Is MAGA-ism a Religion?

[Kenny]

Go ahead then, let's see the actual reasoning.......

You want an example?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You cherry picked and inserted your thinking. As usual, you resort to insults.

But to answer your question:


reasoned; reasoning ˈrēz-niŋ
ˈrē-zᵊn-iŋ
intransitive verb
1
: to use the faculty of reason so as to arrive at conclusions

One can use their reason to understand and conclude that faith is a higher power than just reason. Understanding that reality or truth, reasoning, when pushed to its limits, will help you achieve the faith where simple reasoning would say to be impossible. As I said, you don’t throw out reasoning, you use it achieve faith. Once you are in faith, you can’t stay in the simple reasoning of “impossibilities”.

There is not a single insult in my post. If you think there is, point out exactly where you think it is. Not this brush off nonsense.
YOU have repeatedly questioned my integrity and honesty.
Stop projecting at me.


Faith, to me, is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have good evidence for it. Otherwise, they'd just give the evidence. So, to me, faith is not a pathway to any sort of truth, because anything can be believed on faith. You're saying that with faith impossible things become possible. Which to me, sounds exactly like my definition of what faith is - believing in things without evidence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You want an example?

We want the reasoning involved.

 

[ratiocinator]

You want an example?

We want the reasoning involved.

^^ Exactly.

 

[Kenny]

Faith, to me, is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have good evidence for it. Otherwise, they'd just give the evidence. So, to me, faith is not a pathway to any sort of truth, because anything can be believed on faith. You're saying that with faith impossible things become possible. Which to me, sounds exactly like my definition of what faith is - believing in things without evidence.

So that is your definition. I’m sure there are many definitions.

Obviously I am looking at this in a biblical sense. TLB says it this way:

“What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead.” Heb 11:1

In a simple sense, goals are statements of faith.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So that is your definition. I’m sure there are many definitions.

Obviously I am looking at this in a biblical sense. TLB says it this way:

“What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead.” Heb 11:1

In a simple sense, goals are statements of faith.

Sounds like it matches up nicely with my definition.

 

[ratiocinator]

“What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead.” Heb 11:1

In a simple sense, goals are statements of faith.

No. Having certainty about something you hope for is absurdly irrational. I can hope that I win the lottery, but if I decide that it's certain to happen, I'd be deluded.

 

[Kenny]

^^ Exactly.

When Hurricane Mitch had ravaged Honduras, we had a mission group go to help. Food was extremely scarce. Some places we reached by having a helicopter drop food to unreached areas. We were at a location where we had two feeding stations with a vitamin fortified meal - looked like cream of wheat - that we had brought in.

The lines were non-stop until they realized the need was greater than the food. The director of the ministry, Tom Shaw, was so utterly broken by that reality that he left the immediate area to pray and cry. Compassion had reached his bowels and every time that type of compassion is reached, faith takes over because faith works through love.

Our youth who were serving were mesmerized when they kept serving and kept serving and kept serving until the lines were finished. They knew they were seeing a multiplication of food.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. Having certainty about something you hope for is absurdly irrational. I can hope that I win the lottery, but if I decide that it's certain to happen, I'd be deluded.

Yes. Having certainty about something you hope for when it is hopeless is absurdly irrational.
Case in point: Christians waiting for Jesus to return to earth.

 

[Kenny]

Sounds like it matches up nicely with my definition.

Close but it can go further - I gave a simplest example for understanding.

Faith, to me, is the excuse people give for believing something when they don't have good evidence for it.

yes… some people can have foolish and presumptuous faith.

Otherwise, they'd just give the evidence. So, to me, faith is not a pathway to any sort of truth, because anything can be believed on faith.

Not sure where “pathway to truth” applies.

You're saying that with faith impossible things become possible.

Yes.. that would be true too.

Which to me, sounds exactly like my definition of what faith is - believing in things without evidence.

Lost me here.

If you just got a job and they said they would pay you once a month, what evidence do you have that they will pay you at the end of the month? Or do you exercise faith on the veracity of what they said they would do?

 

[Trailblazer]

The first time I read the bible, cover to cover, it was the beginning of the end of my faith, because what I'd been told, just didn't match what I read.

But let's say that you were never told anything and you just read the Bible for the very first time.
Would you have faith in it? Would you believe it was true?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Close but it can go further - I gave a simplest example for understanding.

The definition you gave was in very close alignment with mine.

yes… some people can have foolish and presumptuous faith.

Right. So faith doesn't lead you down a pathway to truth. It can lead anywhere. Because it's something that is believed without evidence.

Not sure where “pathway to truth” applies.

What good is it if it doesn't lead you down the pathway to discovering truth and reality?

Yes.. that would be true too.

Which again, aligns with the definition I gave.

Lost me here.

Your definition matches with the one I gave.

If you just got a job and they said they would pay you once a month, what evidence do you have that they will pay you at the end of the month? Or do you exercise faith on the veracity of what they said they would do?

This isn't the faith we're talking about at all.

You've already tried this false equivalency on me before. I don't have faith that I will get paid. That's just how commerce works. You get a job, you get paid for it. I'm not hoping to be paid when there is no evidence that I will be. For instance, if, on the first day on the job, the boss mentions that they're in massive debt and haven't been able to pay anyone as of late, I probably would just go home. I don't expect to be paid in such a situation. There is actual evidence that can be used to ascertain whether or not I will get paid for a job I've performed.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When Hurricane Mitch had ravaged Honduras, we had a mission group go to help. Food was extremely scarce. Some places we reached by having a helicopter drop food to unreached areas. We were at a location where we had two feeding stations with a vitamin fortified meal - looked like cream of wheat - that we had brought in.

The lines were non-stop until they realized the need was greater than the food. The director of the ministry, Tom Shaw, was so utterly broken by that reality that he left the immediate area to pray and cry. Compassion had reached his bowels and every time that type of compassion is reached, faith takes over because faith works through love.

Our youth who were serving were mesmerized when they kept serving and kept serving and kept serving until the lines were finished. They knew they were seeing a multiplication of food.

In other words, you had enough food.

I wonder about all those starving people across the globe who pray for food just like in the above situation, and never receive it. Does god just not like those people? Does god like the people who suffered from Hurricane Mitch more than those other people? Doesn't make any logical sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

Faith just isn't reasonable, and belief in the bible as a literal message from a God is absurd (unless God really has got dissociative identity disorder). It's too riddled with contradictions.

It is not only absurd for that reason. It is absurd because the Bible was written by men, not by God.
Moreover, the Bible was not even written by any prophets of God, let alone by Jesus....

So why should we believe the Bible is the Word of God? That is a totally faith-based belief, because one has to have a faith in order to believe that all those authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I have no reason to believe that all those authors were inspired by the Holy Spirit, especially because of all the errors and contradictions in the Bible, so I cannot believe it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ratiocinator]

When Hurricane Mitch had ravaged Honduras, we had a mission group go to help. Food was extremely scarce. Some places we reached by having a helicopter drop food to unreached areas. We were at a location where we had two feeding stations with a vitamin fortified meal - looked like cream of wheat - that we had brought in.

The lines were non-stop until they realized the need was greater than the food. The director of the ministry, Tom Shaw, was so utterly broken by that reality that he left the immediate area to pray and cry. Compassion had reached his bowels and every time that type of compassion is reached, faith takes over because faith works through love.

Our youth who were serving were mesmerized when they kept serving and kept serving and kept serving until the lines were finished. They knew they were seeing a multiplication of food.

An anecdote is not reasoning.

 

[ratiocinator]

But let's say that you were never told anything and you just read the Bible for the very first time.
Would you have faith in it? Would you believe it was true?

No, I saw nothing coherent to believe in. Two things struck me, first that what I'd been told wasn't there, but later, that I could extract no coherent, overall message at all. I mean, sure, there are parts of it that are good and inspirational, but it wasn't particularly unique in that respect, and other parts seemed to totally contradict them.

It's a bit of a mess, really.

 

[Kenny]

The definition you gave was in very close alignment with mine.

Good

Right. So faith doesn't lead you down a pathway to truth. It can lead anywhere. Because it's something that is believed without evidence.

That could be an application of faith. Could be misguided faith.

What good is it if it doesn't lead you down the pathway to discovering truth and reality?

This is where we maybe differ. Truth and reality produces faith in my camp. Not the other way around.

Which again, aligns with the definition I gave.

Your definition matches with the one I gave.

ok

This isn't the faith we're talking about at all.

As I said before, there there are many definitions. I think it does implement faith. You have “faith” that they will pay you even though you don’t have evidence of their financial statements or the balance of their checkbook. Why isn’t that “faith” as defined in Heb 11:1 that I gave?

You've already tried this false equivalency on me before.

I disagree.

I don't have faith that I will get paid. That's just how commerce works. You get a job, you get paid for it. I'm not hoping to be paid when there is no evidence that I will be. For instance, if, on the first day on the job, the boss mentions that they're in massive debt and haven't been able to pay anyone as of late, I probably would just go home. I don't expect to be paid in such a situation. There is actual evidence that can be used to ascertain whether or not I will get paid for a job I've performed.

You are adding things that aren’t there in a normal circumstance.
D.
Are you saying that people don’t use faith when they say they will be paid for their work?

When we purchased airline tickets from Eastern airlines to go to Honduras and back, we had faith they would do that. We got to Honduras and three days later they closed shop and we were stranded. Misplaced faith but faith none-the-less

You do use faith to get paid for your work. I don’t know why you are arguing the point.

 

[Kenny]

An anecdote is not reasoning.

Sorry… will readjust to answer your question correctly… have to leave at this moment.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, I saw nothing coherent to believe in. Two things struck me, first that what I'd been told wasn't there,

It is not there because what you were told were Christian doctrines that are not supported by the Bible.

It's a bit of a mess, really.

That is an understatement.

 

[Kenny]

An anecdote is not reasoning.

I started to type an answer when I came to the conclusion that I’m not quite sure what you want me to explain.