Is Karma a force of nature or...

[Raithie]

How does the process of carrying over from one lifetime to the next imply a "higher justice"? You lost me on that one.........

It assumes there is an afterlife and a supernatural being who maintains justice throughout this life and the afterlife.

If you believe karma to be true, how do you explain it without a "higher being" implementing justice?

 

[Engyo]

It assumes there is an afterlife and a supernatural being who maintains justice throughout this life and the afterlife.

If you believe karma to be true, how do you explain it without a "higher being" implementing justice?

No higher being is required. Where did you find that implication? Justice doesn't play a part either; that is just humans placing value judgements on things they observe.

Karma is a description of observed processes at work in the realm of life and its interactions, similar to a scientific theorem formulated to described natural processes observed in the physical realm. It doesn't require the intervention of any sort of intelligence to work, no more than gravity or pressure or chemical reactions do.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Refer to my signature

 

[Raithie]

No higher being is required. Where did you find that implication? Justice doesn't play a part either; that is just humans placing value judgements on things they observe.

Okay, so you're talking about an afterlife without a divine being? How? (In reference to: "How does the process of carrying over from one lifetime to the next imply a "higher justice"')

Karma is a description of observed processes at work in the realm of life and its interactions, similar to a scientific theorem formulated to described natural processes observed in the physical realm. It doesn't require the intervention of any sort of intelligence to work, no more than gravity or pressure or chemical reactions do.

But it doesn't necessarily have to work. Life is chaotic and coincidental. There's no specific order in the 'justice'.

 

[Engyo]

Okay, so you're talking about an afterlife without a divine being? How? (In reference to: "How does the process of carrying over from one lifetime to the next imply a "higher justice"')

Try this without any preconception of what "afterlife" means according to the Abrahamic faiths. Drop that concept completely. Rebirth is just another lifetime like this one; it's part of the natural order of things, and requires no divine beings or supernatural powers to operate, it's just how things are.

But it doesn't necessarily have to work. Life is chaotic and coincidental. There's no specific order in the 'justice'.

Why should there be? There is cause and effect, just like the chemical reaction we call "fire" occurs when fuel, heat and oxygen are all simultaneously present. If the fire doesn't occur, then one of the requirements is missing; either there wasn't enough oxygen, or the temperature was too low, or the fuel wasn't really fuel. If the "justice" doesn't seem to occur, then it is because the situation wasn't quite what we thought it was; something else was involved that we were not aware of at the time.

 

[Raithie]

Try this without any preconception of what "afterlife" means according to the Abrahamic faiths. Drop that concept completely. Rebirth is just another lifetime like this one; it's part of the natural order of things, and requires no divine beings or supernatural powers to operate, it's just how things are.

Apologies, I'm used to debating with Christians. However, your belief is also a preconception and assumption. There is no reason to suggest that reincarnation occurs. Objectively, everything that is "you" is in your brain, and once that shuts off, you go along with it.
Even if there was reincarnation, there is no reason why everything would balance out by means of karma. Yes, it probably would end up 50-50, however there is no guarantee, and certainly not in the sense of karma.

Also, when you told me to drop the concept of an afterlife according to the Abrahamic faiths, you immediately continued to tell me to adopt yours - rebirth. There's no evidence or reason for either.

Why should there be? There is cause and effect, just like the chemical reaction we call "fire" occurs when fuel, heat and oxygen are all simultaneously present. If the fire doesn't occur, then one of the requirements is missing; either there wasn't enough oxygen, or the temperature was too low, or the fuel wasn't really fuel. If the "justice" doesn't seem to occur, then it is because the situation wasn't quite what we thought it was; something else was involved that we were not aware of at the time.

Your entire argument is an assumption that karma exists, and that if that justice doesn't happen it's simply because "something else was involved" or that "karma will happen in another life". That gets you nowhere.

There is no valid reason for the existence of karma.

 

[Engyo]

Apologies, I'm used to debating with Christians. However, your belief is also a preconception and assumption. There is no reason to suggest that reincarnation occurs. Objectively, everything that is "you" is in your brain, and once that shuts off, you go along with it.

No argument here. I am speaking about rebirth, not reincarnation. They are different concepts that share a few minor similarities.

Also, when you told me to drop the concept of an afterlife according to the Abrahamic faiths, you immediately continued to tell me to adopt yours - rebirth. There's no evidence or reason for either.

Your entire argument is an assumption that karma exists, and that if that justice doesn't happen it's simply because "something else was involved" or that "karma will happen in another life". That gets you nowhere.

There is no valid reason for the existence of karma.

I am not asking you to accept my viewpoint whatsoever. I am simply explaining it. You are free to ignore it or try to understand it as you like. I long ago gave up worrying about whether or not anyone else believes the same way I do.

You are responsible for your life and your choices, you see. I'm responsible for mine.

 

[Raithie]

No argument here. I am speaking about rebirth, not reincarnation. They are different concepts that share a few minor similarities.

Sorry, I'm not that familar with buddhist concepts, I admit. I'll rephrase:
"However, your belief is also a preconception and assumption. There is no reason to suggest that rebirth occurs. Objectively, everything that is "you" is in your brain, and once that shuts off, you go along with it."

I am not asking you to accept my viewpoint whatsoever. I am simply explaining it. You are free to ignore it or try to understand it as you like. I long ago gave up worrying about whether or not anyone else believes the same way I do.

You are responsible for your life and your choices, you see. I'm responsible for mine.

I realise you're not trying to impose your viewpoints. We're trying to have a discussion. You stated: "Drop that concept completely. Rebirth is just another lifetime like this one; it's part of the natural order of things".

You told me to drop Abrahamic beliefs in order to accept yours (for the sake of discussion), I was pointing that out. Anyway, there is no reason as to why it's the "natural order of things". Only your faith. If we're going to have a productive discussion about karma, we can only analyse things objectively and not rely on unfounded faith or personal feelings.

If you can prove to me that karma is existent without resorting to your particular faith based belief system, I will happily accept it. Otherwise, I see no reason to believe in it.

 

[Engyo]

You told me to drop Abrahamic beliefs in order to accept yours (for the sake of discussion), I was pointing that out.

I did that because you kept injecting the concept of a supernatural being to the discussion, when I never mentioned one; as if it were inconceivable to talk about such things without a supernatural being involved. It was a (probably clumsy) attempt on my part to illustrate that point.

If you can prove to me that karma is existent without resorting to your particular faith based belief system, I will happily accept it. Otherwise, I see no reason to believe in it.

I guess I wasn't clear before. I don't want you to accept it. I'm not trying to get you to believe in it. I was simply explaining my personal understanding. You are free to do with the information what you will.

 

[Raithie]

I did that because you kept injecting the concept of a supernatural being to the discussion, when I never mentioned one; as if it were inconceivable to talk about such things without a supernatural being involved. It was a (probably clumsy) attempt on my part to illustrate that point.

I wrongly assumed that your idea of an afterlife was not rebirth, as I personally wouldn't consider it as an afterlife. It's just a continuum of life. Apologies for the misunderstanding.
However, I still don't see how karma works throughout rebirth. Could you explain?

I guess I wasn't clear before. I don't want you to accept it. I'm not trying to get you to believe in it. I was simply explaining my personal understanding. You are free to do with the information what you will.

I was trying to get a discussion going as opposed to a listing of your beliefs, I was also trying to understand why you believe the way you do.

Could you answer this in terms of what you believe? Because surely a "personal understanding" would have reasons to cite, even if subjective? I'm interested. I know very little about Buddhism in general. "There is no reason to suggest that rebirth occurs. Objectively, everything that is "you" is in your brain, and once that shuts off, you go along with it."

 

[Riverwolf]

Question, Engyo.

What is the difference between reincarnation and rebirth?

 

[Valjean]

Trying to understand Karma from an Abrahamic standpoint is like trying to understand photosynthesis from the perspective of automotive engineering, Raithie.
Karma's a Sanskrit term for an Eastern concept.

As Engyo pointed out, karma's a purely mechanical process, like gravity or a chemical reaction. It's not a punishment or reward. There is no judge or judgement involved. And remember we're talking advanced physics here, so concepts like afterlife make no sense.

 

[Engyo]

However, I still don't see how karma works throughout rebirth. Could you explain?

I am explaining all of this as personal understandings because I have no proof to offer. Some of it is what makes sense to me today, based on my experiences to date with my life and my Buddhist practice. Some of it is me accepting parts of Buddhist teachings I haven't directly experienced because I have found that the parts I have experienced to date do accord with the teachings.

In my understanding, karma is simply a name for the way cause and effect functions with regard to living things. The theory goes that once a cause has been made, simultaneously the effect is generated. The effect may not manifest immediately; it may show up right away, but it may not manifest for a while, or even at all during the course of this lifetime. This is one of the parts I am accepting without evidence; but the theory goes that the part of conciousness which is transferred from existence through non-existence to existence again is a repository or storehouse of all the effects which are yet to manifest. These remain dormant during the phase of non-existence, and are brought back into play when next that conciousness re-emerges into existence again.

This Wiki article goes deeper into it; this stuff is something I used to not really accept, but seems to make more and more sense to me as I practice more and grow in understanding. That is another reason I express them as personal understandings.......I'm not sure that any sort of explanation can convey why I understand them; I believe these understandings are really a result of practicing and are very hard to verbalize (or type).

I was trying to get a discussion going as opposed to a listing of your beliefs, I was also trying to understand why you believe the way you do.

Could you answer this in terms of what you believe? Because surely a "personal understanding" would have reasons to cite, even if subjective? I'm interested. I know very little about Buddhism in general. "There is no reason to suggest that rebirth occurs. Objectively, everything that is "you" is in your brain, and once that shuts off, you go along with it."

I won't argue about the fact that "I' cease to exist at this particular body's death; that is what I believe occurs. Identity/ego does not carry over from one lifetime to the next as I grasp it. I don't necessarily believe that any given individual will "get what's coming to them" per se, at least not in a way that would be satisfying to someone who feels wronged by that individual; I don't really believe that is the point of the way the universe operates. I also don't believe that any human being understands it completely. It is possible that the Buddha understood it; the sutras say he claimed to, that the understanding was a consequence of his attainment of enlightenment, but I have no way of knowing that objectively.

I know this probably didn't really clarify things a great deal, unfortunately. Mayeb one day I will be able to explain these things more clearly.

 

[Engyo]

Question, Engyo.

What is the difference between reincarnation and rebirth?

Please see post #4.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/dharmic-religions-dir/99645-buddhism-science.html#post2055934

 

[no-body]

Ah yes, that brilliant principle that there is no wheel and that the hampster runs in vain because it is not a hampster.

It's always precious when drivel is promoted into the ranks of genius.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this statement. Do you mean Buddhist doctrine is sound except when it comes to karma/reincarnation?

I guess I could see Buddhism as a good psychological/philosophical way of life with all the supernatural elements removed.

But living in the here/now at least is testable unlike the doctrines of heaven/hell even if it doesn't exist meditation has proven benefits which you can see for yourself. Really it's the entire reason I prefer the eastern religions it's not entirely based on "just take our word for it"

 

[Just_me_Mike]

But living in the here/now at least is testable unlike the doctrines of heaven/hell even if it doesn't exist meditation has proven benefits which you can see for yourself. Really it's the entire reason I prefer the eastern religions it's not entirely based on "just take our word for it"

If the bible is true that heaven is and can be within us, it is possible to test this.
If we define heaven as a state where there is no good or bad, only God, we are speaking of some inner peace, that alludes many. When this state is achieved, we might be able to testify to such a place existing within.

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this statement. Do you mean Buddhist doctrine is sound except when it comes to karma/reincarnation?

I guess I could see Buddhism as a good psychological/philosophical way of life with all the supernatural elements removed.

I don't know if Ymir would agree with me, but I believe that it is the supernatural interpretation of Karma / rebirth (NOT reincarnation, please ) that is quite unsound.

 

[YmirGF]

I don't know if Ymir would agree with me, but I believe that it is the supernatural interpretation of Karma / rebirth (NOT reincarnation, please ) that is quite unsound.

You have my agreement. What amuses me is the idea that if we strip away all the mumbo jumbo that we are left with something sound. That just strike my funny bone. No, really. :biglaugh:

 

[YmirGF]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this statement. Do you mean Buddhist doctrine is sound except when it comes to karma/reincarnation?

Then treat it as a koan.

I guess I could see Buddhism as a good psychological/philosophical way of life with all the supernatural elements removed.

One could say the same thing about any belief system. They are all great if one removes their unsavory aspects. It's one of those, "Um, Duh!" type of things.

But living in the here/now at least is testable unlike the doctrines of heaven/hell

I can only assume you are not very far along in meditation.

even if it doesn't exist meditation has proven benefits which you can see for yourself.

Well, I have only meditated now for (Stops to think) ... for 36+ years so... it's all pretty new to me still. I know nothing, though, it is true, I do know nothing rather well.

Really it's the entire reason I prefer the eastern religions it's not entirely based on "just take our word for it"

Well, as they say, "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" - so chow down!