Is morality unique to humans?

[logician]

Animals have no such code of conduct. The laws of the animal kingdom are survival of the fittest. The strong determines the code, because they can. All of the other animals are kept in check by the force of the strong. It's not about right and wrong.

The difference between "animals", and human "animals", is really not that much.

 

[Danmac]

The difference between "animals", and human "animals", is really not that much.

Do animals have a system of justice? I ma not talking about the little doogy getting mauled because he stuck his nose in the food before big doggy was finished. I am talking about justice enforced by animal peers.

 

[Nepenthe]

Do animals have a system of justice? I ma not talking about the little doogy getting mauled because he stuck his nose in the food before big doggy was finished. I am talking about justice enforced by animal peers.

Does your example require that the animals wear funny looking wigs and bang a gavel every now and then? I'm not sure what your definition of a "system of justice" is but I'm sure there are examples scattered throughout this thread on animal empathy, compassion, etc., but I wonder if you'll just shift the goalposts or ignore the posts that mention the research.

There are thousands of studies indicating that animals display empathy, altruism and justice outside their family and even outside their species. One of my favorite examples is the female fruit bat that assisted another fruit bat that was having trouble giving birth. Abstract here. Some bats also participate in communal nursing when the mother is incapable of producing sufficient milk. Kerth has a really cool pdf on bat social interactions with many more examples and references to peer reviewed papers. Elephant altruism is well documented. There's a form of social justice with Capuchin monkeys who display "inequity aversion", that is they distribute food equally amongst each other while the females monitor the exchanges to make sure the distribution is done fairly and react negatively if one of them is short changed or cheated. The same has been observed in chimpanzees and dogs (see the entirety of The Absence of Reward Induces Inequity Aversion in Dogs).

 

[Meow Mix]

Do animals have a system of justice? I ma not talking about the little doogy getting mauled because he stuck his nose in the food before big doggy was finished. I am talking about justice enforced by animal peers.

If chimps find food but don't share it they'll be punished and sometimes ostracized by their peers.

Chimps also have a notion of property and a notion of stealing related to objects they keep close to their bodies. If given tubes (which are required to be fed) they will quickly figure out that if they have two tubes they get more food; but even the alpha won't steal the tube from the lowest ranked chimp if that chimp keeps it close to his body. If chimps do steal other chimp food tubes while close to their bodies the other chimps react negatively.

 

[painted wolf]

Do animals have a system of justice? I ma not talking about the little doogy getting mauled because he stuck his nose in the food before big doggy was finished. I am talking about justice enforced by animal peers.

Absolutely. Among some social insects like honey bees there is even a death penalty for some crimes. Though most social animals are not that extreme. Usually shunning a "criminal" is enough but sometimes roughing them up is called for.

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/anth169/punishment_in_animal_societies.pdf

wa:do

 

[Danmac]

Does your example require that the animals wear funny looking wigs and bang a gavel every now and then? I'm not sure what your definition of a "system of justice" is but I'm sure there are examples scattered throughout this thread on animal empathy, compassion, etc., but I wonder if you'll just shift the goalposts or ignore the posts that mention the research.

There are thousands of studies indicating that animals display empathy, altruism and justice outside their family and even outside their species. One of my favorite examples is the female fruit bat that assisted another fruit bat that was having trouble giving birth. Abstract here. Some bats also participate in communal nursing when the mother is incapable of producing sufficient milk. Kerth has a really cool pdf on bat social interactions with many more examples and references to peer reviewed papers. Elephant altruism is well documented. There's a form of social justice with Capuchin monkeys who display "inequity aversion", that is they distribute food equally amongst each other while the females monitor the exchanges to make sure the distribution is done fairly and react negatively if one of them is short changed or cheated. The same has been observed in chimpanzees and dogs (see the entirety of The Absence of Reward Induces Inequity Aversion in Dogs).

So animals show affection, and get mad if they get cheated. That's not justice that's selfish affection. What does that have to do with justice?

 

[Danmac]

Absolutely. Among some social insects like honey bees there is even a death penalty for some crimes. Though most social animals are not that extreme. Usually shunning a "criminal" is enough but sometimes roughing them up is called for.

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/anth169/punishment_in_animal_societies.pdf

wa:do

For example?

 

[painted wolf]

ScienceDirect - Animal Behaviour : Worker oviposition and policing behaviour in the myrmicine ant Aphaenogaster smythiesi japonica Forel

wa:do

 

[Nepenthe]

So animals show affection, and get mad if they get cheated. That's not justice that's selfish affection. What does that have to do with justice?

No, you obviously didn't interpret my post correctly much less read the linked article(s). The capuchin monkeys example showed how the monitoring monkeys intervened and punished when they saw another monkey cheated- they weren't mad because they themselves were being ripped off. They were not personally affected at all, but intervened when they saw the unequal distribution of food for others.
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/anth169/punishment_in_animal_societies.pdf

And since PW included an awesome paper on ant policing behavior- and I'm pretty familiar with and really like de Waal's work on primates- I'll throw Policing Stabilizes Construction of Social Niches in Primates out there too.

Maybe you can give me an example and definition of what you'd consider "justice"? All expressions of justice from non-human and human animals is "selfish" in that it impacts their society as a whole. I'm not sure why you'd misinterpret it as "selfish affection" other than an attempt to shift the goalposts so no example of animal altruism, compassion, punishment or justice will fit your definition.

 

[Danmac]

If chimps find food but don't share it they'll be punished and sometimes ostracized by their peers.

Is this motivated by anger or justice? Parents abuse their children when they are angry for violating a rule. However, it is not done in the name of justice, or even correction. Do you disagree?

Chimps also have a notion of property and a notion of stealing related to objects they keep close to their bodies. If given tubes (which are required to be fed) they will quickly figure out that if they have two tubes they get more food; but even the alpha won't steal the tube from the lowest ranked chimp if that chimp keeps it close to his body. If chimps do steal other chimp food tubes while close to their bodies the other chimps react negatively.

Again, is this an attempt to balance the scales of justice, or is this angrily motivated? A judge is not permitted to render a decision that is influenced by anger.

 

[Danmac]

No, you obviously didn't interpret my post correctly much less read the linked article(s). The capuchin monkeys example showed how the monitoring monkeys intervened and punished when they saw another monkey cheated- they weren't mad because they themselves were being ripped off. They were not personally affected at all, but intervened when they saw the unequal distribution of food for others.
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gurven/anth169/punishment_in_animal_societies.pdf

And since PW included an awesome paper on ant policing behavior- and I'm pretty familiar with and really like de Waal's work on primates- I'll throw Policing Stabilizes Construction of Social Niches in Primates out there too.

Maybe you can give me an example and definition of what you'd consider "justice"? All expressions of justice from non-human and human animals is "selfish" in that it impacts their society as a whole. I'm not sure why you'd misinterpret it as "selfish affection" other than an attempt to shift the goalposts so no example of animal altruism, compassion, punishment or justice will fit your definition.

In any system of justice there are standards, laws, and principles that are prescribed in order to maintain a peaceful, and civil community. When laws are violated there are predetermined consequences that are imposed upon the violator. The good of universal being is infinitely valuable in itself. Maintaining this should be the motivating factor behind any system of justice. The instances that you speak of are not instances of justice, but instances of retribution motivated by anger. Any judge that is motivated to render a decision that is motivated or influenced by anger is violating the the guidelines of justice.

 

[painted wolf]

In any system of justice there are standards, laws, and principles that are prescribed in order to maintain a peaceful, and civil community. When laws are violated there are predetermined consequences that are imposed upon the violator. The good of universal being is infinitely valuable in itself. Maintaining this should be the motivating factor behind any system of justice. The instances that you speak of are not instances of justice, but instances of retribution motivated by anger. Any judge that is motivated to render a decision that is motivated or influenced by anger is violating the the guidelines of justice.

Well, there goes human justice then.

wa:do

 

[McBell]

Well, there goes human justice then.

wa:do

interesting the straws he grasps onto in order to maintain the 'integrity' of his box.

 

[Quiddity]

[/color] The joke is that you need to make an arbitrary line between human and animal behavior to justify your feeling good about yourself.

wa:do

Feel good about myself?........lol......

Yes, I need animals to be less them me......for me to feel good...:areyoucra

BTW, have we met? You seem to be keenly aware of my insecurities and confidence level. Sounds like a personal comment.

You seem to think that anybody that doesn't see animals on par with humans is an anti-PETA right wing nut that goes hunting for fun.

 

[painted wolf]

I'm anti-PETA and love to eat wild game....

The point is, that some people of faith seem to be hung up about Humans needing to be "above" the animals... That if humans are animals then God won't love them anymore.
So, they will make any justification they can to separate human and animal behavior... even if it doesn't make any logical sense.

For example, insisting that when a Human does X, it is proof of divine nature... but when an animal does the same X it is just blind instinct and of no merit.

however if such things keep people feeling like they are special, then they will inevitably find a way to preserve that. But when talking about scientific evidence, that doesn't cut it.

wa:do

 

[Nepenthe]

In any system of justice there are standards, laws, and principles that are prescribed in order to maintain a peaceful, and civil community. When laws are violated there are predetermined consequences that are imposed upon the violator. The good of universal being is infinitely valuable in itself. Maintaining this should be the motivating factor behind any system of justice. The instances that you speak of are not instances of justice, but instances of retribution motivated by anger. Any judge that is motivated to render a decision that is motivated or influenced by anger is violating the the guidelines of justice.

Like most creationist types your sole contribution to debate is moving goalposts. As I already mentioned in a previous post in this thread nothing short of this will conform to your ridiculous definition of justice:

 

[Quiddity]

I'm anti-PETA and love to eat wild game....

The point is, that some people of faith seem to be hung up about Humans needing to be "above" the animals... That if humans are animals then God won't love them anymore.
So, they will make any justification they can to separate human and animal behavior... even if it doesn't make any logical sense.

For example, insisting that when a Human does X, it is proof of divine nature... but when an animal does the same X it is just blind instinct and of no merit.

however if such things keep people feeling like they are special, then they will inevitably find a way to preserve that. But when talking about scientific evidence, that doesn't cut it.

wa:do

I believe animals have spirits. I believe they should be treated with the upmost respect. I believe animals doing X does carry some merit.

I believe these things and I am a person of faith. However, believing these things does not necessitate humans and animals being equal.

 

[painted wolf]

I believe animals have spirits. I believe they should be treated with the upmost respect. I believe animals doing X does carry some merit.

I believe these things and I am a person of faith. However, believing these things does not necessitate humans and animals being equal.

So X has merit... but not morality. Only humans get to have morality?

wa:do

 

[Quiddity]

So X has merit... but not morality. Only humans get to have morality?

wa:do

I wouldn't bother me in the slightest if animals had morality on par with humans; I just don't think they do.

 

[painted wolf]

I wouldn't bother me in the slightest if animals had morality on par with humans; I just don't think they do.

uh huh... which brings us back to where we started. The evidence doesn't matter if you don't want to think something else.

wa:do