Is Karma a force of nature or...

[no-body]

No offense to those who look for Karma to ultimately even things up . . . I personally prefer to see justice meted out swiftly.

I don't think karma is supposed to be about cosmic justice from what i've read, it's just a principle. But that is the wrong image that many in the west have of karma that it is some kind of "what goes around comes around" system or as I like to call it "my name is earl karma" or "white-trash karma"

 

[Engyo]

Or does Karma not recognize moral offenses? Is it more like cause and effect with man applying his own concept of morality to it?

In other words, if you take something that doesn't belong to you, there will be an applicable and appropriate effect for that particular action/cause. Karma doesn't see this as necessarily good or bad, but just natural. While we humans fit our own man-made concepts of morality and perhaps "justice" to this natural process?

This is pretty close to my current understanding..................You might say morality is an attempt to create a behavioral code that conforms to the principle of karma.

 

[Riverwolf]

I don't think karma is supposed to be about cosmic justice from what i've read, it's just a principle. But that is the wrong image that many in the west have of karma that it is some kind of "what goes around comes around" system or as I like to call it "my name is earl karma" or "white-trash karma"

Yeah, it doesn't help when the concept you disagree with isn't even really widely believed.

 

[Eliot Wild]

This is pretty close to my current understanding..................You might say morality is an attempt to create a behavioral code that conforms to the principle of karma.

Got it. Actually, that sounds much more plausible, at least to my way of thinking.

 

[Alien]

Plenty of karma. The actual word means "action."

Now, isn't there an old saying that oppression breeds freedom fighters? I'd imagine that those empires weren't very well-off.

Only if you misunderstand the concept.

When you do something bad, if you have a good conscious, you will feel shame, and probably have a bad rest of the day. If others find out, they won't like it.

You write about misunderstanding a concept then take my words so literal; A characteristic of some people that subscribe to beliefs such as karma. I reason that people who follow religion and superstitious beliefs do so because they need some sort of reason for their existence. Why not just exist?
To elaborate, by empires I also mean heads of major corporations who gained their wealth in unjust ways. Is Madoff a result of Karma? Or is he just stupid for getting caught? I go for the latter.

 

[Raithie]

Karma? Meh. Life is purely coincidental. **** happens. And sometimes it doesn't happen. There's no "higher justice" involved.

 

[Engyo]

Karma? Meh. Life is purely coincidental. **** happens. And sometimes it doesn't happen. There's no "higher justice" involved.

Who said karma has anything to do with higher justice? Two totally different concepts.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

This is the misconception of karma in the west. That karma is merely cause and effect, or some kind of justice. Here is saying I just came up with in my head thinking about karma, and maybe it's accurate: "Karma is not cause and effect, it is both the cause and the effect.

 

[Eliot Wild]

. . . does Karma not recognize moral offenses? Is it more like cause and effect with man applying his own concept of morality to it?

In other words, if you take something that doesn't belong to you, there will be an applicable and appropriate effect for that particular action/cause. Karma doesn't see this as necessarily good or bad, but just natural. While we humans fit our own man-made concepts of morality and perhaps "justice" to this natural process?

Ohhh, if that is it, then now I get it. I still don't agree with it, but I get it.

After re-reading my post above, I must correct myself.

If Karma is simply causality at work on a physical level, then I certainly find no reason to disagree with it. But if so, I suppose I must ask what the big deal is?

If water is exposed to tempratures at or below 32 degrees fahrenheit, it will freeze thereby converting from liquid to solid. Voila' . . . Karma.

If fire is isolated from its oxygen supply, it will suffocate and extinguish. Voila' . . . Karma.

I don't disagree with the concept of cause and effect. So, if that is what people mean when they refer to "Karma", then I get it.

But how is Karma different from physical causality? What is it about Karma, this principle of cause and effect, that makes it somehow a religious or spiritual principle?

 

[Storm]

Cause and effect is a force of nature, is it not? Karma is simply cause and effect.

I've heard this argument before, but I'm not sure I buy it.

I'm far from an expert, but doesn't karma carry over into the next life? That would seem to take it beyond simple cause and effect to a system of moral debt.

 

[no-body]

But how is Karma different from physical causality? What is it about Karma, this principle of cause and effect, that makes it somehow a religious or spiritual principle?

I'm only a layman when it comes to Buddhist doctrine, but from my understanding the purpose of trying to reach enlightenment/nirvana is to escape the wheel of karma and live in the here now.

 

[Riverwolf]

You write about misunderstanding a concept then take my words so literal; A characteristic of some people that subscribe to beliefs such as karma. I reason that people who follow religion and superstitious beliefs do so because they need some sort of reason for their existence. Why not just exist?

How very Daoist. ^_^

To elaborate, by empires I also mean heads of major corporations who gained their wealth in unjust ways.

I know.

Is Madoff a result of Karma?

Who?

Or is he just stupid for getting caught? I go for the latter.

What's the difference?

 

[Riverwolf]

I've heard this argument before, but I'm not sure I buy it.

I'm far from an expert, but doesn't karma carry over into the next life? That would seem to take it beyond simple cause and effect to a system of moral debt.

I'm one of the few dharmic followers who's agnostic about, leaning non-believer in, reincarnation.

If reincarnation does happen, I don't think any dharmic religion has its mechanics right. It'd most likely be random.

 

[Storm]

Fair enough.

 

[Raithie]

Who said karma has anything to do with higher justice? Two totally different concepts.

Well then how would it happen?

Most people also claim that it carries into the next life, meaning a higher justice, in order to rationalize how some people "get away" without the imposing effects of karma.

My argument is simple. There is no karma.

 

[Engyo]

How does the process of carrying over from one lifetime to the next imply a "higher justice"? You lost me on that one.........

 

[YmirGF]

Karma is a concept that otherwise intelligent people concocted in order to explain interactions they understood rather poorly. In order to prove my point, just look at some of the somewhat delirious responses in this thread supporting this unseemly concept. It's enough to make one just shake ones head and sigh. If only reality was so simplistic.

 

[YmirGF]

I'm only a layman when it comes to Buddhist doctrine, but from my understanding the purpose of trying to reach enlightenment/nirvana is to escape the wheel of karma and live in the here now.

Ah yes, that brilliant principle that there is no wheel and that the hampster runs in vain because it is not a hampster.

It's always precious when drivel is promoted into the ranks of genius.

 

[Engyo]

I always enjoy it when people who consider themselves smarter than others write condescendingly of their own intelligence and the others' lack thereof................{/sarcasm]

 

[YmirGF]

I always enjoy it when people who consider themselves smarter than others write condescendingly of their own intelligence and the others' lack thereof................{/sarcasm]

Hehe. If you thought that was condescending, I am reasonably sure I could do much, much better.

I thought I was being rather generous by saying "otherwise intelligent people".