Is living a gay/lesbian lifestyle a problem with God?

[LyricalDutchess]

I remember when I use to think that. And then I came to terms with all the things I had been denying about myself and I must say I am happier than I have ever been, and it's a blessing to wake up loving yourself rather than hating yourself.

We all have a choice on which path we choose.

 

[Cosmos]

So you're saying that Ancient Egypt was an unsuccessful culture? Define successful.

I think actually, every culture in history has had some gay people having gay relationships.

Defining success of civilization is an important feature for understanding what builds and what decays a society and its culture. To be blunt and honest, anyone can agree that without a man and a woman there would be no society, let alone culture or civilization. While it is absolutely true that every culture has had homosexuality, often it marks the declining period of said society, such as the Graeco-Romans, for example. Note that the pharaonic dynasties of Egypt were, too, often corrupted families of hedonists. Take the eunuchs of ancient China, who were forced into service in the harems, as this is an example of how certain aspects of homosexuality originates from slavery.

So, what builds and transforms a society, and what decays it? Well, as a Baha'i, I look at the history of civilization as inspired. A successful civilization has revolutionary arts, advanced sciences and mathematics, inspired literature, and most importantly, cultural propriety. And while homosexuals have been known to contribute to civilization in various capacities, I personally argue that they cannot progress it--merely on the basis that there is not a single culture who honors same-sex relationships and there is not a single society that has not fallen when cultural propriety falters.:slap:

 

[Duck]

Defining success of civilization is an important feature for understanding what builds and what decays a society and its culture. To be blunt and honest, anyone can agree that without a man and a woman there would be no society, let alone culture or civilization. While it is absolutely true that every culture has had homosexuality, often it marks the declining period of said society, such as the Graeco-Romans, for example. Note that the pharaonic dynasties of Egypt were, too, often corrupted families of hedonists. Take the eunuchs of ancient China, who were forced into service in the harems, as this is an example of how certain aspects of homosexuality originates from slavery.

So, what builds and transforms a society, and what decays it? Well, as a Baha'i, I look at the history of civilization as inspired. A successful civilization has revolutionary arts, advanced sciences and mathematics, inspired literature, and most importantly, cultural propriety. And while homosexuals have been known to contribute to civilization in various capacities, I personally argue that they cannot progress it--merely on the basis that there is not a single culture who honors same-sex relationships and there is not a single society that has not fallen when cultural propriety falters.:slap:

Cultural propriety would be relevant to the culture in question, NOT to our modern eyes. One could point out that the Roman empire fell due to various internal forces that weakened it, ultimately resulting in the inability of the Empire to withstand external invasion. One could easily draw a conclusion (subject to fallacy regarding causation) that since the first such barbarian invasion happened after the conversion of Constantine, and the subsequent introduction of christianity as the official roman religion, that the fall of the Roman empire was due to the loss of Roman cultural propriety in favor of christian cultural propriety.

Homosexuality in Greco-Roman culture existed and was fully accepted by cultural propriety during the RISE to prominence of said cultures as well, so the argument that homosexuality led to the downfall of said empires is invalid. One could argue that the downfall of said empires only occurred after a shift in moral standards led to wide spread disapproval of homosexuality.

 

[Mr Cheese]

God is a bigot...

the bible told me so.

Questions?

 

[Mr Cheese]

Defining success of civilization is an important feature for understanding what builds and what decays a society and its culture. To be blunt and honest, anyone can agree that without a man and a woman there would be no society, let alone culture or civilization. While it is absolutely true that every culture has had homosexuality, often it marks the declining period of said society, such as the Graeco-Romans, for example. Note that the pharaonic dynasties of Egypt were, too, often corrupted families of hedonists. Take the eunuchs of ancient China, who were forced into service in the harems, as this is an example of how certain aspects of homosexuality originates from slavery.

So, what builds and transforms a society, and what decays it? Well, as a Baha'i, I look at the history of civilization as inspired. A successful civilization has revolutionary arts, advanced sciences and mathematics, inspired literature, and most importantly, cultural propriety. And while homosexuals have been known to contribute to civilization in various capacities, I personally argue that they cannot progress it--merely on the basis that there is not a single culture who honors same-sex relationships and there is not a single society that has not fallen when cultural propriety falters.:slap:

gay people make good hair dressers (see that film" dont mess with the zohan)
as such, society would fall if there were no hair dressers

QED: we need more spandex

 

[Autodidact]

Defining success of civilization is an important feature for understanding what builds and what decays a society and its culture. To be blunt and honest, anyone can agree that without a man and a woman there would be no society, let alone culture or civilization. While it is absolutely true that every culture has had homosexuality, often it marks the declining period of said society, such as the Graeco-Romans, for example. Note that the pharaonic dynasties of Egypt were, too, often corrupted families of hedonists. Take the eunuchs of ancient China, who were forced into service in the harems, as this is an example of how certain aspects of homosexuality originates from slavery.

So, what builds and transforms a society, and what decays it? Well, as a Baha'i, I look at the history of civilization as inspired. A successful civilization has revolutionary arts, advanced sciences and mathematics, inspired literature, and most importantly, cultural propriety. And while homosexuals have been known to contribute to civilization in various capacities, I personally argue that they cannot progress it--merely on the basis that there is not a single culture who honors same-sex relationships and there is not a single society that has not fallen when cultural propriety falters.:slap:

You used the word successful as a criteria for some civilizations. Can you tell us what you meant by that word? How do we identify a successful, as opposed to an unsuccessful, civilization, in your view?

For example, what on earth are "revolutionary arts?" Obviously, if by "cultural propriety," you mean not accepting its gay members, then no "successful" civilization could accept gay people, by definition. That's what we would call a circular definition, as well, for most people, a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Would you consider these civilizations successful:
Han China
Aztec
Pharaonic Egypt
Ancient Greece
modern Western Europe
Gupta India
Ancient Rome

Why or why not?

 

[Mr Cheese]

no true scotsman is a lesbian

qed being gay does not involve haggis

 

[Duck]

You used the word successful as a criteria for some civilizations. Can you tell us what you meant by that word? How do we identify a successful, as opposed to an unsuccessful, civilization, in your view?

For example, what on earth are "revolutionary arts?" Obviously, if by "cultural propriety," you mean not accepting its gay members, then no "successful" civilization could accept gay people, by definition. That's what we would call a circular definition, as well, for most people, a No True Scotsman fallacy.

Would you consider these civilizations successful:
Han China
Aztec
Pharaonic Egypt
Ancient Greece
modern Western Europe
Gupta India
Ancient Rome

Why or why not?

Auto, my guess, and I hope that Cosmos would correct me if I am wrong, is that there is only one 'successful' culture in existence, and you didn't list it. Lee Greenwood wrote a song about it. Modern Western Europe doesn't qualify because they are all 'socialists' and we just know cool that being 'socialists' would be totally disqualifying from the cultural 'propriety' aspect of the qualifier list given.

My personal take is that all of those were successful civilizations, and one could probably add Shogunate Japan, the Zulu, ancient Persia (Hammurabi was Persian, right?), and the Phoenicians.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Honestly I think Cosmos is just a bigot. You guys are still reading that homophobe?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Interesting that you think others positions different from yours is so funny. So...I suppose you have placed me on your "ignore" list as you threaten Cosmos...I suppose that is a good thing.

Because...I do not believe there is such a thing as a 'moderate' Christian anyway. Being a Christian is a way of life...not something you can only be half-way or halfheartedly.

So...either be all the way or drop that pretence that you are something you are definitely not. Christ stated that luke-warm people made Him sick...they make him want to vomit....

No, but since you insist, and you seem so arrogant and full of hate, accusing the brethren, I'll place you on ignore now.

 

[Duck]

So...either be all the way or drop that pretence that you are something you are definitely not. Christ stated that luke-warm people made Him sick...they make him want to vomit....

So now, in addition to equating same-sex relationships to beastiality, you get to define who is and is not a follower of your faith? Wow. And here I thought that there was some reference from your christ about judging others or some such. I could be wrong, though.

And could you give a verse reference for that whole WMJP (who makes Jesus Puke?) line you give there at the end? I don't really remember it from my southern-baptist days 30 years ago.

 

[Autodidact]

Take the eunuchs of ancient China, who were forced into service in the harems, as this is an example of how certain aspects of homosexuality originates from slavery.

This may be one of the most bizarre, twisted, irrational statements I will ever read on the internet. In ancient China, castrated men served in harems (no idea if this is true, but irrelevant) therefore homosexuality originates in slavery? Try to turn off the noise in your head and think for just a moment. Castrated men have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. Homosexuality has nothing to do with slavery.

Homosexuality is a variant on human sexuality in which one prefers a partner of the same, rather than different, sex. That is all. It's a lot like heterosexuality, except everyone is the same sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with eunuchs, slavery, collapsing civilizations or pasta. It's just another way to be a person.

 

[Duck]

This may be one of the most bizarre, twisted, irrational statements I will ever read on the internet. In ancient China, castrated men served in harems (no idea if this is true, but irrelevant) therefore homosexuality originates in slavery? Try to turn off the noise in your head and think for just a moment. Castrated men have absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. Homosexuality has nothing to do with slavery.

Homosexuality is a variant on human sexuality in which one prefers a partner of the same, rather than different, sex. That is all. It's a lot like heterosexuality, except everyone is the same sex. It has nothing whatsoever to do with eunuchs, slavery, collapsing civilizations or pasta. It's just another way to be a person.

I know, I was completely flummoxed by the castrated slaves = homosexuality line. I thought maybe he had fallen for the Fezzick fallacy (you keep using that word...) and somehow equated eunuch with intact male, and then assumed that there would be normal sex drives involved with some sort of gay for pay thing going on (you know the only possible outlet would be another guy, so close your eyes and think of england). Then I think that I hurt myself trying for the triple gainer with an extra twist off the 10m platform... As for the homosexuality/slavery thing, maybe he has watched one too many Tom 'Ropes' McGurk flicks?

 

[Mr Cheese]

all homosexuals are castrated?

uh....

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We all have a choice on which path we choose.

And on any given day, I will choose my happiness, serenity, and inner tranquility that I know and have now over my past misery, grief, and inner struggles and turmoil.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While it is absolutely true that every culture has had homosexuality, often it marks the declining period of said society, such as the Graeco-Romans, for example. Note that the pharaonic dynasties of Egypt were, too, often corrupted families of hedonists. Take the eunuchs of ancient China, who were forced into service in the harems, as this is an example of how certain aspects of homosexuality originates from slavery.

The rise of Christianity is in part to blame for the fall of Rome, and gradually to the rise of the Dark Ages. The fall of Christianity gave rise to the Renaissance.

 

[Autodidact]

I know, I was completely flummoxed by the castrated slaves = homosexuality line. I thought maybe he had fallen for the Fezzick fallacy (you keep using that word...) and somehow equated eunuch with intact male, and then assumed that there would be normal sex drives involved with some sort of gay for pay thing going on (you know the only possible outlet would be another guy, so close your eyes and think of england). Then I think that I hurt myself trying for the triple gainer with an extra twist off the 10m platform... As for the homosexuality/slavery thing, maybe he has watched one too many Tom 'Ropes' McGurk flicks?

It does offer an insightful but disturbing peek into the homophobic mind.

 

[Autodidact]

And on any given day, I will choose my happiness, serenity, and inner tranquility that I know and have now over my past misery, grief, and inner struggles and turmoil.

What? You choose happiness and serenity over guilt and torment? What's wrong with you?!?!

 

[Autodidact]

all homosexuals are castrated?

uh....

Apparently Cosmos has not spent much time perusing gay porn.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

We all have a choice on which path we choose.

If you are born in a Christian family you chances increase 10 fold to be a Christian. If you are born in a Muslim country there is very little chance of becoming a Christian. Do you believe that God puts the souls he hates into famlys of non-Christians that way they will go to Hell ?

The same is true of Homosexuals. Christians have had no luck getting gay folks to become straight. May be God gives them these desires be cause he hates them and desires them in Hell ?