesus has a god over him while being returned to heaven.