Sensual desires are powerful, and the feeling of satisfaction is fleeting.
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Is killing inherently "evil"? And vegetarianism.
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
Sensual desires are powerful, and the feeling of satisfaction is fleeting.
Humans must kill to live. Are humans therefore inherently evil?
Not a useful way to think about it, in my view. About as useless as forgetting that plants are people too.
Not a useful way to think about it, in my view. About as useless as forgetting that plants are people too.
an anarchist
Your local loco.
Before I respond to your post as a whole, can you tell me what do you mean by this?
I'm an animist and environmental ethicist. "Person" - an entity with its own self-interests that is worthy of ethical consideration and respectful regard - doesn't just refer to humans for me.
Secret Chief
Veteran Member
Watch some youtube videos...
Heyo
Veteran Member
I recommend Alex O'Connor (CosmicSkeptic). Here are some of his videos on veganism: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=alex+o'connor+vegan+debate
an anarchist
Your local loco.
Do you equate killing an animal to killing a plant?
I believe there is a subjective line/threshold that needs to be crossed (in the context of consciousness) when people decide if they should kill something. Humans are fully conscious so all are generally against killing humans. Vegetarians I've talked to don't like the idea of eating conscious beings. Should they feel bad about eating plants instead of animals?
You'd have to convince me that eating animals is the same as eating plants. But here I am saying killing animals is bad just like killing humans. So is the logic you are applying to plants the same logic I am applying to animals?
Or have I misunderstood you?
When killing to satisfy a vital need (e.g., for food because your species is an obligate heterotroph like a human or any other animal), killing is killing. Something died to keep you alive. It's less about equivocation than recognizing the sacrifice of life-for-life will and must and will occur. Then asking - how do I give back and how did I honor this sacrifice?
Animistic cultures - which understood person much more broadly and did apply it to the land, animals, and plants - were not vegetarian. Instead of running away from the fact that humans must kill to live you are mindful of your relationships with the greater-than-human world and treat it with respect. You are part of a community, an ecosystem, something bigger than yourself and your species. The gifts the gods provide are many and they are there for you to take, but mindfully and with respect. They are to be honored. And giving back is a very important element of this practice.
I don't care about convincing you or anyone else of anything. But I have little respect for the "high ground" vegetarian types that more or less dodge their responsibilities to the greater-than-human world by creating a convenient "fall guy" for their perceived guilt or sins. It's not smart to ignore the plights of anything that isn't cute and furry and feathery, it's stupid (no offense). The entire ecosystem matters for our mutual flourishing, not just part of it.
Tomef
Well-Known Member
I went through several stages on the vegetarianism bit. 1, never gave it any thought, 2 switched mostly to high welfare meat from organic farms (my thinking was that animals don’t know they’re going to go die, so the important thing is quality of life), 3 after farming for a few years, I almost entirely cut out meat. Ours was mainly an arable farm, but we kept a herd of around 250 sheep. They did live well, totally free range and well looked after, BUT you start to realise sheep are just like your dog or your cat. Lambs play, have personality, are curious and individual like any other creature. That plus the fact that millions of tons of grain and other plants are produced every year, maybe billions, as fodder for animals we then kill and eat. It all seems a bit pointless. Finally, tho, I switched back to occasionally eating meat - and I feed my dogs meat - and I still eat fish, for health reasons. I seem to have better health if I eat meat occasionally, but I’m pescatarian about 85% of the time.
Lisa Sims
Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
Apparently our craving for meat, and excess food in general, stems from the fall of man (the choice to be independent rather than to seek One-ness with God.) The first parents, in their exalted state, were satisfied with fruits and vegetation because of the spiritual food they received from the Creator...Jesus also said, "...I have meat/food to eat that you know not of..." John 4:32
We have a communication from a space friend that on their planet (where their first parents choose One-ness with God) they eat only fruits, vegetables and some flavored beverages that are also natural. They don't kill animals and the animals don't kill each other other.
I believe this is the answer--that we must bring up our spirituality and that of the planet.
Aman, first parent, reveals his temptation and fall
"...We continued to live in the same place as formerly, but no more could we be satisfied with the spiritual food that had supplied our wants and enabled us to subdue the appetites which formed a part of our physical being. The physical then asserted itself and the spiritual became subjected to it, and we became as mortals now are, and had to find our substance in mother earth. We were compelled to till the soil and earn our living by work. I mean we had to work in order to make the earth supply us with food for our physical wants..." 8/29/1915
The Nutritional needs of the First Parents and of The Master
"...You read in the Padgett message which I channeled that after the Fall, “we [the first parents] continued to live in the same place as formerly, but no more could we be satisfied with the spiritual food that had supplied our wants and enabled us to subdue the appetites which formed a part of our physical being.” You are wondering what this spiritual food means, and how we nourished our bodies before the Fall...
...our personality was such that our physical body actually did not require what it later came to need...because we were in an exalted condition, our bodies simply did not have these same requirements...and had we not fallen, the nutritional needs of the human race would have remained as it was for us...
…Well, the “spiritual food” I referred to was the different balance of our soul with our body, which altered the biochemistry and the metabolism of our physical being. This altered state was radically different from anything humanity has ever experienced...
...Let me speak now about the Master. Because he experienced the New Birth soul condition as a mortal, his physical nature was directly affected, so it would be accurate to say that because of this, his nutritional needs were somewhat different from other mortals...he remained perfectly healthy through his faith, for this faith automatically attracted opportunities to feed his physical body...The Creator knew both what nutrition to provide him, and where to get this nutrition. And it is also fair to say that because the New Birth soul condition was his, consequently, his nutritional needs were altered...
...Well, we, the first parents, did not possess the New Birth, and yet we were more exalted physically than any other of our descendants…As it was, after the Fall, the physical nature asserted itself, and we immediately lost this exalted spiritual state. We both felt this profound change, and it was a terrible shock..." 1/24/2007
Joseph: On Joseph of Arimathea
"...Each and every soul has to make his or her relationship to God in the best way they can. Some people are predisposed to have insatiable appetites for spiritual food, and seek for it with never-ending zeal, while others are satisfied with less, even though they may not realize how dissatisfied they really are..." 2/6/2000
Orion Describes Himself and His Planet – Jesus Affirms Orion is Here to Help us on Earth
"…This, each of us must do as it is the Law of Creation that each soul is to be awakened in the great gift of Divine Love, as you call it, and must come with your individual desire and prayer. Yet this love is so thick in the atmosphere of our planet that it is easily obtained and it is a powerful influence upon everything that we do. We are not held back by mental blockages and doubts and error, as are you, my beloved friends. We are in harmony always and we seek harmony always...Because we are in such great harmony with God’s Laws and with the planet which we inhabit, we live much longer than you in the flesh. Several hundred years is our natural lifespan upon our planet..." 10/5/2021
Family, Government, Economy and Life on Orion’s Planet
"...We do not kill animals so that we may eat. Primarily we eat vegetables and fruit, pure water and we create various flavoured beverages that are natural as well. Animals are our friends. There are not as many animals upon our planet in terms of variation as yours but there is no predation on our planet either. Again, harmony prevails in this situation...Animals live together in harmony and live with us in harmony. Yes, we have pets, those animals that prefer to be with us and we communicate psychically together. Indeed we have conversations and we have interactions with those creatures that are well suited for what you would call domestication…" 12/7/2023
Joy and Healing
"...So, when we come, our interest is being with you when you receive the spiritual food that nourishes the soul, that embraces not only your spirit body, but affects your physical body and your environment in very positive and healing ways..." 3/18/2021
Jesus: On prayer
…but when the inner changes have occurred and the person is more peaceful in heart, he will reevaluate his attitude about his material needs and, even when there has been no change on the material level, he will count his blessings and believe there has been a change because his material needs are less. This goes hand-in-hand with fulfillment being a quality of the soul and how, when the soul is satisfied, the material desires seem satisfied also; or the desire for material things decreases as the seeking for spiritual food increases… date not known
Source: Jesus' Second Coming Message Series, 1914 to present, soultruth.ca, new-birth.net
"God is Love and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him"
"God is Love, and Love is something we can pray for"
"God is Love..."
Tell everyone, for as Ezekiel says, "...the time is short and the work is great..." 4/31/2024
Technology and Inter-stellar Support
"...Without the functioning of technology on my planet, I would not be here today for I am allowed the privilege of travelling from my physical body which I possess to coming here with my spirit body to this place. Technology allows my physical body to be sustained over a long period of time while I visit you for that duration of time. I come to help encourage you and uplift you, to reassure you, to be one of God’s instruments, to help educate you and to be a channel of love for you...
...If but 15% of your population were to follow the path that you follow, to discover the truths that you know, and enact them in their lives, there would be no need for the upheavals and challenges that are coming in the physical plane. The power of that minority would change the spiritual conditions of your world permanently..." Orion, 3/26/2023
John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."
"Could you not watch with me one hour?"
Many blessings...
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Twilight Hue
Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's just the way nature works. I don't view it as being either good nor evil.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Shouldn't the minimizing of suffering be taken into consideration? Plants don't experience pain, fear, or sorrow like animals do.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
But where do you draw the line?
I will never forget my sweet dad saying to me, "One time I turned on the light in the garage, and there was a huge roach in the middle of the floor. It completely froze, and then took off toward a corner, and ran along the wall. I killed it but I sure did feel bad about it later. It wasn't doing anything to hurt me, and it didn't want to die."
an anarchist
Your local loco.
My exwife would safely escort even BLACK WIDOWS outside instead of smashing them. So I've seen people draw the line at various sentient beings.
I'd say bugs are more sentient than plants, but maybe plants feel more than I know.
This is a false dichotomy. It is quite possible to eat meat without inflicting suffering on animals. IOW, you can have your meat and your morals too.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Who knows? No bugs or plants are talking to us.
InChrist
Free4ever
I don’t see any correlation between WW2 deaths, human killing in self-defense, or human murders.
I was a vegetarian at one time. I wouldn’t be one again because certain important amino acids and other nutrients are lacking in a diet without meat. I do recommend healthy grass fed meat, though, over feed lot meat.
As well, from a biblical perspective, God gave humans animals to be for food, at least after the fall. Just one of the consequences of sin.
Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. Genesis 9:3
Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake;
1 Corinthians 10:25
an anarchist
Your local loco.
Can you elaborate?
The only scenario I can imagine eating an animal without making it suffer is if the animal dies of natural causes and I eat the remains.
Even if a farmer gives animals a decent upbringing, they still snuff out their lives early. The act of being killed is receiving suffering.
an anarchist
Your local loco.
So, in your view, you don't feel bad about the plight of animals, but rather justified in the industrialized slaughter of animals. Am I right so far?
What led you to be vegetarian in the first place for a time?
I do wonder if you have put personal thought in your part in contributing to the suffering of animals via meat eating. You allow the Bible to guide you, correct? So, if the Bible gives the seal of approval, no need to worry about contemplating the morality of it. Am I correct in my characterization of your perspective?
As you state eating an already dead animal is one way to eliminate (or reduce) any inflicted suffering on the animal. Another way is to only eat meat products that are non-invasive. For example, eating an egg doesn't require imposing any suffering upon the hen that laid it. Furthermore the amount of suffering imposed on an animal harvested is not all or nothing but is a scalar. Harvesting techniques vary in the amount of suffering induced. So it could be argued that a blanket prohibition on animal suffering is not required but rather a principle of minimizing such suffering instead.
Nor do I accept your assertion that every act of killing is receiving suffering. If you still disagree you would need to, for example, eliminate all euthanasia of suffering animals as practiced by veterinarians.