Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
It's similar at best. You can inject more into the evidence if you'd like; I've seen it and I guess you are more easily impressed then I am.
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Is morality unique to humans?
- Thread starter Noaidi
- Start date
I don't think we are saying that animals have morality on par with humans. Heck, I wouldn't even say that animals have morality. What they do show is behavior consistent with what we consider moral behavior. This shows how such behavior could have evolved and become predominant-- or at least preferred-- in a social animal like humans.
However, claiming that there are no precursors to morality in non-human animals, is like ignoring that light-receptive patches on bacteria (eyespots) are precursors to fully developed eyes.
Or, perhaps closer to home, it would be like saying that dogs really don't have sight since they can't see color (like us). Or perhaps, saying that we really don't have sight, since ours is not as sharp as an eagles.
The whole point is that there is a continuum of behavior in the animal world that shows how morality could have evolved. It's not about claiming that dogs think deeply about "right" and "wrong".
Danmac
Well-Known Member
When they run out of good arguments they tend to attack the person rather than the argument. It appears to be the routine.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Wait a sec, painted wolf I think I agree with Victor .... he's not saying animals *do not* have morality, he's just saying that it is not equivalent to human morality. (Correct?)
logician
Well-Known Member
The problem is that this is a strawman. Most people aren't claiming that animals have a sense of morality on par with humans.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Nor am I saying it's "on par" with humans... but earlier Victor clearly stated (post 63) that animals only have behavior and can't be compared to humans at all.
I'm still confused if humans and animals do the same behavior, is only the human doing so moral?
Say adopting an orphan?
And, I've never said animals have the same level of moral behavior as humans do... moral complexity is as far as I have observed, proportional to social structure complexity.
wa:do
I'm still confused if humans and animals do the same behavior, is only the human doing so moral?
Say adopting an orphan?
And, I've never said animals have the same level of moral behavior as humans do... moral complexity is as far as I have observed, proportional to social structure complexity.
wa:do
Danmac
Well-Known Member
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Clearly, there seems to be a huge moral difference between humans and all other living animals, just as there are remarkable similarities. But perhaps you're emphasizing the similarities, because you believe Victor and Danmac do not understand or appreciate them. I mean, if an adult chimp had the *same* moral capacity as an adult human being, then we would treat adult chimps like adult humans. Instead, we treat them like human children, at best, morally speaking. (Right?)
Maybe it just depends on your frame of reference. If you start from the idea that animals are mindless automatons with no morality, then it's incredible how similar many species are to us. If you start from the idea that homo sapiens are just another primate, then the incredible human capacity to imagine and empathize, plan and cooperate, and our systems of law and society are undoubtedly unique and remarkable.
I'm just sort of thinking out loud here....
Let me get this straight: You either (1) simply didn't check out the link to see who wrote the article, or (2) you are completely and deeply ignorant of what Frans De Waal has accomplished in his life, or (3) you've heard what he's accomplished but lack the ability to understand why he might be qualified to discuss morals? Which is it?
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
4) he simply doesn't care about anything that might disagree with him... so why bother reading it?
wa:do
wa:do
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Great article! Frubals to you, if I have any left.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Essentially.
Exactly... and if you look at it from an evolutionary frame of reference, then it is a matter of degree. Larger social groups require more elaborate means of maintaining social cohesion. Not that this takes anything away from our uniqueness.
Better than I manage some days.
wa:do
I would say morality is inherent in evolution. But that doesn't mean that every behavior living organisms display would suggest morality. Just like not every behavior humans display suggests morality (take wars for example)
I wrote a post on Morality & Evolution. You can read it here: Does Morality Come from Evolution? | Natural Philosophy of Life
Danmac
Well-Known Member
5) Liberals such as yourself have all but destroyed this great country, and I am fed up with your justification for doing so.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
I wouldn't know, I'm not a liberal.
But hey, whatever makes you feel superior right?
wa:do
Danmac
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't know, I'm not a liberal.
But hey, whatever makes you feel superior right?
wa:do
Who did you vote for president the last election? :yes:
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
You really do have the cutest little "black or white" view of the world don't you.
If you must know, I vote for candidates on both sides of the ticket, including McCain in the primaries... :slap:
I also vote for Libertarians and Greens when they convince me they are good candidates.
Oh us independent thinkers.... ruining this noble country of loyal followers.:thud:
wa:do