Is living a gay/lesbian lifestyle a problem with God?

[Mr Cheese]

such as the Manicheans, where the monks would masturbate into their hands and eat their own semen. This is another example--outside of slavery--of homosexual spirituality or culture being institutionalized as an escape ladder away from society, which is traditionally represented by feminine symbols and agriculture.

uh that sounds like anti Gnostic propoganda...of which the vast majority of Gnostic literature IS....

for example one of my fave Gnostic passages is from the Gospel of eve....
again this supposedly by the "witch finders" was proof positive that Gnostics were indeed performing libertine sex acts much like the one you describe:

It is I who am you, and it is you who are me. And wherever you are, I am there. And I am sown in all; and you collect me from wherever you wish. And when you collect me, it is your own self that you collect.
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Yes, the above passage is clearly an indication and an act of incitement to perform libertine sex acts!!!!??????? Sadly this is obvious garbage by the early church fathers that wrote such things....


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[Rainbow Mage]

Doesn't surprise me Mr. Cheese. I bet most of what Cosmos is spouting is anti-gay propaganda. The ancient Egyptians didn't make homosexuality punishable. Yes, I agree with him, they did question rather or not a man taking the bottom position comprimised his masculinity or not, but it was their choice.

 

[Mr Cheese]

I think you'll find what cosmos is actually decrying is ridiculous libertine sexual acts....which sadly homosexuality gets more flack for...

heteros are capable also...

debauchery is debauchery

 

[Cosmos]

Doesn't surprise me Mr. Cheese. I bet most of what Cosmos is spouting is anti-gay propaganda. The ancient Egyptians didn't make homosexuality punishable. Yes, I agree with him, they did question rather or not a man taking the bottom position comprimised his masculinity or not, but it was their choice.

:foot:

I should probably clarify the facts on certain practices of Gnostic sects. Foremost, my description of the corrupt Gnostics was not to say the monastic orders actually participated in sexual acts in the sense of with another person. The example was one of a particular sect, the Manicheans, whose members often would indulge in masturbating into their own palms as somehow a necessary belief in purity. ...I could be wrong, as my fiance, reading through our mythology book, is explaining to me that Manicheanism influenced the Roman Church heavily in monastic philosophies of "universal celibacy" (Laderer) akin to the Buddhist monkhood. I am well-informed in Gnosticism, as I am a former follower of the Mystery Religions until I fully realized the Sun of Reality (i.e. Manifestation of God), so thank you for informing me of propaganda.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

My final note on why particular tribes or groups of people decide to practice homosexuality and/or bisexualism on a cultural level is often due to the arid, hostile, and isolated nature of the environment where a man may go for weeks or months before having contact with the opposite sex, such as the Andes people.

I believe that you have it backwards. It was a minority of cultures that were anti homosexual. The Abrahamic religions (with the exception of the jews). They spread over the earth through violence and aggressive conversations.

You have talked about the acceptance of Homosexual cultures in the East, North and south America, Pre Christian Europe, I will add India and Japan. It seems that the Middle Eastern Bias against Homosexuals is the odd man out.
This is one of the weaknesses of the Abrahamic faiths and you guys need to out grow it. Just like Hindu's need to out grow caste discrimination.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Cosmos has it all backwards. Most societies were bi-sexual prior to the spread of Christianity and Islam. Meaning, the men married and had kids, and also had men on the side.

 

[Cosmos]

I believe that you have it backwards. It was a minority of cultures that were anti homosexual. The Abrahamic religions (with the exception of the jews). They spread over the earth through violence and aggressive conversations.

You have talked about the acceptance of Homosexual cultures in the East, North and south America, Pre Christian Europe, I will add India and Japan. It seems that the Middle Eastern Bias against Homosexuals is the odd man out.
This is one of the weaknesses of the Abrahamic faiths and you guys need to out grow it. Just like Hindu's need to out grow caste discrimination.

Actually, you're apparently not aware that 'Middle Eastern' is a geographic identity and not a cultural one, as it does not reflect the true diversity of the region wherein there has been the same cultural phenomena of homosexuality as mentioned elsewhere across the globe. Though not to talk down to the origins of the Hebrew religion, the spread of Judaism as a 'Middle Eastern' Semitic religion was, in fact, accomplished through large warfare of barbarous tribes who neighbored the Israelites, and anyone who has adequately read the Bible can observe this documented fact. Again, presenting evidences for homosexuality across the planet is no more evidence that it was a universally accepted than is to use the factual statistics that (open) homosexuals make up roughly one-tenth of the world's population makes it common. New Agers who profess the Eastern religions of Hinduism or Buddhism need to grow up out of judgmentally demeaning other's faith simply to bolster a perception that there's a real struggle between Western and Eastern religious philosophies or theologies.

 

[Cosmos]

Cosmos has it all backwards. Most societies were bi-sexual prior to the spread of Christianity and Islam. Meaning, the men married and had kids, and also had men on the side.

In fact, I related this historical fact already. Every society has historically had those of privileged classes who would indulge in hedonism with servants, slaves, and even family members. Also, why males in early societies would sleep with other men in lower castes is simple to understand during periods of war or men whose way of life involved vast amounts of time isolated from human contact. So, this isn't an argument over trivial facts.

 

[Sunstone]

Cosmos has it all backwards. Most societies were bi-sexual prior to the spread of Christianity and Islam. Meaning, the men married and had kids, and also had men on the side.

Source?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Sunstone the Greeks? The Romans? You never heard of pedestry? How the ancient Greeks used to sleep with their underclassmen and pupils? Or about the Japanese monks and shoguns?

 

[Cosmos]

Sunstone the Greeks? The Romans? You never heard of pedestry? How the ancient Greeks used to sleep with their underclassmen and pupils? Or about the Japanese monks and shoguns?

Exactly. Petestry (that's the word you meant to use) is a form of social dominance in early male-dominated societies where the privileged male was privy to sexual interactions with whomever of lower class/caste or consenting party. The word itself is synonomous with "pet" and means "a person especially cherished or indulged; favorite" (n.) and "to fondle" or "caress or to treat as a pet; indulge". So, yes, the Graeco-Romans are a fantastic example of how society degrades when tutors take advantage of their pupils, monks break their vows to commit unwholesome deeds, or when ruling classes abuse their subjects!

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Actually, you're apparently not aware that 'Middle Eastern' is a geographic identity and not a cultural one, as it does not reflect the true diversity of the region wherein there has been the same cultural phenomena of homosexuality as mentioned elsewhere across the globe.

I did not say that there was no diversity of thought. I just said that that this belief system came from the the Abrahamic faiths in the middle east. Then traveled all over the world.

Though not to talk down to the origins of the Hebrew religion, the spread of Judaism as a 'Middle Eastern' Semitic religion was, in fact, accomplished through large warfare of barbarous tribes who neighbored the Israelites, and anyone who has adequately read the Bible can observe this documented fact.

Again this is a straw man argument. The reason I excluded the Jews ( I would also exclude the Bahai) because the Jews did engage in warfare in their area of the middle east they have had no interest in converting others and conquering people out side of Israel. They out grew the Barbaric conquest phase very early.

Again, presenting evidences for homosexuality across the planet is no more evidence that it was a universally accepted than is to use the factual statistics that (open) homosexuals make up roughly one-tenth of the world's population makes it common.

I never said that homosexuals made up a majority in any country. In fact I would say 1 in 10 is even high. What I believe is that most non imapcted culture's believed that Homosexuality is a naturally occurring minority in any society. In some societies it was played out in repressive ways just like heterosexual relationships were repressive toward women. I could use your same arguments to show cultural sexual discrimination of straight people but I wont because that would be absurd.

New Agers who profess the Eastern religions of Hinduism or Buddhism need to grow up out of judgmentally demeaning other's faith simply to bolster a perception that there's a real struggle between Western and Eastern religious philosophies or theologies.

Once more if you read my comments I was very carful not to in any way make my faith seem superior. Remember I brought up the caste system. As if to say we all have our problems.
Also I am not a new ager. I have studied Hinduism for 20 years and lived in a ashram for a while. It is not I who am demeaning any one. I am just responding to your illogical arguments that I see as both bigoted and repressive to an whole category of children of God. You see from my point of view I must say something.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -Edmund Burke

 

[Autodidact]

...Duck... Listen to me. My name is Timothy. I'm not a bigot. Nor am I intolerant.

I know gays, have known gays, including in my own family, and have kissed a man. OH NO! Homosexuals do not scare me or fill me full of rage. This is a battle of semantics and I'm not in it.

Baloney. If you weren't a bigot, you wouldn't be telling hateful lies about another group of people. It's not a battle of semantics, it's a battle of truth vs. bigoted lies.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, that's not our argument, my friend. We can readily agree that some men prefer men and some women prefer women. ...Some people prefer animals, too. But I am NOT equating homosexuality with bestiality! Why I say that is only to bring to awareness that choices are something we're all responsible for making for ourselves.

It is up to every individual to become responsible for their own spiritual growth, which often has nothing to do with our physical or emotional desires. This is the paradox in matters of spirituality (and religion) where our inclinations often serve as a cage or veil. What will truly gratify us in our lower nature is our consent to conform to the needs and requirements of the Soul, which nourishes itself from the Spirit of God (i.e. Will of God). As a Gnostic philosopher, you're probably aware of the many early sects, such as the Manicheans, where the monks would masturbate into their hands and eat their own semen. This is another example--outside of slavery--of homosexual spirituality or culture being institutionalized as an escape ladder away from society, which is traditionally represented by feminine symbols and agriculture.

No, it's not. Masturbating monks is yet another phenomenon which, if true, has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. Kind of like eunuchs.

 

[Autodidact]

...I don't believe gays are eloping with animal critters, dude. You've obviously not really read any of my posts. You know I read every single thread from the very, very beginning no matter where I start to ensure I know what I am talking about when commenting to another?

Rather than be angry over an 'excuse'... why not trust that people can know and be around others who do not live as they personally do and not hate them? The tactic of a bigot is to spew curse words at another for daring to turn a cheek and disagree. I've yet to curse you... you have cursed me.

No, the tactic of a bigot is to spread cruel lies about entire groups of people, as you have been doing in this thread.

 

[Autodidact]

I apologize for every Baha'i or anyone else professing to worship the One True Invisible Essence and has insulted you thusly. My goal is not to make anyone feel like an animal or scum or a demon. Yes, my opinions may seemingly be hurtful because they are intense, but it is not to cause discord. Know that I am as any other man, for if I said I've never battled with my fleshly desires I'd be a bold-faced lying coward!

:rainbow:

No, intensity has nothing to do with it. They are hurtful, because they're reprehensible slander. Homosexuality has no more to do with slavery (or eunuchs or masturbation) than does heterosexuality, probably less so. Homosexuality has no connection with whether civilizations succeed or fail. And if the show fits, wear it.

 

[Autodidact]

:foot:

I should probably clarify the facts on certain practices of Gnostic sects. Foremost, my description of the corrupt Gnostics was not to say the monastic orders actually participated in sexual acts in the sense of with another person. The example was one of a particular sect, the Manicheans, whose members often would indulge in masturbating into their own palms as somehow a necessary belief in purity. ...I could be wrong, as my fiance, reading through our mythology book, is explaining to me that Manicheanism influenced the Roman Church heavily in monastic philosophies of "universal celibacy" (Laderer) akin to the Buddhist monkhood. I am well-informed in Gnosticism, as I am a former follower of the Mystery Religions until I fully realized the Sun of Reality (i.e. Manifestation of God), so thank you for informing me of propaganda.

Why bother, since it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD?

 

[Autodidact]

In fact, I related this historical fact already. Every society has historically had those of privileged classes who would indulge in hedonism with servants, slaves, and even family members. Also, why males in early societies would sleep with other men in lower castes is simple to understand during periods of war or men whose way of life involved vast amounts of time isolated from human contact. So, this isn't an argument over trivial facts.

Men of privilege have had sex with whatever women they can exploit since the dawn of time. You haven't told us anything true about homosexuality yet.

 

[Autodidact]

Exactly. Petestry (that's the word you meant to use) is a form of social dominance in early male-dominated societies where the privileged male was privy to sexual interactions with whomever of lower class/caste or consenting party. The word itself is synonomous with "pet" and means "a person especially cherished or indulged; favorite" (n.) and "to fondle" or "caress or to treat as a pet; indulge". So, yes, the Graeco-Romans are a fantastic example of how society degrades when tutors take advantage of their pupils, monks break their vows to commit unwholesome deeds, or when ruling classes abuse their subjects!

Tell me again why you have no interest in women?
Hierarchical societies exploit less powerful members. The ones doing the exploiting are almost always men. The most common form of sexual exploitation is heterosexuality. I'd appreciate it if you stopped slandering gay people who's lives have nothing to do with whatever you're talking about, let alone eunuchs and manichean monks.

 

[Cosmos]

I see it has taken you quite a while to calm yourself.

Hopefully, everyone has gotten all the yelling out of their systems and we can go on without any negative feelings towards one another.

I don't hate anyone.

To Yogi, I really do understand why you felt the need to say something, but you need not defend anyone from me as I am no one's enemy or attacker. If I used strong language out of annoyance, I apologize, as I did not mean to belittle your religious practice--please forgive me. My goal is to have constructive dialogue with educated, intelligent people not to parade my own beliefs, but to learn from other's opinions.

Allah'u'Abha' ("God is All-Glorious")