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Is Jesus the Son of God or God?

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
If you look at the hebrew in that exodus verse, it refers to having no other ELOHIM before yawahs elohim.

So, in otherwords, jesus is a part of Gods team, so, we good.

Yes, Jesus in his pre-human existence was definitely part of God's team....but to call Jesus "God" (with a capital "G") is where the problem starts.

Yahweh himself called human judges "gods" in the sense that they had his divine authority.
Do you recall in John 10: 31-36, when the Jews were trying to bring an accusation of blasphemy against Jesus?......

"Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. 32 Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” 33 The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— 36 do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?"

Jesus was quoting Psalm 82:1 where God says that he judges in the midst of those appointed men.....calling them "gods" because they were his representatives. Jesus has that title "god" applied to him too (as he said) because he came as God's representative....and yet he simply called himself "God's Son". He had every opportunity to identify himself as the Almighty right then and there, because the Jews were already going to stone him for blasphemy. Yet we have not a single statement from Jesus that even hints that he was God incarnate.

Didnt jesus say to the disciples "you call me lord and rightly so"?

Didnt they bow to him as well and he did not rebuke them?

Yes, Jesus was their "Lord" but not their God. His apostles knew who their God was....
1 Corinthians 8:5-6....
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

Titles in the Bible have different applications. The Jews worshipped "one God...the Father". They did not worship Jesus, but rightly honored him....did obeisance (bowed) to him as God's Son.

Stephen at his death looked up and prayed to Jesus, did he not?

If you read the account, he was given a vision of heaven with Jesus at the right hand of his Father (no holy spirit was seen at his left hand and never has been) so Jesus was his Lord and as he was about to die, he addressed his last words to his familiar friend and teacher, whom he knew had promised to resurrect the dead. He entrusted Jesus with his resurrection to life in heaven as one of his "joint heirs".

I don't believe it was a prayer as such because Jesus said we can only pray to God "through" him, not to pray "to" him.

Oh, no, i dont agree they called that idol yahwah. Yes, they called it gods, but, not yahwah. At that moment they wer knowingly rejecting yahwah.

According to the Tanach the festival was....
לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה ...which means "to Yahweh". So the idol they made was supposed to represent their God.

ʼElo·himʹ is the plural of ʼelohʹah (god). Sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods (Genesis 31:30; 32; Genesis 35:2) but more often it is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.
Elo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. When applying to Yahweh, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.

I think wed literally all parish if God judged us with just strictly his standards with no mercy. We all fall short of the glory of God, yes?

Indeed that's true. But God's mercy has to be merited. If we are doing the wrong thing in defiance of Jesus' teachings (justifying what Jesus condemned) then we will answer for that. Mercy is extended only when repentance is demonstrated. In order to be repentant, we have to know that what we are doing is wrong. The ones claiming Jesus as their "Lord" did not see what they were doing was wrong, but they paid the penalty for not checking that their beliefs and practices were pleasing to God, not just their church.

Do we support a political system that we know is owned and operated by the devil?.....would we stand up and be counted in that world when Jesus told us to be "no part" of it? (1 John 5:19; John 18:36)

The one thing that the devil uses as his most successful recruitment tool is patriotism. People get all fired up with nationalism and it becomes a catalyst for all manner of hate to be fed to the masses, dividing people over politics, religion, race, the right to bear arms....or in any other way to cause disharmony.

When Jesus said to 'love our enemies'...how many of us can actually do that? How many can divorce themselves from nationalistic pride long enough to see the 'enemy' as just another human being....somebody's brother, sister, father, mother, uncle, aunt or cousin? When we dehumanize the enemy, we have more reason to hate someone who is probably just like us.

Religiously motivated hatred is particularly rife in the world at the moment. Terrorism has instilled fear and fearful people are easy to control when you present yourself as their savior. But looking at the world objectively, its hard to tell who the real terrorists are. Most people do not understand that they are victims of propaganda.

Also the worship on an idol bull is hardly a mistake for the maker of the universe.

Not sure what you mean by that, can you explain?


BTW...just asking (not criticizing) sometimes your posts are a bit hard to understand because your spelling is often incorrect. Do you have spellcheck? It might be an advantage to use it, just for clarity. You are obviously a well educated person, but spelling errors can reduce your credibility. Just a suggestion...no offense intended.
 
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Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
I just wanted to share this to see what you guys think..... does this mean anything in reference to what we're talking about?:handpointdown:.....
Isaiah 35
The Glory of Zion
(Matthew 9:32-34; Mark 7:31-37)

1 The wilderness and the land will be glad;
the desert will rejoice and blossom like a rose.
2 It will bloom abundantly
and even rejoice with joy and singing.
The glory of Lebanon will be given it,
the splendor of Carmel and Sharon.
They will see the glory of the LORD,
the splendor of our God.

3 Strengthen the limp hands
and steady the feeble knees!
4 Say to those with anxious hearts:
“Be strong, do not fear!
Behold, your God will come with vengeance.
With divine retribution He will come to save you.”
5 Then the eyes of the blind will be opened
and the ears of the deaf unstopped.
6 Then the lame will leap like a deer
and the mute tongue will shout for joy.
For waters will gush forth in the wilderness,
and streams in the desert.
7 The parched ground will become a pool,
the thirsty land springs of water.
In the haunt where jackals once lay,
there will be grass and reeds and papyrus.
8 And there will be a highway
called the Way of Holiness.
The unclean will not travel it,
only those who walk in that Way—
and fools will not stray onto it.
9 No lion will be there,
and no vicious beast will go up on it.
Such will not be found there,
but the redeemed will walk upon it,
10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
They will enter Zion with singing,
crowned with everlasting joy.
Joy and gladness will overtake them,
and sorrow and sighing will flee.
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
When that endless search for truth allows, pick up Dover book called Greek Orthodox Patrology which details precisely how philosophical ideas provide the ideas in the Trinity. You won't finish the book, but you will get some of your answers.

In fact, Christianity is very pagan like, not very Jewish in character. Judaism looks for answers in the Torah. Christians are supposed to be Ok with using philosophical ideas since God is everywhere and since philosophy is the study of everything including knowledge. Philosophy is also the study of the world, based upon principles in nature not only in Torah. It is reasonable for a Christian to presume you can learn things about God from it, since it is a study of nature.

Keep in mind God is usually explained by what God isn't rather than what God is, because you aren't supposed to define God who is the 'Not god' of all gods. God is the essence of divinity, that which has divinity in common with gods but nothing else. God doesn't have their local nature, their defined status, their aspects. God doesn't spring from chaos or mate with anyone. God is everywhere but that doesn't define God and merely points out that unlike gods, God isn't local or somewhere. God is not defined but is not a god, and we cannot understand God like gods. Unlike gods which manifest in specific conditions, God doesn't. We have to be willing to look everywhere and under all conditions.

The gospel of John does not explain the concept of the Trinity, but it does allude to Greek philosophy directly, using the word 'Logos' in the process. That is a philosophy word and not a Jewish philosophy word at all. Logos is a word from Hellenism and quite pagan in origin, just like most things in Christianity. Its philosophical and so much so that certain Christians don't believe John belongs in the Bible, but it does belong. Christianity is philosophical and attempts to gather all of God's glory from the four corners of the globe from all walks of life including pagan ones.It has pagan holidays such as Halloween, because God is everywhere not just in church. Like Jesus can touch lepers: Christianity can touch things, eat bacon, shellfish etc. Hence it can benefit from the philosophical concept of the Trinity, a Platonian concept. It picks up ideas, because even Plato can have godly thoughts. Christianity is willing to collect those from wherever they may be, including from Plato, from Druids, from Romans and all places and people.
a6df8128f33ddf50228fcf34caad61d7.jpg


... If a good idea appears in a topless bar, Christianity is interested and must go into that bar to get it, because topless bars have God in them. The Trinity is, if you will, that idea which someone went into a topless bar to get; and it is a good thing, too. My point is not that you need to go into a bar but that when you do be prepared for God to meet you, because God is everywhere.
6d50efe5ecdf3201410a7b2b3b5f40.png
 
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Yes, Jesus was their "Lord" but not their God. His apostles knew who their God was....

John 20:28-29

"28“My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

29Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”

Luke 24

"50Then Jesus led them to Bethany, and lifting his hands to heaven, he blessed them. 51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven. 52So they worshiped him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy. 53And they spent all of their time in the Temple, praising God."

If you read the account, he was given a vision of heaven with Jesus at the right hand of his Father (no holy spirit was seen at his left hand and never has been) so Jesus was his Lord and as he was about to die, he addressed his last words to his familiar friend and teacher, whom he knew had promised to resurrect the dead. He entrusted Jesus with his resurrection to life in heaven as one of his "joint heirs".

I don't believe it was a prayer as such because Jesus said we can only pray to God "through" him, not to pray "to" him.

Acts 7

"59As they stoned him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”60He fell to his knees, shouting, “Lord, don’t charge them with this sin!” And with that, he died."

According to the Tanach the festival was....
לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה ...which means "to Yahweh". So the idol they made was supposed to represent their God.

Exodus 32:3 - STR - with Study Resources - with Context - Study Desk

If you click on the link, then click on the words these be thy "gods" that brought you up out of egypt. "Gods" there is elohym. Not yahwah. However, when you press on "Lord" where Aaron says a feast would be done the morrow. Its yahwah there.

So, the people called the calf gods, aaron did not call it gods. And i dont believe aaron was calling it yawhah. Why would yawhah let him live but not the others? Its because aaron was not stupid like they wer.

But, lets go a bit deeper into some reasoning here. Why would they think this golden calf they just made, made them and brought them up out of egypt? They'd have to be wacko to believe it. No, they did not believe that. They believed this calf represented there gods that wer in egypt, like apis, a egyptian god bull from egypt. Isreal knew that was not yahwah because when moses showed up, they asked who his God was. So, they wer rejecting yahwah. In fact, when moses came down the mountain, he says he who is on yawhah side, come. So, they knew the difference.

Indeed that's true. But God's mercy has to be merited. If we are doing the wrong thing in defiance of Jesus' teachings (justifying what Jesus condemned) then we will answer for that. Mercy is extended only when repentance is demonstrated. In order to be repentant, we have to know that what we are doing is wrong. The ones claiming Jesus as their "Lord" did not see what they were doing was wrong, but they paid the penalty for not checking that their beliefs and practices were pleasing to God, not just their church.

Agreed.

Not sure what you mean by that, can you explain?

Yes, worshiping a bull idol is hardly a mistake for the God of the universe. In other words, Isreal was acting like atheists at this time.

BTW...just asking (not criticizing) sometimes your posts are a bit hard to understand because your spelling is often incorrect. Do you have spellcheck? It might be an advantage to use it, just for clarity. You are obviously a well educated person, but spelling errors can reduce your credibility. Just a suggestion...no offense intended.

I do have spell check on this phone. But, its multiple choice. So, sometimes i pick the wrong one.

I dont think it hampers with credibility though.

Ill respond to your other post on the occult in the other thread tomorow because this one took awhile.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
John 20:28-29

"28“My Lord and my God!” Thomas exclaimed.

29Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.”

Luke 24

"50Then Jesus led them to Bethany, and lifting his hands to heaven, he blessed them. 51While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up to heaven. 52So they worshiped him and then returned to Jerusalem filled with great joy. 53And they spent all of their time in the Temple, praising God."

The exclamation of a doubting Thomas is hardly grounds for a doctrine, particularly when there are so many other references that prove the opposite. Please remember that Jesus was rightly called a "god" in their understanding of the word both in Hebrew and Greek.

Acts 7

"59As they stoned him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”60He fell to his knees, shouting, “Lord, don’t charge them with this sin!” And with that, he died."

Accordings to Strongs Concordance....."They went G3036 on stoning G3036 Stephen G4736 as he called G1941 on the Lord and said, G3004 “Lord G2962 Jesus, G2424 receive G1209 my spirit!” G4151"

ESV..."And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

NABRE..."As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

There is no "prayed" in that verse. That is a misleading translation by the looks. (NIV?)

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Clicking on the link to Strongs, you will see how this word is used in other scripture.

If you click on the link, then click on the words these be thy "gods" that brought you up out of egypt. "Gods" there is elohym. Not yahwah. However, when you press on "Lord" where Aaron says a feast would be done the morrow. Its yahwah there.

So, the people called the calf gods, aaron did not call it gods. And i dont believe aaron was calling it yawhah. Why would yawhah let him live but not the others? Its because aaron was not stupid like they wer.

Aaron said that the festival was " לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה "...which means "to Yahweh". So the idol they made was supposed to represent their God. I see no reference in scripture stating that the Israelites had adopted the worship of the false gods of Egypt. They were kept separate from the Egyptians as slaves put to hard labor. God said that he had heard their cries of oppression.

From the 70 who entered Egypt with Jacob and his sons, they multiplied at such an extraordinary rate that it made the Egyptians fearful of their ever increasing numbers. Moses miraculously survived a mandated culling of the Hebrew male infants. He grew up knowing that he was a Hebrew and was used later to free his nation from slavery.

Elo·himʹ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. When applying to Yahweh, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.

But, lets go a bit deeper into some reasoning here. Why would they think this golden calf they just made, made them and brought them up out of egypt? They'd have to be wacko to believe it. No, they did not believe that. They believed this calf represented there gods that wer in egypt, like apis, a egyptian god bull from egypt. Isreal knew that was not yahwah because when moses showed up, they asked who his God was. So, they wer rejecting yahwah. In fact, when moses came down the mountain, he says he who is on yawhah side, come. So, they knew the difference.

Perhaps we just read it differently. The golden calf was the reason why Israel was not allowed to organize their own festivals from that time onward. Calling it a festival of Yahweh didn't make it one. I see a similarity with Christmas.....calling it Christian doesn't take away its pagan roots.

Yes, worshiping a bull idol is hardly a mistake for the God of the universe. In other words, Isreal was acting like atheists at this time.

Still not clear.....are you saying that they couldn't mistake an idol for the true God? Being surrounded by false worship for so long in Egypt, perhaps they had come to view Yahweh differently? They knew the God of their forefathers...but as yet had no laws.

I do have spell check on this phone. But, its multiple choice. So, sometimes i pick the wrong one.

I dont think it hampers with credibility though.
I must admit that I am a stickler for correct spelling.....its just a thing with me. If I don't know how to spell something, I will look it up before I post. Some people are just not good at spelling but misspelling is a distraction to me.

Ill respond to your other post on the occult in the other thread tomorow because this one took awhile.

When you're ready...no hurry.
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
Just curious....what were they to "believe", do you think?
Well in context it seems as though the resurrected Jesus is referring to those who have not seen him (or can't see him) yet still believe he is the messiah who died and resurrected on the third day because Thomas, one of the 12 disciples wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus appeared to them the first time around after Jesus died and even though Thomas was with Jesus all that time before Jesus died, he still didn't believe Jesus resurrected and said he would only believe Jesus resurrected if he could feel the nail holes in the hands of Jesus. In other words he would have to see it (and touch it) to believe it.:expressionless:
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Well in context it seems as though the resurrected Jesus is referring to those who have not seen him (or can't see him) yet still believe he is the messiah who died and resurrected on the third day because Thomas, one of the 12 disciples wasn't with the other disciples when Jesus appeared to them the first time around after Jesus died and even though Thomas was with Jesus all that time before Jesus died, he still didn't believe Jesus resurrected and said he would only believe Jesus resurrected if he could feel the nail holes in the hands of Jesus. In other words he would have to see it (and touch it) to believe it.:expressionless:
Yes, exactly! They needed to believe that he was resurrected, not that he was God. Some don’t seem to understand that.
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
Yes, exactly! They needed to believe that he was resurrected, not that he was God. Some don’t seem to understand that.
Yeah.... believing in the resurrection of Jesus is important but believing he's the messiah is just as important.;) believing Jesus is the messiah and believing all that he taught and prophesied (and what was prophesied about him before his arrival) including his resurrection, go hand in hand. I can only imagine how disappointed Jesus was that one of his own disciples, someone who spent so much time with him and was close to him, could have even the slightest doubt....
Which leads me to another intriguing question that I will now post as a new thread....
 
The exclamation of a doubting Thomas is hardly grounds for a doctrine, particularly when there are so many other references that prove the opposite. Please remember that Jesus was rightly called a "god" in their understanding of the word both in Hebrew and Greek.

What about Colosions 2:9?

"For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body."

Accordings to Strongs Concordance....."They went G3036 on stoning G3036 Stephen G4736 as he called G1941 on the Lord and said, G3004 “Lord G2962 Jesus, G2424 receive G1209 my spirit!” G4151"

ESV..."And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

NABRE..."As they were stoning Stephen, he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”

There is no "prayed" in that verse. That is a misleading translation by the looks. (NIV?)

I was actually quoting from the new living translation. But, yes, NIV also uses prayed.

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Clicking on the link to Strongs, you will see how this word is used in other scripture.

So, calling upon, that isnt praying? If you pray, doesent that mean to call on God?

Aaron said that the festival was " לַֽיהֹוָ֖ה "...which means "to Yahweh". So the idol they made was supposed to represent their God. I see no reference in scripture stating that the Israelites had adopted the worship of the false gods of Egypt. They were kept separate from the Egyptians as slaves put to hard labor. God said that he had heard their cries of oppression.

Few questions for ya.

1, why would the Israelites call a golden bull they just made the God of the universe?

2, why would Aaron do this and not be destroyed by God along with those that worshiped it?

3, how do you know Aaron was calling the calf yahwah? Yes, Aaron mentioned yahwah, but how do you know he was refering to the calf?

Also, archaeology shows that the egyptians DID have a bull god named apis and hathor. Apis

Theres also depictions of this bull at the mountain called jubal al luz, i think the best candidate for the real mount sinai.

So, the isrealites did not make this bull out of a vacume. They got the idea from egypt, where they wer living for about 4 generations.

But, there is stark scriptural evidence that yahwah was NOT refered to as that bull, per my questions above.

Elo·himʹ
is used in the Scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men. When applying to Yahweh, ʼElo·himʹ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence.

Agreed.

Perhaps we just read it differently. The golden calf was the reason why Israel was not allowed to organize their own festivals from that time onward. Calling it a festival of Yahweh didn't make it one. I see a similarity with Christmas.....calling it Christian doesn't take away its pagan roots.

Interesting take, i dont have a problem with that. However, i think Aaron knew the difference between yahwah and the apis bull.

Still not clear.....are you saying that they couldn't mistake an idol for the true God? Being surrounded by false worship for so long in Egypt, perhaps they had come to view Yahweh differently? They knew the God of their forefathers...but as yet had no laws.

All idols or graven images are representations of the peoples gods. There not the gods themselves.

That said, the apis god and yahwah wer not the same God. Moses told them who yahwah was. They knew the difference.

Remember at the bush, Moses asked God, what should i tell your people when they ask your name? God said "tell them i am that i am has sent you"

Asking the name was not like how people today ask a name. Back then asking the name was the same as asking what is this God like? Who is he, what is he? That kinda thing. So, they knew the difference.

I must admit that I am a stickler for correct spelling.....its just a thing with me. If I don't know how to spell something, I will look it up before I post. Some people are just not good at spelling but misspelling is a distraction to me.

Ok, ill try to spell better. How did i do in this post?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
There is so much more to this than you seem to realize. One of satan's trade marks is to get God' servants to disobey their God. e.g. When the Israelites were on the brink of entering the promised land, the devil pulled one last maneuver......he let loose the beautiful Moabite women to tempt the men of Israel. It worked, and many of them fell to immorality and idolatry. None of those men made it into the promised land. God's laws were broken and the guilty ones paid for their sin. The devil won but he didn't force them to do anything against their will.

How is the trinity a temptation of the devil? It obscures the true identity of the Living God. It actually puts the son in place of the Father for many who only see Jesus, but never the Father because they believe that they are one and the same being.

God's first Commandment to his people was not to have any other gods in his place. (Exodus 20:3)
The devil wins by again making people break God's law. The son never put himself in God's place.

When Jesus comes on judgment day, he rejects those who claim him as their Lord because he says that they are "workers of lawlessness"....how could that be when they regard themselves as Christians in good standing? They were breaking God's laws. (Matthew 7:21-23) The trinity is only one of them. They said that they had done many things, even powerful works in Jesus' name, but his rejection of them is not negotiable.



Apart from the fact that there is no such thing as "damnation to hell", Jesus showed us the correct way to worship the Father.....not himself. (Luke 4:5-8)

He said "No one comes to the Father except through me".....if he was God why did people need to come to the Father? Why not just come to Jesus?

If Jesus is the mediator (go-between) for humans and his Father; and all of our prayers are to be said in Jesus' name, so as to be conveyed to God in the right way, why do we not need a mediator between us and Jesus? Never once are we instructed to pray TO Jesus....but THROUGH him.



Let me give you another example......when Israel had been liberated from Egyptian slavery and Moses ascended the mountain to gain some further instruction from God, they thought he was taking too long, so they asked Aaron to make a god for them (obviously like the ones they had seen in Egypt) so they collected all their gold and it was fashioned into a golden calf. Now, the thing is, they called this idol "Yahweh" and had a festival dedicated to him with lots of singing and dancing. But God brought their activities to Moses' attention and told him to go down and put a stop to it. Not until Moses actually saw what they were doing did he lose his temper and throw down the stone tablets on which God had written the Ten Commandments.

Now did Israel think that a festival to the God who had just liberated them was wrong? They were used to seeing idols worshipped in Egypt, and they called the representation of their God by his name.....and yet none of them made it into the promised land except Aaron. Moses gave them an ultimatum.....all who were on God's side were to come to him. Those who did not think they did anything wrong, perished.

What is the lesson?



I believe judgment day will be based on what God has asked of his human children since day one...."obedience". Strict obedience to his laws and how promptly we followed them out of love for him and respect for his sovereign right to hold us to account if we break his laws.

I believe that we can be fooled by the devil into thinking close enough is good enough.....I don't believe it is. :(
Good point Deeje.
@Jollybear I think 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 directly makes clear that we must know God.  
2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 American Standard Version (ASV)
6 if so be that it is a righteous thing with God to recompense affliction to them that afflict you, 7 and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
Also John 17:3 says we will only get everlasting life, if we know God.

That is why Jesus said of the Pharisees that their father was the Devil, because rather than stick to his word - (John 8:31, 32) 31If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.- they believed the liar.
John 8:44, 45
44 You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. 45Because I, on the other hand, tell you the truth, you do not believe me.

There was a reason Jesus expended himself to teach the truth, and there was a reason he chose men to teach and make disciples, and he said this would continue to the end of the world. Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20
It can't be a wasted effort that means nothing.
Why go through all that trouble to teach the truth, if at the end of the day, it means nothing to our salvation?

That would make no sense, would it?
To the contrary, the scriptures consistently mentions the need to have accurate knowledge of truth, which is God's word. That's why we have it, isn't that so? To know the truth, which is what God wills.
1 Timothy 2:3, 4
3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

Some evidently are sincere, but there was a problem with being sincerely wrong.
Romans 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge.
(Ephesians 4:13; Colossians 1:9, 10)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But notice Jesus response was not a correction to thomas calling him God?
Yes, there was is nothing wrong with recognizing Jesus as God - not almighty God - the only true God - the one alone requiring exclusive devotion, who Jesus himself said should be worshiped - the one alone to be served.
Aaron would have known that he should worship Jehovah alone, even though Moses was appointed God, and Aaron was to be his messenger.
The Jews likewise knew that the judges were gods, in relation to their authority by God.
However, the fact that the title God, which basically identifies one as mighty, was bestowed on others, does not support the Trinity, in any way.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Tysm everyone for your input...I really appreciate all these perspectives.
For those who don't believe Jesus is God, then what is he? Because his mother Mary was made pregnant by the holy spirit (God) not by man. Also, Jesus was (and will be;)) able to do things no body else could do.
And once again, in the bible John 1, "The Word (of God) became flesh"..... the word was with God but was God tooo_O
I think this is either really simple or so complicated our limited human brains will never be able to fully conceive it.
Maybe if I thought about it like this......
My words are my own but if I took my words and created something with my words like a book or a song (which are very simplified examples btw) and sent it off into the world, it would still be mine but in a sense, separated from me and put into a vessel or made into a different form so that my words can reach others.....idk if this makes sense:confused::(
Just something I thought of.
Sometimes when we are taught one thing, and we believe, or accept it, and later something else, and we find we are confused, it might help to wipe the slate clean, and start fresh.
Granted, this would not be easy, since memory is not easy to wipe out, but it's possible if we try hard enough, I believe, to let go of what could be interfering with sorting out what may not be as puzzling as it seems.
Remember that, we believed, and accepted.
Try unlearning how to ride a bicycle, and see what I mean. :)
Studying the Bible fresh, and on a clean slate will help. Trust me. ;)
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
But notice Jesus response was not a correction to thomas calling him God?
Did he?
The evidences indicate otherwise:

The language Thomas used was not an address to Jesus but it was an exclamation to the Father. Why? Because John, the Apostle who wrote this, does not describe Thomas using the Greek case for direct address, which is the "vocative case.” In English, this case is implied in the context of a sentence, but in Greek, you have to identify it through spelling. This case is what makes simply mentioning a name like “Tom" different from addressing (or speaking to) that person, like yelling "Hey, Tom!”

If John wanted us to think that Thomas made a direct address to Jesus, he would have used the "vocative case". But since John reported Thomas using the more standard "nominative case" he was just acknowledging the Father, Yahweh, and praising Him for Jesus' resurrection. Thomas was not addressing Jesus with the titles "Lord" and "God."

Jesus understood this.

When a scribe approached Jesus and called him "good teacher", Thomas was there when he heard Jesus rebuff that scribe.... Jesus responded, "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except One, God." (Mark 10:18)


(It's best if one tries to learn grammatical phrases in the original language a book was written in....otherwise, there will be misinterpretations, and context may disagree and not make sense.)

Also there's this evidence....

Some "suppose that since Thomas said these words TO Jesus, then he must have taken this opportunity to declare that Jesus is his God ("my God"). However, as the following passage demonstrates, this assumption is highly flawed.

From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you." But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God but upon the things of men."
Matthew 16:21-23
If we interpreted the above passage in the very same manner as Trinitarians interpret John 20:28, we would then be required to conclude Peter is Satan himself. But this is obviously incorrect. Even though Jesus said these words directly TO Peter, we know it does not mean Peter is Satan himself. Hence, we must inquire whether a similar situation may be taking place at John 20:28."

Source: John 20:28
 
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Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
Did he?
The evidence indicates otherwise:

The language Thomas used was not an address to Jesus but it was an exclamation to the Father. Why? Because John, the Apostle who wrote this, does not describe Thomas using the Greek case for direct address, which is the "vocative case.” In English, this case is implied in the context of a sentence, but in Greek, you have to identify it through spelling. This case is what makes simply mentioning a name like “Tom" different from addressing (or speaking to) that person, like yelling "Hey, Tom!”

If John wanted us to think that Thomas made a direct address to Jesus, he would have used the "vocative case". But since John reported Thomas using the more standard "nominative case" he was just acknowledging the Father, Yahweh, and praising Him for Jesus' resurrection. Thomas was not addressing Jesus with the titles "Lord" and "God."
In all honesty, I know nothing about "vocative case" or "nominative case":(
When a scribe approached Jesus and called him "good teacher", Thomas was there when he heard Jesus rebuff that scribe.... Jesus responded, "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except One, God." (Mark 10:18)
But wasn't Jesus Good? Without sin? And to my understanding, reading the verse in context, Jesus knew the heart of the rich man and new that he was selfish and wasn't actually interested in being "good" but interested in living forever with his riches to which Jesus told him....
19 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.....

Then the rich man said....

20 “Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

Then.......

21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.Then come, follow me.
22 At this, the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

So from reading this, I don't interpret Jesus saying "only God is good" As Jesus admitting he's not God or good enough but that the rich man wasn't good enough to follow the only "ONE" who is (was) good...
:handpointright:Jesus
It's best if one tries to learn grammatical phrases in the original language a book was written in....otherwise, there will be misinterpretations, and context may disagree and not make sense.
I agree and disagree. The "original language" may not be the original language because the scriptures of the bible have been destroyed, "copied", and "translated" so much that nobody really knows if the translations we have today are grammatically correct..... that's why we have so many different versions, translations and "interpretations" of the bible....Also, how do we know we can trust someone who says "well there's an exclamation mark next to that word so he's not calling Jesus my Lord my God, he's saying Jesus OMG!":fearscream:
Idk.....Js:infodeskperson:
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@Tranquil_Servant ,
Actually, I admit that I'm not that versed in Greek, or it's sentence structure; and regarding the vocative and nominative usages, they don't really consistently provide conclusive proofs, by themselves. However, according to John, Thomas said, "the lord of me and the god of me".

(All punctuation and capitalization have to be added. So, word structure is paramount to understanding the text.)

By writing it this way -- using two definite articles (the) before each of the two nouns (lord, & god) -- all is important to understand.....

Professor C. F. D. Moule....(C. F. D. Moule - Wikipedia)
....wrote, "In John 20:28 Ho kýrios mou kai ho theós mou [that is, My Lord and my God], it is to be noted that a substantive [like God] in the Nominative case used in a vocative sense [in address to Jesus] and followed by a possessive [of me] could not be anarthrous [that is, without the definite article the] . . . ; the article [the] before theós may, therefore, not be significant. . . . the use of the article [the] with a virtual Vocative (compare John 20:28 referred to above, and 1 Peter 2:18, Colossians 3:18ff.) may also be due to Semitic idiom.”—Pages 116, 117, of An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Professor of Divinity in the University of Cambridge, 1953 edition, England. (Bold type mine)

IOW, this does not support that Thomas had a "Jesus-is-God" view.

Consider the context....

Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3, AV) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.” (John 20:17- 18, AV) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.

How, then, could Thomas in an ecstasy of joy at seeing the resurrected Jesus for the first time burst out with an exclamation and speak to Jesus himself as being the one and only living, true God, the God whose name is Jehovah? How could Thomas, by what he spoke, mean that Jesus was himself “the only true God” or that Jesus was God in the Second Person of a Trinity? In view of what Thomas had heard from Jesus and had been told by Jesus, how can we read such a meaning into Thomas’ words: “My Lord and my God”?

Source of His Life — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
Did he?
The evidences indicate otherwise:

The language Thomas used was not an address to Jesus but it was an exclamation to the Father. Why? Because John, the Apostle who wrote this, does not describe Thomas using the Greek case for direct address, which is the "vocative case.” In English, this case is implied in the context of a sentence, but in Greek, you have to identify it through spelling. This case is what makes simply mentioning a name like “Tom" different from addressing (or speaking to) that person, like yelling "Hey, Tom!”

If John wanted us to think that Thomas made a direct address to Jesus, he would have used the "vocative case". But since John reported Thomas using the more standard "nominative case" he was just acknowledging the Father, Yahweh, and praising Him for Jesus' resurrection. Thomas was not addressing Jesus with the titles "Lord" and "God."

Jesus understood this.

When a scribe approached Jesus and called him "good teacher", Thomas was there when he heard Jesus rebuff that scribe.... Jesus responded, "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except One, God." (Mark 10:18)


(It's best if one tries to learn grammatical phrases in the original language a book was written in....otherwise, there will be misinterpretations, and context may disagree and not make sense.)

Also there's this evidence....

Some "suppose that since Thomas said these words TO Jesus, then he must have taken this opportunity to declare that Jesus is his God ("my God"). However, as the following passage demonstrates, this assumption is highly flawed.

From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to you." But Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God but upon the things of men."
Matthew 16:21-23
If we interpreted the above passage in the very same manner as Trinitarians interpret John 20:28, we would then be required to conclude Peter is Satan himself. But this is obviously incorrect. Even though Jesus said these words directly TO Peter, we know it does not mean Peter is Satan himself. Hence, we must inquire whether a similar situation may be taking place at John 20:28."

Source: John 20:28
Hey!:grinning: so I was compelled to look for some answers after reading the quoted post above and I found some interesting stuff....
First, this article....
Part 2 Thomas called Jesus Lord and God – John 20:28
And just so you don't have to read the whole thing:rolleyes:....I found this
...."Fourth, the Greek text actually says, “The Lord of me and the God of me[1].” In calling Jesus God, Thomas used the Greek words
“ho theos”= the God......Therefore, Jesus cannot be a god, a mighty god, or a lesser god but is in fact almighty God. Utilizing “ho theos” John is emphatically saying Jesus is “the God.”"

So then I found this:frowning:....
John 20:28 Greek Text Analysis

OMG! See what I mean about translations!:confused:
 

Tranquil Servant

Was M.I.A for a while
@Tranquil_Servant ,
Actually, I admit that I'm not that versed in Greek, or it's sentence structure; and regarding the vocative and nominative usages, they don't really consistently provide conclusive proofs, by themselves. However, according to John, Thomas said, "the lord of me and the god of me".

(All punctuation and capitalization have to be added. So, word structure is paramount to understanding the text.)

By writing it this way -- using two definite articles (the) before each of the two nouns (lord, & god) -- all is important to understand.....

Professor C. F. D. Moule....(C. F. D. Moule - Wikipedia)
....wrote, "In John 20:28 Ho kýrios mou kai ho theós mou [that is, My Lord and my God], it is to be noted that a substantive [like God] in the Nominative case used in a vocative sense [in address to Jesus] and followed by a possessive [of me] could not be anarthrous [that is, without the definite article the] . . . ; the article [the] before theós may, therefore, not be significant. . . . the use of the article [the] with a virtual Vocative (compare John 20:28 referred to above, and 1 Peter 2:18, Colossians 3:18ff.) may also be due to Semitic idiom.”—Pages 116, 117, of An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Professor of Divinity in the University of Cambridge, 1953 edition, England. (Bold type mine)

IOW, this does not support that Thomas had a "Jesus-is-God" view.

Consider the context....

Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3, AV) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.” (John 20:17- 18, AV) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.

How, then, could Thomas in an ecstasy of joy at seeing the resurrected Jesus for the first time burst out with an exclamation and speak to Jesus himself as being the one and only living, true God, the God whose name is Jehovah? How could Thomas, by what he spoke, mean that Jesus was himself “the only true God” or that Jesus was God in the Second Person of a Trinity? In view of what Thomas had heard from Jesus and had been told by Jesus, how can we read such a meaning into Thomas’ words: “My Lord and my God”?

Source of His Life — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Lol!:laughing: I read this after I already posted my last post!:p
 
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