Is killing inherently "evil"? And vegetarianism.

[Kathryn]

What about culling herds? Like to minimize suffering from disease, overcrowding, etc.

 

[SalixIncendium]

This is a false dichotomy. It is quite possible to eat meat without inflicting suffering on animals. IOW, you can have your meat and your morals too.

Are you sure you want to do this dance again? It didn't go so well for you last year.

 

[Father Heathen]

But where do you draw the line?

I will never forget my sweet dad saying to me, "One time I turned on the light in the garage, and there was a huge roach in the middle of the floor. It completely froze, and then took off toward a corner, and ran along the wall. I killed it but I sure did feel bad about it later. It wasn't doing anything to hurt me, and it didn't want to die."

I'm just saying that "killing is killing" ignores that animals can suffer in ways that plants cannot.

 

[an anarchist]

Nor do I accept your assertion that every act of killing is receiving suffering. If you still disagree you would need to, for example, eliminate all euthanasia of suffering animals as practiced by veterinarians.

I can accept that we disagree, but I also need to point out that veterinarians euthanizing suffering animals is not the same as killing animals for meat.

But you did make me realize I left euthanizing/mercy killing out of the conversation. Just didn't think about it.

 

[Shaul]

Are you sure you want to do this dance again? It didn't go so well for you last year.

Au contraire, I feel quite good and confident about my positions. But I'm not dancing, others are the ones doing soft shoe shuffling.

 

[Shaul]

I can accept that we disagree, but I also need to point out that veterinarians euthanizing suffering animals is not the same as killing animals for meat.

But you did make me realize I left euthanizing/mercy killing out of the conversation. Just didn't think about it.

Nobody said they were the same all together. But both are the same in that killing of an animal is involved. You stated that all killing of animals produces suffering. It is upon you to square that with the necessary killing done by veterinarians.

 

[an anarchist]

Nobody said they were the same all together. But both are the same in that killing of an animal is involved. You stated that all killing of animals produces suffering. It is upon you to square that with the necessary killing done by veterinarians.

Well I simply walk back that statement. Generally, the killing of animals, such as for food, causes suffering. This does not include euthanizing suffering animals.

 

[Shaul]

Well I simply walk back that statement. Generally, the killing of animals, such as for food, causes suffering. This does not include euthanizing suffering animals.

There is no evidence you have produced that the killing of an animal to provide food requires suffering.

 

[InChrist]

So, in your view, you don't feel bad about the plight of animals, but rather justified in the industrialized slaughter of animals. Am I right so far?

As I said, I prefer humanly raised grass fed animals for meat.. I consider industrial farmed animals to be mistreated and unhealthy.

What led you to be vegetarian in the first place for a time?

I was a vegetarian years ago because I thought it was healthier, but have since realized it’s not.

I do wonder if you have put personal thought in your part in contributing to the suffering of animals via meat eating. You allow the Bible to guide you, correct? So, if the Bible gives the seal of approval, no need to worry about contemplating the morality of it. Am I correct in my characterization of your perspective?

Of course I feel bad that animals are killed for food. I love animals. Nevertheless, it is just the condition of this fallen world that death happens; animals kill other animals for food and human beings kill animals for food. Plants are living organisms also killed for food. I have hope in the promise of a new heaven and earth where there will be no more suffering or death.

My perspective concerning the Bible is God’s revelation and that God’s wisdom and morality is far superior to my finite human understanding.

 

[Tamino]

I'm just saying that "killing is killing" ignores that animals can suffer in ways that plants cannot.

I'd say that there are differences of degree, but there are no clear separations.

A vertebrate feels fear and pain differently from a mushroom, true. Killing a pig - a highly intelligent and social animal with many potential years of life expectancy - is different from killing an adult mayfly , that has a life expectancy measured in hours.
But in the end, killing is still killing, and it is an inherent part of our world. Many species, in the absence of predators, would explode in population size and then self-destruct when their food sources run out. And Evolution only works if offspring is produced in excess, and natural selection picks off the less well adapted individuals.
All of that doesn't make killing good, and doesn't relieve the pain and suffering of the individual being... but we need to acknowledge that death is a necessary part of our world, with all its ugly sides.

I, personally, am very soft hearted... I try to avoid killing and suffering if I can, especially if there's no need for me to kill. Each time a mosquito lands on my arm I hesitate and consider if a can't spare the blood and tolerate the itching (I usually kill them, though - it's self defense). But other insects are carefully escorted out of the house and spiders are welcome to live in the corners... Last year I put off cleaning the edges of my windows, because spiders were hatching their young there, and this year we share the patio with a nest of hornets (0 stings so far, they are quite peaceful neighbours).
I eat little meat and try to reduce dairy product, but I don't object to killing animals for food in general. Just, as @Quintessence said: be aware of what you're doing, and don't disrespect your food: It died so you can live.

 

[Balthazzar]

Is killing inherently "bad" or "evil"?

The Allies killing Nazis in WW2: "not bad" is the general consensus
Killing in self defense: "not bad" is the general consensus
Killing animals for food: "not bad" is the general consensus

I want to focus on the last point about the animals.

For many of us more privileged humans, we don't have to eat meat. We are omnivores, and can choose to be vegetarians. Should we be vegetarian?

I don't assume slaughterhouses are fun for animals. Is it wrong for us as consumers to contribute to this mass suffering of animals by buying and eating meat? Or does the suffering of animals matter little?

I think many will agree that killing Nazis in WW2 and killing in self defense is a-okay. But I feel that carnivorism is less defensible.

An animal's suffering is industrialized due to us being meat eaters. Is this ok with you?

I love meat, but I do aspire to one day be vegetarian. I feel guilty whenever I eat meat. An animal suffered and died for my meal.

Is it inherently evil for fish to eat other types of fish, or for lions, tigers, and cheetahs, and snakes, and rats, and mice, and opossum, and birds, etc. to eat other types of animals, and bugs, and worms, etc?

No, it's not inherently evil. Thinking it's evil is a human construct initiated to give self a false sense of piety. Is it it inherently evil to kill other humans (murder) in my opinion it most certainly is. Not only does it disrupt more civil relations between us, this type of event doesn't happen all that often in the animal kingdom, to which we belong. It does happen, and we have an innate understanding that it is wrong, even among other animals of same type. I could choose to be a vegetarian or a Vegan, but I'm not. I'm omnivorous and my digestive system helps ensure greater longevity as a species. I could cater to my sensitivities and choose it anyway, but I don't think we were ever meant to do so.

 

[Secret Chief]

It is quite possible to eat meat without inflicting suffering on animals.

Presumably you don't consider killing to be suffering.

 

[Secret Chief]

For example, eating an egg doesn't require imposing any suffering upon the hen that laid it.

Depends on the conditions it is kept in and the male chicks in the egg industry are killed. Oh wait, that isn't suffering.

 

[Secret Chief]

It is upon you to square that with the necessary killing done by veterinarians.

Vets are carrying out an act of compassion. To think that it is comparable to the mass abuse, suffering and killing in the meat industry is deplorable.

 

[Quintessence]

Shouldn't the minimizing of suffering be taken into consideration? Plants don't experience pain, fear, or sorrow like animals do.

I don't care.

That someone experiences the world differently from ourselves - regardless of what anthropocentric criteria you want to use - is not relevant when it comes to treating someone as a being rather than thing. Where it is relevant is in understanding what flourishing looks like for them and aiming to support mutual flourishing. As a Druid and a botanist I have invested a great deal more time in getting to know our plant friends than most. The lack of consideration for our green friends is... it bothers me a lot, honestly. I would not consider failing to honor the death of green friends so I can live. That is just icky to me.

 

[osgart]

This nature and life isn't moral. Morals traps I consider to be commonplace. Killing animals is just a forced necessity of survival for many people. There's a lot people do to rationalize it. I think the biggest rationale used is that animals live miserable lives anyways. Another is that animals have no souls, or can't decide much on a moral level.

However to completely disregard morality we would all be living and dying savagely. To be weak on morals would also lead to destruction of the human race.

Unfortunately with animals humans have to live with best available outcomes that are less than morally sufficient. I prefer not to kill at all. My conscience is never to murder, but I've always eaten meat.

A lot of people judge morals on the quality of life one can live, and/or whether or not a person can achieve anything and contribute to society. I base my morality on innocence and capacity to care. I look at life as sacred.

The one moral that we can't afford to lose is the sanctity and equality of human life because of their capacity to care, love, and be innocent of malevolence. This moral directly correlates to quality of life as well.

If I had one justification for eating meat it's that animals live sub quality lives of desperation and extreme suffering anyways. Of course that may be debatable.

 

[Shaul]

Presumably you don't consider killing to be suffering.

They are distinct words, ergo they obviously are not the exact same things.

 

[Shaul]

Depends on the conditions it is kept in and the male chicks in the egg industry are killed. Oh wait, that isn't suffering.

The conditions the hen is kept in is independent of the eating of its eggs. Eating an egg has nothing to do with any killing of male chicks in some unspecified, unnamed "egg industry". Your post assumes things that may not be and completely ignores that I included the words, "does not require". Eating an egg does not require the hen to suffer.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't care.

That someone experiences the world differently from ourselves - regardless of what anthropocentric criteria you want to use - is not relevant when it comes to treating someone as a being rather than thing. Where it is relevant is in understanding what flourishing looks like for them and aiming to support mutual flourishing. As a Druid and a botanist I have invested a great deal more time in getting to know our plant friends than most. The lack of consideration for our green friends is... it bothers me a lot, honestly. I would not consider failing to honor the death of green friends so I can live. That is just icky to me.

Let's say that a basket of kittens and a basket of fruit are both suspended over a pool of lava, and you could only save one while the other would plummet into the lava below. Would you have difficulty making that choice?

 

[Heyo]

Depends on the conditions it is kept in and the male chicks in the egg industry are killed. Oh wait, that isn't suffering.

Also, by pro-lifer logic, eating an egg (a "baby" chicken) is more evil than eating a chicken.