Is Jesus the Archangel Michael ?

[Apologetics]

Jesus is the first thing God speaks in Genesis 1:3 that is how He is the beginning of God's creation and how all creation was made in the Light of 7 days this Light was Jesus Christ who is God incarnate. Unless you make the connection with Genesis 1:3; then you won't really understand John chapter 1 or 1st John chapter 1 either. Both are speaking of the same revelation.

You
Jesus is the first thing God speaks in Genesis 1:3 No John 17:5 Glory I had with you before the world was.that is how He is the beginning of God's creation No No No John 17:5 Glory I had with you before the world was. Jesus says he existed before creation. Before Genesis 1:3 Jesus was.

You
and how all creation was made in the Light of 7 days this Light was Jesus Christ who is God incarnate. No No No. Let me remind you Heb 1:3 The hebrew writer describes the Jesus he knows as not being the Majesty on High. Not God as you put it.

You concept of who Jesus is,is in conflict with Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High and John 20:17 Jesus has a God over him after his resurrection and Rev 3:12 Jesus has a God over him while being returned to heaven.

You are describing a different Jesus than the Hebrews 1:3 Writer. He doesn't know the Jesus your describing.

You
Unless you make the connection with Genesis 1:3; There is no connection then you won't really understand John chapter 1 or 1st John chapter 1 either. Both are speaking of the same revelation. Yes The revelation that the Word had a beginning not The Majesty on high.

 

[Apologetics]

Theos means Theos and doesn't mean anything else. So when John 1:1 calls Jesus Theos and Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus Elohim, then we know that there is something to it. Jesus is definitely a God and you cannot deny John 1:1 or Isaiah 9:6.

You
Theos means Theos and doesn't mean anything else. Why sure it does Look 2 Cor 4:4 theos is used to refer to Satan as a ruler of this world,not the Majesty on High.

You
So when John 1:1 calls Jesus Theos and Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus Elohim, then we know that there is something to it. No No No. John 1:1 is all about the word having a beginning not the Majesty on High prior to the creation of this world. The Majesty on High has no beginning.


The theos in John 1:1 is the Majesty on High who spoke Jesus the word into existence. Thats why Jesus is referred to as the word of God Rev 19:13. In John 1:1 Jesus is a word in the mouth of the Majesty on high that was spoken into existence. The beginning of the creation of God Rev 3:14

Thus In the Beginning was the word.


The Theos in Isa 9:6 is referring to the Dan 7:13-14 Kingdom that the Majesty on High gives Jesus. as well as Jer 23:5-6 Heb 1:8 Psalm 2:8-9 Isa 2:4 Luke 1:32-33 and many more ,that speak about the everlasting Kingdom that Jesus Rules ( The mighty God) whose authority to rule the earth was ordained by the the Majesty on High. Jer 23:5-6 Heb 1:8 Psalm 2:8-9 Isa 2:4 Luke 1:32-33


So to be clear The theos in John 1;1 is not the same as the theos in Isa 9:6


Notice how I always stay with what the apostle taught in Heb 1:3. and what Jesus said In John 20:17 and Rev 3:12 Why because they are key principles in understanding the other passages that people use Like you have , to prove that Jesus is God.


You see you if will keep in mind how The hebrew writer describes Jesus as not being the Majesty on High and in a subordinate position.


When you do come to The I am passage In John 8:58 and the Might God passage in Isa 9:6 and the My Lord and my God passage in John 20:28 and if you've seen me you've seen the father passage John 14:9 and a few others.


You will know that those passage are not referring to Jesus being God.


For if Jesus said after his resurrection and while in heaven that he has a God superior to himself. And If the Hebrew writer portrays the same by saying that the creator of the world sat at the right had of the Majesty on High some one higher than himself.


Then Based on these 2 passage Jesus can't be the Majesty on High!!!!! God .

 

[Apologetics]

quote

Jesus is definitely a God

Yes the ruler of the Daniel 7:13-14 earthly Kingdom that the Majesty on High gives him. And I would bring to your attention that Dan 7:13-14 speaks of the ancient of Days ( The Majesty on High) and one like the son of man ( Jesus the Christ)


Again demonstrating 2 distinct individuals .One receiving authority he does not possess Jesus the Christ ( Son of Man) the subordinate. And one giving authority The Majesty on High ( Ancient of days) The superior.

 

[Apologetics]

and you cannot deny John 1:1 or Isaiah 9:6.


Again Isa and Daniel on the same page speaking the same prophecy. Isa speaks of the Dan 7:13-14 earthly Kingdom that the Majesty on High gives him. And John describing the beginning of The word not the beginning of the Majesty on high.

they do not prove that Jesus is God!!

 

[Apologetics]

You're saying the Son of man is subordinate to the God. Correct. God is a Spirit. (John 4:24) and of course He is greater than the Son of man Jesus. However, Jesus the Son is God manifest.

Yes subordinate to the Majesty on High as the Hebrew writer portrays. God is a Spirit. Yes but the bible also says that that Spirit sees.hears and speaks, has hands and eyes.

You
(John 4:24) and of course He is greater than the Son of man Jesus.However, Jesus the Son is God manifest.

No The Hebrew 1:3 writer portrays Jesus as subordinate to the Majesty on High. also Portrays Jesus as not being the Majesty on High. The Son has a God over him. John 20:17 Rev 3:12


Im always going to pivot to those 3 passage Heb 1:3 and John 20:17 Rev 3:12 those are the keys.

 

[Apologetics]

Paul never says Jesus is not the Majesty on High. On the contrary we find that Paul teaches in Philippians 2:5-11 that Jesus was in the form of God and took on Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men(The Son of God) and humbled Himself to the cross. Thus, then God exalted Him over all other humans because He showed Himself worthy and when we say that Jesus is Lord we do so to the glory of the Father. This is because Jesus is the Father manifest. So when you say He (the Son) is Lord then you say this unto the glory of God the Father.

You
Paul never says Jesus is not the Majesty on High. That is true . He didn't have to spell it out ,he painted a picture with words to demonstrate it. He portrays Jesus as not being the Majesty on High

How does he do this???

He does this by saying That the creator Heb 1:2 sat down at the right hand of someone greater than himself. The Majesty on High. Heb 1:3 Thats a word picture demonstrating that Jesus the creator is not the Majesty on High for the picture plainly places Jesus next to a being thats Higher than himself.!!!

You
On the contrary we find that Paul teaches in Philippians 2:5-11 that Jesus was in the form of God

Yes again remember Heb 1:3 and John 20:17 Rev 3:12 Jesus is not the Majesty on high and Jesus has a God over him. So Paul is using a figure of speech. The form he is referring to is Holiness without fault, sinless . You know how 1 Pet 1:16 taught that we should also take that same form Be holy as I am Holy.


Did you see that. You and I are to take that same Form, Holiness! Again 2Cor 3;18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Did you see that ,You and I are to change into that same image of Glory. The form of God .Holiness!!

and took on Himself the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men(The Son of God) and humbled Himself to the cross. Thus, then God exalted Him over all other humans because He showed Himself worthy No Jesus was already exalted above all creation before the world was John 17:5 He has the preeminence Col 1:18 being the first creation of God the beginning .and when we say that Jesus is Lord we do so to the glory of the Father. This is because Jesus is the Father manifest. No Jesus is not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 and Jesus has a God over him John 20:17 Rev 3:12

So when you say He (the Son) is Lord then you say this unto the glory of God the Father.

 

[Apologetics]

Secondly we find that Paul teaches in Colossians 1:19 that it pleased all the Fullness(of God obviously) to dwell in Jesus and in Colossians 2:8-9 that in Jesus' human body dwells all the fullness of the Divine nature bodily. That is to say that Jesus is God manifest. His human nature was the exact imprint or image of God. God gave us this image so that we would know His true image and not make to ourselves images out of our own imagination like they did with the golden calves or any other idol. So, Jesus is the invisible God manifest in human form and His human nature is the exact imprint of the invisible God's own likeness.

You
Secondly we find that Paul teaches in Colossians 1:19 that it pleased all the Fullness(of God obviously) to dwell in Jesus No Lets look very closely at what Paul is teaching in Col 1:15-19


Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: Notice he does not say Who is God But Who is the image of God. That is Holiness ,without sin ,faultless Just has God is Holy and faultless


Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Thats very consistent with John 1:1 and 1 st John 1;1 and John 17:5 and Heb 1:2 and many more Rev 3:14 The beginning of the creation of God. The first thing The Majesty on High created and the last thing The Majesty directly created.


Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Again he refers to Jesus as the beginning as I have spoken about before, first born from the dead That in all things he might have the Preeminence .Jesus is always in first place. First to be created. First to die and live again never to die again.

Col 1:9 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Look at the word fulness very closely and the phrase that in all things ( Fulness and all things have the same meaning)

That he might have the preeminence. Preeminence means superior to all angels and all mankind. But not superior to the Majesty on High.Heb 1:3

Col 1:15-19 is a description of how Jesus in all things( all aspect) is superior to all angels and all mankind. But not superior to the Majesty on High


1. He is the first born of God .The first thing God created before the physical world.Col 1:15

2.He and only he was given authority to create the worlds .Col 1:16

3. He is before all things.Rev 3:15 The beginning of the creation of the Majesty on High Col 1:17

4 Again By him all things consist. Hes the creator Col 1:17

5. He is the head of the Body. Figure of speech .The ruler of the church Col 1:18 Eph 5:30

6 Who is the beginning Again Rev 3:15 The beginning of the creation of the Majesty on High Col 1:18

7 The first born from the dead. That is the first human to rise from the dead and never die again. for Jesus resurrect many people like lazareth but they all died again. But Jesus is the only Human that died and rose again never to die again. Col 1:18


All that is a description of the fulness that God put in Jesus.


You see Jesus was in first place in everything.That's preeminence. Thats what fullness in him dwell means.,


It is no way saying Jesus was God.at all when you look at the context .


So when he says Col 2:19 For it pleased the father that in him all fullness should dwell.It simply means it pleased The Majesty on High to make Jesus superior in all aspect to angels and mankind.

You
and in Colossians 2:8-9 that in Jesus' human body dwells all the fullness of the Divine nature

No. Hes not talking about his fleshly Body But the The Body of Christ. Body of believers!!

Col 1:18 establishes what the term Body means prior to Col 2:8-9

Follow the context. Col 1:18 says he is the head of the Body ( You know hes not talking about his fleshly body) But Ruler of you and me the church. Eph 5:30 For we are members of his Body flesh and Bone.

You see Body is a figures of speech /metaphors

The body is a figure of speech for the followers of Jesus In Col 2:8-9 Paul is warning the followers not to listen to the philosophers about how to live their lives.. Not to follow the traditions of men about how to live their lives. Not to follow the rudiments of the world on how to live their lives.

But to follow the teachings of Jesus on how to live their lives.

For in Him ( The Body of Christ, not his fleshly Body) Eph 5:30 we who are his body/flesh and bone that body) Dwells the fullness of the Godhead Bodily. ( The body of Christ that contains everything needed to please the Majesty on High)

Again remember Heb 1:3 Jesus is not the Majesty on High and John 20:17 Rev 3:12 Jesus has a God over him are key principle passages that steer one away from thinking this passage proves that Jesus is God.

The Godhead word simply means under The Majesty on Highs authority.. You see God appointed Jesus head of the church and put all thing under his feet.Eph 1:22-23 And Gave him a Kingdom Dan 7:13-14 Jesus did not do it of his own accord.

Heb 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; You see Jesus did not make himself a high priest but the Majesty on high made him a high priest!!

Eph 1:22-23 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

You see there the church is referred to as his body. That has the fullness of God. Just Like Col 2:8-9. is referring too.

What is that fulness????

Eph 4:11 apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Everything a soul needs to please the Majesty on high become an overcomer, with out sin.without fault blameless. 1Pet 4:1-2

You
That is to say that Jesus is God manifest. No Jesus is not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 Jesus has a God over him 20:17 Rev 3:12

You
His human nature was the exact imprint or image of God.No Jesus had to deny his human nature for 33 1/2 years.Math 16:24 Heb 4:15 Tempted in every point like as we yet without sin.

God gave us this image so that we would know His true image and not make to ourselves images out of our own imagination like they did with the golden calves or any other idol. So, Jesus is the invisible God No jesus is not the Majesty on High Heb 1:3 Jesus has a God over him John 20:17 manifest in human form and His human nature is the exact imprint of the invisible God's own likeness.[/QUOTE]

 

[74x12]

Since you repeated your arguments about Hebrews 1:3 so many times and seem convinced that it completely refutes me. I'll address that argument first. You seem to ignore the fact that the writer says "when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"

So do you understand how Jesus purged our sins? Through the cross and the resurrection. This only further makes my point. Jesus sits on the right hand after the resurrection.

 

[Apologetics]

Since you repeated your arguments about Hebrews 1:3 so many times and seem convinced that it completely refutes me. I'll address that argument first. You seem to ignore the fact that the writer says "when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"

So do you understand how Jesus purged our sins? Through the cross and the resurrection. This only further makes my point. Jesus sits on the right hand after the resurrection.

Yes That is true. But you assume he was never at the right hand before the Resurrection. As a matter of logistics he left his Fathers side. But as a matter of Honor Jesus never left the Right hand of The Majesty on High He just returned to that place of honor( logistically at his Fathers Side) that he left when his father sent him to earth .The right hand always is a place of honor. As I pointed out before Jesus was in that place of honor long before the world was created John 17:5 For he says With the Glory I had with you before the world was.

Did You see that .Before the world was he was in that place of honor.

That Glory is the status of honor. That no other creation had or has. You see he was made better than the angels Heb 1:4 Thats honor .You see Jesus has the preeminence. Col 1:18 That is first place in everything. Thats Honor. First to be created.first to rise from the dead never to die again For death has no more dominion over him Rom 6:9 Thats honor

 

[74x12]

Yes That is true. But you assume he was never at the right hand before the Resurrection. He just returned to that place of honor that he left when his father sent him to earth .The right hand always is a place of honor. As I pointed out before Jesus was in that place of honor long before the world was created John 17:5 For he says With the Glory I had with you before the world was.

John 17:5 is about the predestined glory Jesus had with the Father before the world was. This glory was predestined to Him before the world was. As in 1 Peter 1:19-21 and Romans 8:29.

In 1 Peter 1:19-21 we see that Christ was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world and that God gave Him glory. This is glory Jesus is talking about in John 17:5. Jesus was speaking of His death and the glory He would have because of the resurrection and ascension into heaven.

1 Peter 1:19-21
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.


Col 1:15 says He is the "firstborn" of every creature. Adam was the created son of God (Luke 3:38) but only Jesus was born of the Father. (Luke 1:35)

Luke 1:35 tells us the reason why Jesus is called the Son of God. It says He will be called the Son of God because He is born of the holy Spirit. We see that the word "therefore" means "for that reason;" So, Jesus is called the Son of God for the reason that He is born of the holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

 

[Apologetics]

John 17:5 is about the predestined glory Jesus had with the Father before the world was. This glory was predestined to Him before the world was. As in 1 Peter 1:19-21 and Romans 8:29.

John 17:5 says he had Glory before the world began. Look at the word Had. Thats past tense. There is nothing that says Jesus is talking about the promised or coming Glory he is to receive as in Dan 7:13-14 King of an everlasting Kingdom.


He had glory in many ways already before the world was. Your teaching its about a coming glory as in not receive as of yet. Your adding to the scriptures.


EX John 6:61. What if you see the son of man ascend up where he was before. Did you see that. Where he was before.


Again John 1:15 He that comes after me is preferred before me . For he was before me. Did you see that John the Baptist explained how Jesus existed before John the Baptist. And we know Jesus was born 6 months after John the baptist. Again.John 3:31 He that comes from Heaven is above all. Did you see that John the baptist explains that Jesus came from Heaven.


You have a problem believing that Jesus who is not the Majesty on high Heb 1:3 existed prior to coming to earth as Jesus the only begotten creation of the Majesty on High.

 

[Apologetics]

In 1 Peter 1:19-21 we see that Christ was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world and that God gave Him glory. This is glory Jesus is talking about in John 17:5. Jesus was speaking of His death and the glory He would have because of the resurrection and ascension into heaven.

Your confusing the Mission Jesus was sent on that was predestined . With his pre existence that he had before the world was. John 17:5

No Look at the words Used Glory I Had. Past Tense Not future tense.. Your trying to make the scripture say what you want them to say. Thats adding to the scriptures. Jesus had Glory before the world was. Thats plain.

 

[Apologetics]

1 Peter 1:19-21
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Yes that Glory that was predestined ,was the preeminence Col 1:8 first to raise from the dead never to die again Rom 6:9. No other man has received that Glory. Only Jesus until the first Resurrection Rev 20:5. Jesus has many honors( Glories) Bestowed upon him by the Majesty on High.


Again Your confusing the Mission Jesus was sent on that was predestined . With his pre existence that he had before the world was. John 17:5

 

[Apologetics]

Col 1:15 says He is the "firstborn" of every creature. Adam was the created son of God (Luke 3:38) but only Jesus was born of the Father. (Luke 1:35)

You must remember Jesus is the only begotten. Adam is not the only begotten. The Majesty on High did not directly create Adam. The Majesty on High gave Jesus the authority to create Adam and the worlds.


Yes Rev 3:15 The beginning of the creation of God. ( First Born)The fist creature God created and the last creature God directly created. Then Jesus being in the place of honor created everything else Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Did you see that. How did God create the worlds.??? By Jesus. God Gave Jesus the authority ( Place of Honor) To created all that we See. Angels were never given that Honor only Jesus. You see Col 1:18 Preeminence comes in to play

 

[Apologetics]

Luke 1:35 tells us the reason why Jesus is called the Son of God. It says He will be called the Son of God because He is born of the holy Spirit. We see that the word "therefore" means "for that reason;" So, Jesus is called the Son of God for the reason that He is born of the holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

NO NO NO. John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.


Did you see that. God had an only begotten Son Before there was a world .. And then sent that only begotten Son into the world on the predestined mission as a lamb to take away the sins of the world. Consistent with John 17:15 Before the world was.


Your teaching that Jesus was only a Son of God through the Spirit by birth through a woman. Consistent with oneness teaching.


Your interpreting scripture with the preconceive idea that Jesus and God are the same person. . In spite of the reality that in John 17:5 Jesus Identifies 2 person. One the superior, one the subordinate.

 

[Apologetics]

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Again same as above.

 

[Muffled]

There were some in the early church that believed Jesus might have been what may be called a "super-angel", thus being superior to the other angels, including the archangels, thus only being surpassed by God.

I believe that must have been speculation because there is nothing in the Bible to support that view.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus is the Son of God because He was born of the holy Spirit (Luke 1:35).
And because He is the first who rose again from the dead in a glorified form. (Rev. 1:5)

Jesus is not an angel as Hebrews 1:5-13 shows us.

Hebrews 1:5-13
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Jehovah's witnesses claim there are two gods for the people of God. First there is God the Father and then there is a (lower case) "god" the Word. We see this in their interpretation of John 1:1; where they insist it is speaking of two separate gods rather than one.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

So for the JWs there are two gods in fact and this is condemned by the holy scriptures at least twice:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (1 Cor. 8:6)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

I believe it does say He is the son of God but it doesn't say He was born of the Spirit. Mathew tells us what the Holy Spirit is in relation to Jesus.
Mt 1:20 But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Apologetics]

I believe it does say He is the son of God but it doesn't say He was born of the Spirit. Mathew tells us what the Holy Spirit is in relation to Jesus.
Mt 1:20 But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Aggreed

 

[74x12]

Aggreed

Tell me is it easy for people to see that Jesus is separate from the Father in the scriptures???