Is living a gay/lesbian lifestyle a problem with God?

[Mr Cheese]

My point in relating the example of Chinese eunuchs is to convey some ASPECTS of homosexuality's history. The use of eunuchs for sexual gratification is, again, merely an example of how slavery has produced homosexual behavior. ).

eunuchs are castrated....

like wow.... this subject has whack jobs from all sides

 

[Mr Cheese]

I'm still trying to understand what on earth ancient Chinese Eunuchs are supposed to have with modern homosexuality. .

It must be somethign in his wontons...????

 

[Duck]

No, that is not my position at all. Nor should anyone attempt to forcibly convert someone into any lifestyle, religious or secular. However, it adequately answer the matter of "Do you think that defining homosexuality as 'not a sin' and or allowing same-sex HUMAN couples to jointly file income-taxes via the institution of marriage will really result in ALL men turning gay?": It's not at all a silly issue of inferiority or xenophobic malice, but an understanding that culture influences the perspectives of people. Homosexuals can live their lifestyle as freely as they wish, so long as that is not at the expense of society, particularly traditional (not fundamental) religious communities, forfeiting its own ethics. More importantly, this goes beyond the issue of homosexuals, as the moral code applies to heterosexuals, as well. Life is a responsibility and sexuality needs to be exercised responsibly, for the health of the individual and for the society.

Can you point out (by providing a link to a mainstream media source) an actual "threat to traditional religious communities forfeiting its own ethics" caused by the secular recognition of homosexual relationships in the United States? Please note the secular. If a religious group or community changes its own beliefs or ethics that is its own business and right, so please don't proclaim the election of some LGBT bishop, vicar, or deacon by vote or acclaim from within the community as proof. Nor do I want some, "it happened in the UK! so it is coming here, we are so per-see-kuted" claim. Other countries are not the US, nor do they have the same system of government in place, examples there do not apply here.

 

[Autodidact]

Okay, thank you for asking a straightforward question that we can break down to get some understanding between the two of us without irritation or negative ill-will.

I don't mean to argue for the sake of battling.

My point in relating the example of Chinese eunuchs is to convey some ASPECTS of homosexuality's history. The use of eunuchs for sexual gratification is, again, merely an example of how slavery has produced homosexual behavior. If we observe carefully, we will find there's two categories of homosexual behavior: That induced by trauma (i.e. slavery) and the dominance of upper classes or privileged classes. One is a victim and the other victimizer.

Still waiting for you to explain on what planet there is an iota of connection between the subject of eunuchs and homosexuality. EUNUCHS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HISTORY OF HOMOSEXUALITY. Why on earth would you think they have a shred of relevance?

Heterosexual history is rife with examples of sexual slavery, coming right down to the present day. I suppose eunuchs could be included as an odd offshoot of that, but certainly not of homosexuality, as they have NOTHING ON EARTH TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT.

Homosexuality has no more to do with slavery, and really less, than heterosexuality. You could write an entire history of heterosexuality in terms of slavery, dominance and submission, but it would be an incomplete, although relevant, part of the history of that institution.

Many ancient societies practiced slavery, so there some entanglement between slavery and sexuality in many ancient societies. That doesn't have much bearing on modern homosexuality. It is relevant to modern heterosexuality in male-dominant societies. Female sexual slavery still thrives in many places in the world. That subject does not seem to interest you; indeed, you seem singularly uninterested in anything to do with women.

The main "category" of homosexual behavior in the modern west is relationships between equal partners. For some reason you are ignorant of this, although it is all around you.

Homosexuality is not cut and dry. Neither is heterosexuality. Sexuality itself is an expression of self, which often is ever elusive. Slavery is not necessarily an economic or social reality, but a spiritual reality. Again, refer back to the hedonistic pharaonic dynasties or the militaristic societies of Greece and Rome. These are real valid historical examples of what sexual promiscuity induces in civilization.

Please continue to ask questions and further the dialogue as my purpose is to share perspectives and enlighten (including myself).

Yes, but why would you bring this up in a thread about homosexuality, where it has no relevance? If you wish to discuss sexual promiscuity, you may want to start a thread on the subject.

 

[Cosmos]

Apparently several individuals are historically uneducated and stuck on semantics. Rather than me provide the obvious materials, I encourage individuals to do their own research. If no one here is aware of the use of eunuchs as sex slaves or the actual legal definition used in ancient times to describe "natural" and "mutilated" eunuchs, that is not a fault of my being a homophobic gay-basher or some other presupposed nonsense, but the lack of education from fellow members of the forum.

My actual point, Autodidactic, was to point out the common factor of what is discussed in religious communities with conservative ethics on certain issues, which is why I tried not singling out homosexuality exclusively, though the topic. And why is the LGBT important in the discussion? Again, either most of you are teenagers or just very young people who don't do a whole lot of actual reading.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Eunuch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia there, sex slaves...granted

This still does not have anythign to do with condemnation of homsexuality

Your logic is still inherantly flawed.

You are saying homosexuality is bad because it has been produced by a sexual slave trade

As such, we could argue then that hetero sexual sex is just as evil...as frankly there have been hetero sex slaves from time immemorial...

:sarcastic:sarcastic

 

[Cosmos]

Eunuch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia there, sex slaves...granted

This still does not have anythign to do with condemnation of homsexuality

Your logic is still inherantly flawed.

You are saying homosexuality is bad because it has been produced by a sexual slave trade

As such, we could argue then that hetero sexual sex is just as evil...as frankly there have been hetero sex slaves from time immemorial...

:sarcastic:sarcastic

:ignore:

Don't make yourself look foolish. You need to actually do some reading. Read the entirety of my comments. I never stated homosexuality itself originates in slavery as if this was a definitive fact!

What I stated was that many aspects of homosexuality can be observed through societal enslavement, including hyper-masculine militaristic cultures. Yes, the same is documented in the case of female slavery, as well, in male dominated societies, but it is exactly this aspect of early civilizations that needs to be addressed, because it is this hyper-masculinity that breeds homosexuality (my argument). No traditional culture has ever honored homosexual relationships. We only observe this, again, in privileged classes where victimization and exploitation of slaves and workers are the norm, and every society heavily prevalent in homosexual behavior has collapsed. For example, when we look into biblical history and we read the narrative of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Book of Genesis, and also related in the Qur'an, it is not merely homosexuality that God decides to punish a people--no, it was because these cities of the plains were corrupted with rape, highway banditry, and murder!

To reiterate--sex is not evil. Nor is the love of a man for another man, or a woman for a woman. Not even when these emotions become sexual urges and desires! On an emotional and psychological level, when in sync, are not wrong doings, but to unhealthily express sexuality is a grievous error we must all discipline ourselves in controlling.

 

[Mr Cheese]

No traditional culture has ever honored homosexual relationships.

Celtic and aboriginal american cultures are not traditional (off the top of my head)???

hmmmmm

what is your criteria for traditional?

hyper male?...so the effeminate homosexual is just a blip of non existance on your radar of sexual sociology?

.............

According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" are strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because of openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).[40] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."[41] In book VIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC, wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together and "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused" (Diod 5:32). Rankin argues that the ultimate source of these assertions is likely to be Poseidonius and speculates that these authors may be recording male "bonding rituals".[42][43][44][45]

1. <LI id=cite_note-42>^ Borris, Kenneth (2003). Same-Sex Desire in the English Renaissance: A Sourcebook of Texts, 1470-1650. Routledge. p. 211. ISBN 0815336268. Same-sex desire in the English ... - Google Books. Retrieved 2009-09-18.
2. ^ Dynes, Wayne R. (1990). Encyclopedia of Homosexuality. Garland Pub.. p. 209. ISBN 1410206203. Encyclopedia of homosexuality - Google Books. Retrieved 2009-09-18.

Celts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mr Cheese]

Like Mystics of all other continents and ages, the Native American Gay was a Robe-clad figure of extreme veneration and honor, without whose services the society itself could not have functioned smoothly. While the Gay Male was also the invariable butt of countless giggled innuendos whenever he was seen in the company of a new 'husband,' they were the giggles not of derision but of playful banter; and the unique status of the Berdache was valued so highly that any man lucky enough to win the sexual favors of the tribal Ishvara knew they had finally made it big-time; "what a MAN he must be," all of the people would be saying as he passed, and he knew that. "Why, he even pleases the He/She, and you KNOW how choosey HE is!"
Recent discoveries in the Incan region of South America have uncovered the remains of a vast labyrinth-maze of ruined Temples filled with artwork, pottery and sculptured images which prove that this Berdache Spirituality extended the whole length and breadth of the Americas. Early men of the Andes could travel to the Mystical City and walk through the maze of hallways to choose which of the many Berdache Medicine Men they wanted to relate with as both Seer, Healer, Counselor and sexual Lover all in one.
Less is currently known of the Lesbian traditions within Native American cultures.. largely due to the continued strength and secrecy of the Women's Societies (female "clans" devoted specifically to women's issues and activities.) Certainly women were free to pursue any traditionally male pursuit they chose.. including the Warrior Path. Since women were traditionally viewed as intuitive, nurturing and 'wise,' they were often associated with spirituality in the popular mind, and many women served as Medicine Workers, Healers and Shamans. Hopefully, future disclosures will fill-in the details currently missing about the role of homosexuality in Native Women's Societies.

Homosexual Spirituality

 

[Mr Cheese]

but to unhealthily express sexuality is a grievous error we must all discipline ourselves in controlling.

this much I can agree with....

 

[Cosmos]

These are great facts to present--of which I am not ignorant. However, I never stated that homosexuality never existed in any culture, my essential point is the honoring of these societies. Certainly... there are Native American, Celtic, and other forms of homosexual spirituality or culture. My argument is there are several explanations for these phenomenon. For example, my fiance is Celtic descended and quite knowledgeable of her history, and it is her opinion that the history of the Celtic men indulging in homosexual behavior was due to the continuous warfare that this culture endured--in other words hyper-masculine characteristics exactly as the Graeco-Romans.

In the case of the Native Americans and their tranny veneration, this is no different than East Asian cultures venerating their transvestites. I mean, we observe this readily in ancient Cretans, Egyptians, and every other major civilization in history, including Hindu culture with sects who venerate with she-male sexually, so really I have not and cannot argue that you're not presenting accurate information, but it's still context that's important. That you mention the "Warrior Path" is another perfect example of how militarism effects the sexuality of a society--I would argue in adverse ways. Neither is the veneration of homosexuals and transvestites universal, as my fiance is also of Native background and can readily provide the fact that this is isolated to particular tribal customs. My final note on why particular tribes or groups of people decide to practice homosexuality and/or bisexualism on a cultural level is often due to the arid, hostile, and isolated nature of the environment where a man may go for weeks or months before having contact with the opposite sex, such as the Andes people.

Thank you for the info.

 

[Mr Cheese]

These are great facts to present--of which I am not ignorant. However, I never stated that homosexuality never existed in any culture, my essential point is the honoring of these societies. Certainly... there are Native American, Celtic, and other forms of homosexual spirituality or culture. My argument is there are several explanations for these phenomenon. For example, my fiance is Celtic descended and quite knowledgeable of her history, and it is her opinion that the history of the Celtic men indulging in homosexual behavior was due to the continuous warfare that this culture endured--in other words hyper-masculine characteristics exactly as the Graeco-Romans.

In the case of the Native Americans and their tranny veneration, this is no different than East Asian cultures venerating their transvestites. I mean, we observe this readily in ancient Cretans, Egyptians, and every other major civilization in history, including Hindu culture with sects who venerate with she-male sexually, so really I have not and cannot argue that you're not presenting accurate information, but it's still context that's important. That you mention the "Warrior Path" is another perfect example of how militarism effects the sexuality of a society--I would argue in adverse ways. Neither is the veneration of homosexuals and transvestites universal, as my fiance is also of Native background and can readily provide the fact that this is isolated to particular tribal customs. My final note on why particular tribes or groups of people decide to practice homosexuality and/or bisexualism on a cultural level is often due to the arid, hostile, and isolated nature of the environment where a man may go for weeks or months before having contact with the opposite sex, such as the Andes people.

Thank you for the info.

what if people just prefer certain genders? lol

 

[Cosmos]

Well, that's not our argument, my friend. We can readily agree that some men prefer men and some women prefer women. ...Some people prefer animals, too. But I am NOT equating homosexuality with bestiality! Why I say that is only to bring to awareness that choices are something we're all responsible for making for ourselves.

It is up to every individual to become responsible for their own spiritual growth, which often has nothing to do with our physical or emotional desires. This is the paradox in matters of spirituality (and religion) where our inclinations often serve as a cage or veil. What will truly gratify us in our lower nature is our consent to conform to the needs and requirements of the Soul, which nourishes itself from the Spirit of God (i.e. Will of God). As a Gnostic philosopher, you're probably aware of the many early sects, such as the Manicheans, where the monks would masturbate into their hands and eat their own semen. This is another example--outside of slavery--of homosexual spirituality or culture being institutionalized as an escape ladder away from society, which is traditionally represented by feminine symbols and agriculture.

 

[Duck]

Well, that's not our argument, my friend. We can readily agree that some men prefer men and some women prefer women. ...Some people prefer animals, too. But I am NOT equating homosexuality with bestiality!

THEN WHY EVEN BRING IT UP? You should have stopped at some women prefer women. You ******** bigot.

 

[Cosmos]

...Duck... Listen to me. My name is Timothy. I'm not a bigot. Nor am I intolerant.

I know gays, have known gays, including in my own family, and have kissed a man. OH NO! Homosexuals do not scare me or fill me full of rage. This is a battle of semantics and I'm not in it.

 

[Duck]

...Duck... Listen to me. My name is Timothy. I'm not a bigot. Nor am I intolerant.

I know gays, have known gays, including in my own family, and have kissed a man. OH NO! Homosexuals do not scare me or fill me full of rage. This is a battle of semantics and I'm not in it.

When you bring up something that is considered to be abhorrent by most people, religious or not, and conflate that with homosexuality that links the two (the abhorrent behavior and something that is not abhorrent). That tactic is the tactic of the bigot. That tactic and 'argument' against legalization of secular rights is part and parcel of the bigots hiding behind the bible. Don't expect me to accept "oh, but I have gay friends" as an excuse. Do your gay "friends" know that you consider them to be nothing more animal f*ckers? I really bet that they don't do they?

 

[Cosmos]

...I don't believe gays are eloping with animal critters, dude. You've obviously not really read any of my posts. You know I read every single thread from the very, very beginning no matter where I start to ensure I know what I am talking about when commenting to another?

Rather than be angry over an 'excuse'... why not trust that people can know and be around others who do not live as they personally do and not hate them? The tactic of a bigot is to spew curse words at another for daring to turn a cheek and disagree. I've yet to curse you... you have cursed me.

 

[Duck]

...I don't believe gays are eloping with animal critters, dude. You've obviously not really read any of my posts. You know I read every single thread from the very, very beginning no matter where I start to ensure I know what I am talking about when commenting to another?

Rather than be angry over an 'excuse'... why not trust that people can know and be around others who do not live as they personally do and not hate them? The tactic of a bigot is to spew curse words at another for daring to turn a cheek and disagree. I've yet to curse you... you have cursed me.

Perhaps I tire of being conflated with rapists, pedophiles, animal-*******, murderers, and the rest of the 'scum' of society by people purporting to be tolerant and religious?

I will admit that you have not indicated that LGBT people are the equivalent of rapists, pedophiles or murderers as of yet. Frankly, I anticipate that accusation at any moment from anyone claiming to be a follower of the Abrahamic faiths, so perhaps I fire broadsides a little early.

 

[Cosmos]

I apologize for every Baha'i or anyone else professing to worship the One True Invisible Essence and has insulted you thusly. My goal is not to make anyone feel like an animal or scum or a demon. Yes, my opinions may seemingly be hurtful because they are intense, but it is not to cause discord. Know that I am as any other man, for if I said I've never battled with my fleshly desires I'd be a bold-faced lying coward!

:rainbow:

 

[Duck]

I apologize for every Baha'i or anyone else professing to worship the One True Invisible Essence and has insulted you thusly. My goal is not to make anyone feel like an animal or scum or a demon. Yes, my opinions may seemingly be hurtful because they are intense, but it is not to cause discord. Know that I am as any other man, for if I said I've never battled with my fleshly desires I'd be a bold-faced lying coward!

:rainbow:

Thank you. I apologize also.