Is MAGA-ism a Religion?

[ratiocinator]

It is not there because what you were told were Christian doctrines that are not supported by the Bible.

It goes beyond that, because if it had another overall message, it would have at least made sense on its own terms. But no.

 

[ratiocinator]

I started to type an answer when I came to the conclusion that I’m not quite sure what you want me to explain.

I want you to explain your own statement that "One can use their reason to understand and conclude that faith is a higher power than just reason." (#159). That suggests to me that there is some logic, that can take one to the conclusion "faith is a higher power", presumably starting from some set of premises or observations.

You also need to make clear what you actually mean by "higher power". I actually agreed (#147) in a way, in the sense of a greater influence on (some) people, but I don't regard that as a good thing, so I assume you mean in some more positive way.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When Hurricane Mitch had ravaged Honduras, we had a mission group go to help. Food was extremely scarce. Some places we reached by having a helicopter drop food to unreached areas. We were at a location where we had two feeding stations with a vitamin fortified meal - looked like cream of wheat - that we had brought in.

The lines were non-stop until they realized the need was greater than the food. The director of the ministry, Tom Shaw, was so utterly broken by that reality that he left the immediate area to pray and cry. Compassion had reached his bowels and every time that type of compassion is reached, faith takes over because faith works through love.

Our youth who were serving were mesmerized when they kept serving and kept serving and kept serving until the lines were finished. They knew they were seeing a multiplication of food.

Okay so it sounds like you're equating "faith" with "hope." As in, having faith gets you through tough times? Hey if that's it, then have at it. If it helps, it helps.

You know what I would have done in this situation instead of praying? I would have gone off in search of more food.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good

Good? You disagreed with my definition earlier.

That could be an application of faith. Could be misguided faith.

Which is the point. There's no way to tell the difference between "misguided faith" and "real faith."
So faith is not a pathway to truth, because anything can be (and is) believed on faith.

This is where we maybe differ. Truth and reality produces faith in my camp. Not the other way around.

What does that mean?

ok


As I said before, there there are many definitions.

Yes. We're talking about religious faith right now. I gave you my definition already.

I think it does implement faith.

There's no faith involved, in my opinion. We live in a regulated society in which there are legal requirements for employers to pay their employees, and along with that comes legal recourse when that commitment is not met by the employer. That's but one of the pieces of evidence I can use to determine that I'm likely to be paid for my work. Plus my many years of experience working. There are further pieces of evidence I can collect to help me determine whether or not I'll be paid. I can call up past employees, I can read up on an employer's company history, I can inspect the company's books, I can check if there are outstanding lawsuits against the company, etc.

Bringing this back to the religious faith we're talking about here, how do we determine if people are using "misguided faith" or "proper faith?"

You have “faith” that they will pay you even though you don’t have evidence of their financial statements or the balance of their checkbook. Why isn’t that “faith” as defined in Heb 11:1 that I gave?

Yes, already explained why in my last post, and again, above.

I disagree.

Disagree if you like but it happened. We've had this conversation before. Sorry you don't remember.

You are adding things that aren’t there in a normal circumstance.

Such as .... ?

D.
Are you saying that people don’t use faith when they say they will be paid for their work?

Yep.

When we purchased airline tickets from Eastern airlines to go to Honduras and back, we had faith they would do that. We got to Honduras and three days later they closed shop and we were stranded. Misplaced faith but faith none-the-less

I don't see that as faith at all.

You do use faith to get paid for your work. I don’t know why you are arguing the point.

Nope, I don't. Before I start a job, I make sure the company is going to pay me. But even if they don't, I have legal recourse. So I don't need any faith.

 

[Kenny]

I want you to explain your own statement that "One can use their reason to understand and conclude that faith is a higher power than just reason." (#159). That suggests to me that there is some logic, that can take one to the conclusion "faith is a higher power", presumably starting from some set of premises or observations.

You also need to make clear what you actually mean by "higher power". I actually agreed (#147) in a way, in the sense of a greater influence on (some) people, but I don't regard that as a good thing, so I assume you mean in some more positive way.

The strength and power of our body is our muscle strength. It has an authority and power.

The strength and power of our brain is our reason, intellect and will power. It has a higher power and authority over our muscles and body. Like meditation to control pain, or a karate man who mentally prepares himself to cause the body to brake bricks or even Indian men who eat glass.

The strength of the spirit is faith. It has a higher power to rule over mind and body. It can create miracles for the body and peace for the mind

 

[Soandso]

or even Indian men who eat glass

Well, this explains why Indian food sometimes gives me such severe indigestion

 

[ratiocinator]

The strength of the spirit is faith. It has a higher power to rule over mind and body. It can create miracles for the body and peace for the mind

An assertion isn't reasoning, any more than an anecdote is.

 

[Kenny]

Okay so it sounds like you're equating "faith" with "hope." As in, having faith gets you through tough times? Hey if that's it, then have at it. If it helps, it helps.

Not really - but they do work together.

Hope is the expectation that something is about to happen - like the expectation of a Christmas gift on December 25th type of hope. Faith brings it into manifestation - it is what gives it substance.

Heb 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

You know what I would have done in this situation instead of praying? I would have gone off in search of more food.

yes… that is what we reason to do - and it is “reason"able to do so. However, if you were there, you would have found out that was an impossibility.

hurricane mitch honduras at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Whole towns were swallowed by mudslides, agriculture was gone, mountains opened up with gushes of water and new rivers were formed.. Airport was closed until waters subsided from the flood that went above the airport’s first floor (higher than a regular floor) . Cows drowned, food was scarce and the need was beyond capacity to “Go out and get more food”.

 

[Kenny]

Good? You disagreed with my definition earlier.

Good that we agreed. I don’t want to argue for arguments sake. I believe I gave you “faith is like setting goals” and you agreed. I agree with your agreement.

Which is the point. There's no way to tell the difference between "misguided faith" and "real faith."
So faith is not a pathway to truth, because anything can be (and is) believed on faith.

I don’t find it difficult.

What does that mean?

you said that faith is needed to find truth. I find that truth produces faith. As an example… if you are interacting with a person on a continual basis and you find that everything he said for you to do works and produces results, it produces a faith that the next time he says something, you can trust it. You may be skeptic at the beginning, but the more truth he gives, it increases your trust (faith) that you can rely on him.

Yes. We're talking about religious faith right now. I gave you my definition already.

Obviously, as a Christian, we will have differences in ultimate definition intersecting at some point but not in others. Yes, I am talking about Christian faith.

There's no faith involved, in my opinion. We live in a regulated society in which there are legal requirements for employers to pay their employees, and along with that comes legal recourse when that commitment is not met by the employer. That's but one of the pieces of evidence I can use to determine that I'm likely to be paid for my work. Plus my many years of experience working. There are further pieces of evidence I can collect to help me determine whether or not I'll be paid. I can call up past employees, I can read up on an employer's company history, I can inspect the company's books, I can check if there are outstanding lawsuits against the company, etc.

I am just trying to share a physical and natural example as a point of reference to try to connect what I am trying to relate to you.

Bringing this back to the religious faith we're talking about here, how do we determine if people are using "misguided faith" or "proper faith?"

Obviously, my perspective is within the Christian scope of belief. Real faith has no fear and no doubts and is based on we believe is the truth of God’s word. Mental assent agrees with what is said but contains fear and doubt even if it is the truth of God’s word. Anything outside of God’s word is misguided faith.

Yes, already explained why in my last post, and again, above.

OK - my answer is also above.

Disagree if you like but it happened. We've had this conversation before. Sorry you don't remember.

No need to get testy. - I still disagree.

Such as .... ?

" if, on the first day on the job, the boss mentions that they're in massive debt and haven't been able to pay anyone as of late, I probably would just go home.”.

If the boss hasn’t been able to pay anyone as of late, he wouldn’t hire you. And if he did hire you, he wouldn’t tell you that he hasn’t paid anyone as of late

Yep.

I don't see that as faith at all.

Ok… we agree to disagree. But there is a saying in the business world about working “In good faith”.

How to Negotiate in Good Faith

To negotiate in good faith, parties must desire to reach agreement and commit to meeting deal terms. Here’s how to identify “false negotiators”

www.pon.harvard.edu

You can disagree but it doesn’t change reality.

Nope, I don't. Before I start a job, I make sure the company is going to pay me. But even if they don't, I have legal recourse. So I don't need any faith.

Great… and congrats. You are above the average.

 

[Kenny]

An assertion isn't reasoning, any more than an anecdote is.

IMV - your assertion doesn’t make it true?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not really - but they do work together.

Hope is the expectation that something is about to happen - like the expectation of a Christmas gift on December 25th type of hope. Faith brings it into manifestation - it is what gives it substance.

Okay, so in your scenario, you were describing the hope that you had that you wouldn't run out of food. And you think praying that you wouldn't run out of food was the reason you didn't run out of food? It couldn't just have been that you had enough food?

Heb 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for.

So faith is hope.

yes… that is what we reason to do - and it is “reason"able to do so. However, if you were there, you would have found out that was an impossibility.

hurricane mitch honduras at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Whole towns were swallowed by mudslides, agriculture was gone, mountains opened up with gushes of water and new rivers were formed.. Airport was closed until waters subsided from the flood that went above the airport’s first floor (higher than a regular floor) . Cows drowned, food was scarce and the need was beyond capacity to “Go out and get more food”.

And yet I would have tried anyway. Because praying to me is a waste of time. I'd rather take action and do something.
Praying may make you feel better, but it doesn't get things done. Doing things, gets things done.

Probably someone would have claimed it was an impossibility to have even gotten in there in the first place in order to serve food to all of those people. And yet peoples' actions made that happen. Everybody didn't just sit around and pray for food to show up, right? You all actually made it happen by your physical actions.

 

[Kenny]

And yet I would have tried anyway. Because praying to me is a waste of time. I'd rather take action and do something.
Praying may make you feel better, but it doesn't get things done. Doing things, gets things done.

Which I am OK with. Anyone can live with what they can do on their own capacity and I’m OK with that. I just prefer the icing of seeing God do what I couldn’t.

So we simply have two different versions of faith in which what you believe faith encompasses can intersect with a portion of mine. You have one wey of living that makes you feel better and I have mine.

And we both can help our neighbor within the scope of our individual faith.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good that we agreed. I don’t want to argue for arguments sake. I believe I gave you “faith is like setting goals” and you agreed. I agree with your agreement.

I didn't agree to that. I gave you my definition of faith.

I don’t find it difficult.

It appears you do, since you're unable to articulate the difference and point out how the rest of us can figure out the difference.

you said that faith is needed to find truth.

I said faith is not a pathway to truth because anything can be believed on faith.

I find that truth produces faith.

That doesn't make any sense to me.

As an example… if you are interacting with a person on a continual basis and you find that everything he said for you to do works and produces results, it produces a faith that the next time he says something, you can trust it. You may be skeptic at the beginning, but the more truth he gives, it increases your trust (faith) that you can rely on him.

That's called evidence.

Now you seem to be equivocating "faith" with "trust" when just a moment ago you were equivocating it to 'hope."
I don't agree that "trust" is the equivalent of religious "faith." I think I've pointed out why.

Obviously, as a Christian, we will have differences in ultimate definition intersecting at some point but not in others. Yes, I am talking about Christian faith.

Which isn't really distinguishable from any other religious faith, as far as I can tell. You've not given me any reason to think "Christian faith" is any more or less useful than the faith of any other religion. Which again presents the problem I keep pointing out about how faith doesn't lead us down a pathway to truth, and all kinds of people believe all kinds of false and true things based on faith.

I am just trying to share a physical and natural example as a point of reference to try to connect what I am trying to relate to you.

And I responded. Do you have anything to say about my response?

Obviously, my perspective is within the Christian scope of belief. Real faith has no fear and no doubts and is based on we believe is the truth of God’s word. Mental assent agrees with what is said but contains fear and doubt even if it is the truth of God’s word. Anything outside of God’s word is misguided faith.

Which God's word? And who's interpretation? How did you determine that?
See the problem yet?

OK - my answer is also above.


No need to get testy. - I still disagree.



" if, on the first day on the job, the boss mentions that they're in massive debt and haven't been able to pay anyone as of late, I probably would just go home.”.

If the boss hasn’t been able to pay anyone as of late, he wouldn’t hire you. And if he did hire you, he wouldn’t tell you that he hasn’t paid anyone as of late

Who knows? It's a completely made up situation. We can say anything.

My point is that I don't just jump into a new job blind, without any idea if I'll ever get paid or not. That's just not how society works. There are pieces of evidence that one can collect to help ascertain whether or not one will be paid, and even if they aren't paid there are regulations in place in our society that we can use to correct the problem if we aren't paid.

For instance, I was once considering working for someone for whom I'd heard through the grapevine, had not paid their employees in a timely manner. So I investigated. I asked past employees. I looked up the company online and read some reviews. I asked to see pay stubs, among other things. Turns out he did pay his employees in a timely manner after all and it was all just a rumour. Anyway, the point is I collected evidence that would help me make a decision. I didn't just cross my fingers and hope for the best. I took action.

Ok… we agree to disagree. But there is a saying in the business world about working “In good faith”.

How to Negotiate in Good Faith

To negotiate in good faith, parties must desire to reach agreement and commit to meeting deal terms. Here’s how to identify “false negotiators”

www.pon.harvard.edu

You can disagree but it doesn’t change reality.

And yet we have rules, laws, by-laws, etc. to regulate the business world. We're not all just crossing our fingers and hoping for the best. And there is legal recourse available to us if people don't behave as they are supposed to.

Great… and congrats. You are above the average.

I don't think I am at all.

 

[ratiocinator]

IMV - your assertion doesn’t make it true?

Eh? Are you seriously going to say that an assertion is reasoning?

In that case I could just assert that faith is evil and your God is the devil, and you'd have to accept it as reasoning.........

 

[Kenny]

I didn't agree to that. I gave you my definition of faith.

Yes… and we determined that your definition is different from mine.

It appears you do, since you're unable to articulate the difference and point out how the rest of us can figure out the difference.

IMV - the explanation is pretty clear in as much as I understood without difficulty when it was shared with me. Maybe you need to ask better questions?

I said faith is not a pathway to truth because anything can be believed on faith.

And I said that truth is what produces faith.

That doesn't make any sense to me.

I explained it pretty simple. with a great example which came after the statement.

That's called evidence.

Now you seem to be equivocating "faith" with "trust" when just a moment ago you were equivocating it to 'hope."

No… please read again.

I don't agree that "trust" is the equivalent of religious "faith." I think I've pointed out why.

OK… we have a different belief system in as much as I pointed out how it is trust.

Which isn't really distinguishable from any other religious faith, as far as I can tell. You've not given me any reason to think "Christian faith" is any more or less useful than the faith of any other religion. Which again presents the problem I keep pointing out about how faith doesn't lead us down a pathway to truth, and all kinds of people believe all kinds of false and true things based on faith.

As I said… this is in context of my faith and not others. Maybe you should ask the other people of different religions?

And I responded. Do you have anything to say about my response?

I think I have responded (as I am here) item for item.

Which God's word? And who's interpretation? How did you determine that?
See the problem yet?

Overall, those of the Christian faith don’t differ on the subject of faith unless you can be more specific.

Who knows? It's a completely made up situation. We can say anything.

My point is that I don't just jump into a new job blind, without any idea if I'll ever get paid or not. That's just not how society works. There are pieces of evidence that one can collect to help ascertain whether or not one will be paid, and even if they aren't paid there are regulations in place in our society that we can use to correct the problem if we aren't paid.

For instance, I was once considering working for someone for whom I'd heard through the grapevine, had not paid their employees in a timely manner. So I investigated. I asked past employees. I looked up the company online and read some reviews. I asked to see pay stubs, among other things. Turns out he did pay his employees in a timely manner after all and it was all just a rumour. Anyway, the point is I collected evidence that would help me make a decision. I didn't just cross my fingers and hope for the best. I took action.

And yet we have rules, laws, by-laws, etc. to regulate the business world. We're not all just crossing our fingers and hoping for the best. And there is legal recourse available to us if people don't behave as they are supposed to.

I don't think I am at all.

OK… I think we have gone round with this one enough… Now, imv, we are arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes… and we determined that your definition is different from mine.

You claimed it was. And yet every time you post an example of what you think faith is, it matches up with the definition I gave.
Just look over my last response to you for evidence of that.

IMV - the explanation is pretty clear in as much as I understood without difficulty when it was shared with me. Maybe you need to ask better questions?

Nah, you need to actually answer them. And explain yourself better.

I've been pretty clear here: How do we tell the difference between "real" faith and "misguided" faith?

And I said that truth is what produces faith.

Which doesn't make sense to me. and you've not elaborated upon.

I explained it pretty simple. with a great example which came after the statement.

You gave an example of somebody being hopeful.

No… please read again.

I did. You're doing what I said.

OK… we have a different belief system in as much as I pointed out how it is trust.

This was in response to, "I don't agree that "trust" is the equivalent of religious "faith." I think I've pointed out why."

Since you didn't have any argument against my explanation, I'll have to assume you agree with me.

As I said… this is in context of my faith and not others. Maybe you should ask the other people of different religions?

This was in response to, "Which isn't really distinguishable from any other religious faith, as far as I can tell. You've not given me any reason to think "Christian faith" is any more or less useful than the faith of any other religion. Which again presents the problem I keep pointing out about how faith doesn't lead us down a pathway to truth, and all kinds of people believe all kinds of false and true things based on faith."

Why would I ask someone from another faith about your your view on distinguishing "real" faith from "misguided" faith?

I think I have responded (as I am here) item for item.

So ... no.

Overall, those of the Christian faith don’t differ on the subject of faith unless you can be more specific.

They do, in fact.

But this doesn't answer my questions:
Which God's word? And who's interpretation? How did you determine that?
See the problem yet?

How is your faith different from the faith of someone from some other religion and how do you know yours is the "correct" one?

OK… I think we have gone round with this one enough… Now, imv, we are arguing for the sake of arguing.

I mean, this is a debate forum. That's what we're here for.

Again, I'll have to assume you that your lack of refutation to what I said means that you don't have one and my point has been made that faith is not required in that situation.

 

[Kenny]

You claimed it was. And yet every time you post an example of what you think faith is, it matches up with the definition I gave.
Just look over my last response to you for evidence of that.

We both had determined that our definition was different even in the position that you said faith is needed to get truth and I said you need truth to get faith.

I also said there are places where we intersect.

Nah, you need to actually answer them. And explain yourself better.

LOL…

I've been pretty clear here: How do we tell the difference between "real" faith and "misguided" faith?

I believe my answer was pretty clear.

Which doesn't make sense to me. and you've not elaborated upon.

Let me say it differently…

1) We can’t even agree with what faith is
2) Faith is the substance (or gives substance) to the things hoped for. Faith is not hope but you say it is the same - faith is the title deed - not the hope. Faith manifests the hope - Hope is the stepping stone.

If we can’t agree with what I am saying… then of course it doesn’t make sense. Maybe if you asked better questions?

You gave an example of somebody being hopeful.

I did. You're doing what I said.

This was in response to, "I don't agree that "trust" is the equivalent of religious "faith." I think I've pointed out why."

And I believe that I explained that it was. Now, if you don’t agree then we have to agree to disagree.

Since you didn't have any argument against my explanation, I'll have to assume you agree with me.

No… I have given plenty of arguments which you basically haven’t refuted. You have given your viewpoints but it didn’t refute mine.

This was in response to, "Which isn't really distinguishable from any other religious faith, as far as I can tell. You've not given me any reason to think "Christian faith" is any more or less useful than the faith of any other religion. Which again presents the problem I keep pointing out about how faith doesn't lead us down a pathway to truth, and all kinds of people believe all kinds of false and true things based on faith."

So you have to figure out which one is has truth or if all don’t have truth and live your life according to your truth and build your faith on it. If it is true… it will stand. If it isn’t, it will crumble.

But this doesn't answer my questions:

Which God's word?

The 66 books of the Bible

And who's interpretation?
How did you determine that?

This isn’t “don’t engage your brain and reason” - You look at the interpretations and use your brain to decide which one is correct.

See the problem yet?

nope.

a) How is your faith different from the faith of someone from some other religion b) and how do you know yours is the "correct" one?

a) We don’t all say the same thing or believe the same things. Very different. b) Because of what is said and the veracity of what is said.

I mean, this is a debate forum. That's what we're here for.

OK… I thought that was what we were doing.

Again, I'll have to assume you that your lack of refutation to what I said means that you don't have one and my point has been made that faith is not required in that situation.

Actually, that is purely an assumption on your point.

 

[SkepticThinker]

We both had determined that our definition was different even in the position that you said faith is needed to get truth and I said you need truth to get faith.

I also said there are places where we intersect.

You've demonstrated with your words and examples that my definition is accurate.

LOL…



I believe my answer was pretty clear.

If your answer was clear, I'd know how to distinguish between "real" faith and "misguided" faith.
I still don't. You've not explained how.

Let me say it differently…

1) We can’t even agree with what faith is

We do agree, actually. Our definitions overlap, as I keep pointing out when it happens. You just don't seem to want to admit that my definition is accurate, despite your repeated demonstration that it is.

2) Faith is the substance (or gives substance) to the things hoped for. Faith is not hope but you say it is the same - faith is the title deed - not the hope. Faith manifests the hope - Hope is the stepping stone.

In your examples, faith acts as hope, and it acts as trust. You've equated faith with both of those things. That's how you've described it here.

If we can’t agree with what I am saying… then of course it doesn’t make sense. Maybe if you asked better questions?

Maybe if you'd actually answer the questions posed to you.

And I believe that I explained that it was. Now, if you don’t agree then we have to agree to disagree.

Your example was a demonstration of a person having hope.

No… I have given plenty of arguments which you basically haven’t refuted. You have given your viewpoints but it didn’t refute mine.

I've refuted every one of them. Your comebacks often don't address them at al, as I've noted here. Seriously, scroll back and take a look.

So you have to figure out which one is has truth or if all don’t have truth and live your life according to your truth and build your faith on it. If it is true… it will stand. If it isn’t, it will crumble.

You've helped demonstrate that faith is not a pathway to truth, because anything can be believed on faith. You've not shown how to distinguish between "real" faith and "misguided" faith, though you've asserted both exist. If there is no way to distinguish between the two, then faith is useless to us, as a means of discovering truth.

The 66 books of the Bible

How did you determine that the Bible is God's word and not some other holy book(s)?
How did you determine you've got the "right" faith and not some kind of "misguided" faith?
How can any of the rest of us tell the difference?

This isn’t “don’t engage your brain and reason” - You look at the interpretations and use your brain to decide which one is correct.

This was in response to, "And who's interpretation?
How did you determine that?"

This is not a response that addresses my questions. HOW do you determine "which one is correct?" Do you use faith, or do you collect evidence?

nope.

Yes, I know. That's the problem here. It might be easier to figure out if you'd answer my questions.

a) We don’t all say the same thing or believe the same things. Very different. b) Because of what is said and the veracity of what is said.

This was in response to, "How is your faith different from the faith of someone from some other religion b) and how do you know yours is the "correct" one?"

I see nothing here that indicates to me how to determine which one is the correct one.

OK… I thought that was what we were doing.

We are. You said it as though it's a bad thing.

Actually, that is purely an assumption on your point.

Then you should have refuted it. Since you didn't, I'm sticking with my conclusion.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Faith, to me, is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have good evidence for it. Otherwise, they'd just give the evidence. So, to me, faith is not a pathway to any sort of truth, because anything can be believed on faith. You're saying that with faith impossible things become possible. Which to me, sounds exactly like my definition of what faith is - believing in things without evidence.

There is a scripture that states, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13). Well, I genuinely believed in God and sought him with all my heart for forty years, but I never found him. I did, however, find disappointment, sadness, fear, confusion, and a constant feeling of hopelessness during the years I believed in God and was a devout Christian. I'm elated to say that I'm now free of what I consider to be the entrapment of my Christian faith. So I have no doubt that I am considerably better off in my life now that I have let go of the belief, faith, and false hope I had in God. I often refer to this as "removing the rose-colored glasses," and I believe this is what helped me better understand the Bible while I was deconverting from Christianity. It was a genuine reexamination of my beliefs, which eventually led me to renounce my belief and faith in God and abandon my Christian faith.

My deconversion slowly began as I was training to be a street preacher and an evangelism team leader. However, my questions and doubts about God, Jesus, and the Bible became even more substantial while I was assisting my nephew in obtaining his Master of Theological Studies degree in order to become an ordained minister. In fact, our comprehensive reading and studying of the Bible and Christian theology finally led to our deconversion. We genuinely believed that reading and studying the Bible on a daily basis would deepen our Christian faith, yet our thorough reading and study of the Bible gradually caused us to no longer believe in God, Jesus, and the Bible. We essentially studied our way out of our Christian beliefs, which I think is ironic.

It was very difficult for me to forsake my Christian faith and let go of my belief in God. It was a matter of being completely honest with myself. I found the courage within myself to face my reality and let go of my Christian beliefs. I eventually learned how to care for myself and my family without feeling the need to rely on my faith in God. I realized that my faith in God was nothing more than false hope and an emotional crutch. I understood that if I was ever going to heal emotionally and change my life for the better, I needed to let go of this detrimental crutch that was ruining my life. I had to let go of it all. It was a liberating experience that has profoundly changed my life. I wish I had done this years ago instead of holding onto the false hope I had in God.

 

[Kenny]

You've demonstrated with your words and examples that my definition is accurate.

Yes… where we intersected, we agreed.

If your answer was clear, I'd know how to distinguish between "real" faith and "misguided" faith.
I still don't. You've not explained how.

That would vary person to person. For Christians, the word of God is the beginning point as we believe that Jesus was the way, the truth and the life.

How do you decide if faith is misguided?

We do agree, actually. Our definitions overlap, as I keep pointing out when it happens. You just don't seem to want to admit that my definition is accurate, despite your repeated demonstration that it is.

I’m not sure if we have a communication gap. I keep repeating that, when it happens, we do agree. You basically said that when you say “overlap” - not equal but they do overlap.

Are you just wanting to argue for arguments sake?

In your examples, faith acts as hope, and it acts as trust. You've equated faith with both of those things. That's how you've described it here.

I’ve already pointed out that you are incorrect on that interpretation. Why?

Maybe if you'd actually answer the questions posed to you.

You will have to enumerate which ones I didn’t answer.

Your example was a demonstration of a person having hope.

I've refuted every one of them. Your comebacks often don't address them at al, as I've noted here. Seriously, scroll back and take a look.

I disagree. You gave a different viewpoint but didn’t refute mine.

You've helped demonstrate that faith is not a pathway to truth, because anything can be believed on faith.

How so? I am pretty sure I said “Truth is the pathway to faith”. Would you like me to find my quote?

You've not shown how to distinguish between "real" faith and "misguided" faith, though you've asserted both exist. If there is no way to distinguish between the two, then faith is useless to us, as a means of discovering truth.

That is answered above here.

How did you determine that the Bible is God's word and not some other holy book(s)?.

It’s prophetic accuracy. It’s message. It’s composition.

How did you determine you've got the "right" faith and not some kind of "misguided" faith?

It’s prophetic accuracy, It’s message. It’s composition. Not to mention that when i have accepted the truth therein, built my faith on that truth — I received the manifestations thereof.

How can any of the rest of us tell the difference?

That is a progression that each person has to travel. You will have to review all the different religions and decide whether they are all hogwash or one is the truth. Obviously you can also decide to put faith in humanity’s capacity… or your capacity.

This was in response to, "And who's interpretation?
How did you determine that?"

This is not a response that addresses my questions. HOW do you determine "which one is correct?" Do you use faith, or do you collect evidence?

I answered the question correctly. We aren’t robots, we have minds of our own as I do in my own journey. It is up to the individual to decide which “interpretation” is correct.

That being said, there are no real variations of interpretations on the foundational truth that Jesus came, died on the cross for our sins, resurrected from the dead, is seated at the right hand of the Father and is coming again.

Yes, I know. That's the problem here. It might be easier to figure out if you'd answer my questions.

Which I do.

This was in response to, "How is your faith different from the faith of someone from some other religion b) and how do you know yours is the "correct" one?"

I see nothing here that indicates to me how to determine which one is the correct one.

Answered in above statements.

We are. You said it as though it's a bad thing.

That is more of a “what you interpreted in what you read isn’t what I meant” type of a situation.

Then you should have refuted it. Since you didn't, I'm sticking with my conclusion.

It’s a free country.