Is Moses God?

[Ben Avraham]

You are a Messianic Jew?

Yes, I am, but because I am a part of the collective concept of Messiah. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His people; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23.[/QUOTE]

 

[BilliardsBall]

Israel is a son of God, and all to whom the Word came are (plural) sons. However, Israel does not fulfill the prophecies of say, Isaiah 49, which you have continued to ignore, or Isaiah 53. Israel did not die then resurrect. Israel wasn't buried with a rich man in a tomb nor died between transgressors. Psalm 22: Israel didn't have its wrists and feet pierced nor was it surrounded by Gentiles who gambled for its clothing (nor was King David).

By "Messianic Jew" I was asking if you've trusted Y'shua for salvation.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Israel is a son of God, and all to whom the Word came are (plural) sons. However, Israel does not fulfill the prophecies of say, Isaiah 49, which you have continued to ignore, or Isaiah 53. Israel did not die then resurrect. Israel wasn't buried with a rich man in a tomb nor died between transgressors. Psalm 22: Israel didn't have its wrists and feet pierced nor was it surrounded by Gentiles who gambled for its clothing (nor was King David).

By "Messianic Jew" I was asking if you've trusted Y'shua for salvation.

Isaiah 49:1 - "The Lord appointed me before I was born and He named me while I was in my mother's womb.
Isaiah 49:3 - "And He said to me: 'You are My Servant Israel in whom I glory.'"
Isaiah 49:7 - "Thus said the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel his holy one."
Isaiah 52:13 - "Indeed my servant shall prosper." That's what Isaiah 53 is all about: Israel, the Suffering Servant of the Lord.
Isaiah 41:8,9 "But you Israel My Servant whom I have chosen."
Isaiah 44:1,2,21 - "For you O Israel are My Servant; never forget Me!"

Now, if you read Psalm 44:9-27, the Suffering Servant that you read in Isaiah 53 in the singular is the very same in the plural in Psalm 44:9-27. That's why the great Tzadik Rabbi Rashi enlisted himself with those who adopted the version of the collective Messiah in Israel. I also adopt that concept but I take from Prophet Habakkuk in 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God according to Exodus 4:22,23.

I hope I have covered all you have so long badgered me for in Isaiah 49.

 

[Didachist]

The number of types that portray Moses as God are difficult to ignore. In Exodus chapter 4 God tells Moses that Aaron with be his mouth, and he will be as God to Aaron. Whatever Moses say will be as though it's from God, so far as Aaron is concerned. In Exodus chapter 7, God tells Moses that he has made him (Moses) a God to Pharaoh, and Aaron is Moses' prophet.

But this is the tip of the iceberg. Multifarious scripture paint Moses as a human emblem of God the Father.



John

Mr Brey have you heard of Theosis?
and if you have , have you considered its significance in light of your theory?

here are a few scriptural descriptions of theosis.

2 peter 1:4 4Throughthese He has given us His precious and magnificentpromises, so that through them you may becomepartakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

John 17:21 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have giventhem the glory You gave Me, so that they may be oneas We are one — 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.…

10:4 And loving Him thou wilt be an imitator of His goodness. And marvel not that a man can be an imitator of God. He can, if God willeth it.
10:6 But whosoever taketh upon himself the burden of his neighbour, whosoever desireth to benefit one that is worse off in that in which he himself is superior,whosoever by supplying to those that are in want possessions which he received from God becomes a God to those who receive them from him, he is an imitator of God.

 

[John D. Brey]

Mr Brey have you heard of Theosis?
and if you have , have you considered its significance in light of your theory?

here are a few scriptural descriptions of theosis.

2 peter 1:4 4Throughthese He has given us His precious and magnificentpromises, so that through them you may becomepartakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

John 17:21 21that all of them may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I am in You. May they also be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22I have giventhem the glory You gave Me, so that they may be oneas We are one — 23I in them and You in Me—that they may be perfectly united, so that the world may know that You sent Me and have loved them just as You have loved Me.…

10:4 And loving Him thou wilt be an imitator of His goodness. And marvel not that a man can be an imitator of God. He can, if God willeth it.
10:6 But whosoever taketh upon himself the burden of his neighbour, whosoever desireth to benefit one that is worse off in that in which he himself is superior,whosoever by supplying to those that are in want possessions which he received from God becomes a God to those who receive them from him, he is an imitator of God.

. . . I don't have a problem with the concept of theosis. All I was talking about is the fact that Moses is a type of God. And in his typological emblematic representation of God he becomes a key opening up scriptures that can't be understood without the realization that Moses is representative of God in certain passages of scripture.


Dan

 

[Muffled]

He didn't say he was God, he is no more God than you and I are.

I believe when He says that He and the Father are one that He is saying that He is God.

 

[Muffled]

. . . The background for Moses being emblematic of God is given earlier in this thread, and the thread on Tiferet and Nehushtan.

Most things in the Tanakh are symbolic. There's good reason to picture Moses as emblematic of God the Father. Which is to say he represents a particular member of the Trinity for the sake of a systematic theology.



John

I don't believe there is evidence to support this. I do believe much of prophecy is symbolic.

 

[Muffled]

I have to make an observation about Moses.
It's pretty simplistic, as are most of my thoughts.
In starting Genesis, didn't Moses create the _od in the book ?
Sooooooo....._od didn't exist before then.
_od was Moses' alter ego.......and it almost worked.
Along comes Saul.......
~
'mud

I believe you are trying to say the egg hatched the chicken that laid it. Moses didn't create God any more than the chicken created himself.

 

[`mud]

But before the fear of Ra,
came a loss of a ruler of spirits.
When writing his book, he wrote the word '_od',
didn't he ? I always get confused as to who wrote the Genesis!

 

[John D. Brey]

I don't believe there is evidence to support this. I do believe much of prophecy is symbolic.

. . . I'm ok with that so long as this isn't just your way of saying that even if I provided evidence you would have to start an infinite regression of not believing the evidence as a pretty air-tight epistemological orientation toward your always being correct and logically justified?

I say this since I've not yet found many people who don't employ this technique even to the point of not believing their deeper self, relegating it to the basement of their soul, by the same infinite regression.

It's a fool's errand to provide evidence for a theory to someone who has denied their own soul's right to speak ---by requiring that the invisible other provide solid evidence first for its existence, and then for what it would have one believe.


John

 

[psychoslice]

I believe when He says that He and the Father are one that He is saying that He is God.

Yes on a deeper level he is God, as you and I are also.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Isaiah 49:1 - "The Lord appointed me before I was born and He named me while I was in my mother's womb.
Isaiah 49:3 - "And He said to me: 'You are My Servant Israel in whom I glory.'"
Isaiah 49:7 - "Thus said the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel his holy one."
Isaiah 52:13 - "Indeed my servant shall prosper." That's what Isaiah 53 is all about: Israel, the Suffering Servant of the Lord.
Isaiah 41:8,9 "But you Israel My Servant whom I have chosen."
Isaiah 44:1,2,21 - "For you O Israel are My Servant; never forget Me!"

Now, if you read Psalm 44:9-27, the Suffering Servant that you read in Isaiah 53 in the singular is the very same in the plural in Psalm 44:9-27. That's why the great Tzadik Rabbi Rashi enlisted himself with those who adopted the version of the collective Messiah in Israel. I also adopt that concept but I take from Prophet Habakkuk in 3:13. "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God according to Exodus 4:22,23.

I hope I have covered all you have so long badgered me for in Isaiah 49.

Hi Ben,

I was traveling overseas. Sorry for the delay to reply.

No, you haven't covered "all" I asked for in this chapter. I'm Jewish, and I'm aware that we Jews take all these Messianic passages and make them about Israel. I was hoping for something "new" from you but got "the stock press release."

It is illogical to say all of Isaiah 49--for one example where you only quoted two verses but I emphasized twelve or more referring to Jesus, by the way--refers ONLY to Israel:

Isaiah 49 says also:

“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Which makes more sense, Ben? "Israel will restore Israel and bring back those of Israel God has kept" or "Messiah will restore Israel and bring back those of Israel God has kept".

Obviously Is. 49 is a Messianic passage. I will keep on speaking with Jewish brethren until they all attain to the knowledge and fellowship of Messiah, who tasted death and suffering that we might have life eternal.

Thanks.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Hi Ben, I was traveling overseas. Sorry for the delay to reply. No, you haven't covered "all" I asked for in this chapter. I'm Jewish, and I'm aware that we Jews take all these Messianic passages and make them about Israel. I was hoping for something "new" from you but got "the stock press release."

It is illogical to say all of Isaiah 49--for one example where you only quoted two verses but I emphasized twelve or more referring to Jesus, by the way--refers ONLY to Israel: Isaiah 49 says also: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”

Which makes more sense, Ben? "Israel will restore Israel and bring back those of Israel God has kept" or "Messiah will restore Israel and bring back those of Israel God has kept". Obviously Is. 49 is a Messianic passage. I will keep on speaking with Jewish brethren until they all attain to the knowledge and fellowship of Messiah, who tasted death and suffering that we might have life eternal. Thanks.

Are you sure that "we Jews take all Messianic passages and make them about Israel?" I think you have missed something right there. Most Jews are still waiting for an individual Messiah. Only a few believe in the collective concept of Messiah.

Nothing in the book of Isaiah refers to Jesus. It is all in your Christian preconceived mind. It makes a lot more sense that Israel will bring itself back to HaShem than any one else, especially the dead since I am sure you still have Jesus in mind as the Messiah. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6) Jesus indeed tasted death as we all will but none will get eternal life because no one who has been caused to exist can enjoy eternal life which belongs only with HaShem. (Gen. 3:22)

 

[BilliardsBall]

Are you sure that "we Jews take all Messianic passages and make them about Israel?" I think you have missed something right there. Most Jews are still waiting for an individual Messiah. Only a few believe in the collective concept of Messiah.

Nothing in the book of Isaiah refers to Jesus. It is all in your Christian preconceived mind. It makes a lot more sense that Israel will bring itself back to HaShem than any one else, especially the dead since I am sure you still have Jesus in mind as the Messiah. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6) Jesus indeed tasted death as we all will but none will get eternal life because no one who has been caused to exist can enjoy eternal life which belongs only with HaShem. (Gen. 3:22)

I was making a general statement re: classic passages like Isaiah 49 or 53 (in 53 "Israel" resurrects from the dead, is buried with a rich person, dies amongst sinners, etc.) and other things that are far easier to pin on Jesus than Israel.

And, again, Ben, please read what I wrote. I'm Jewish and turned to Christ as an adult. I had no "Christian preconceived mind" but rather, read the Hebrew scriptures and could see there is life eternal via trusting God within, sin and redemption within, and a personal Messiah within.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I was making a general statement re: classic passages like Isaiah 49 or 53 (in 53 "Israel" resurrects from the dead, is buried with a rich person, dies amongst sinners, etc.) and other things that are far easier to pin on Jesus than Israel.

And, again, Ben, please read what I wrote. I'm Jewish and turned to Christ as an adult. I had no "Christian preconceived mind" but rather, read the Hebrew scriptures and could see there is life eternal via trusting God within, sin and redemption within, and a personal Messiah within.

Sorry BB, you don't care to be compared with the "Jews-for-Baal" of the time of Elijah, I can see. (I Kings 18:21) So, you go ahead and prefer to straddle the issue between Jesus and Paul. It does not go that way my friend. You must either return to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach or side totally with Paul whose gospel was the NT. You cannot be a Jewish-Christian or a Christian-Jew. You were Jewish while a child and turned into a Christian as an adult. "Christ" was not the name of Jesus. "Christ" from the Greek means the Anointed One of the Lord. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what "Christ" is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Sorry BB, you don't care to be compared with the "Jews-for-Baal" of the time of Elijah, I can see. (I Kings 18:21) So, you go ahead and prefer to straddle the issue between Jesus and Paul. It does not go that way my friend. You must either return to the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach or side totally with Paul whose gospel was the NT. You cannot be a Jewish-Christian or a Christian-Jew. You were Jewish while a child and turned into a Christian as an adult. "Christ" was not the name of Jesus. "Christ" from the Greek means the Anointed One of the Lord. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what "Christ" is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. "Israel is My Son," said the Lord.

Ben, are you a worshipper of Y'shua? I cannot tell.

I'm aware that Christ = Christos = Mashiach = Anointed One. So what? I trust in Y'shua to be saved. The gospel of Y'shua, putting Rav Sh'aul aside for the moment, wasn't "Do Tanakh". Y'shua said, "Be perfect!" and "Unless your righteousness exceeds the Parushim, you cannot be saved."

Both Tanakh and Y'shua (and Paul) teach one cannot be saved by doing mitzvoth but by trusting in God.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Ben, are you a worshipper of Y'shua? I cannot tell.

I'm aware that Christ = Christos = Mashiach = Anointed One. So what? I trust in Y'shua to be saved. The gospel of Y'shua, putting Rav Sh'aul aside for the moment, wasn't "Do Tanakh". Y'shua said, "Be perfect!" and "Unless your righteousness exceeds the Parushim, you cannot be saved."

Both Tanakh and Y'shua (and Paul) teach one cannot be saved by doing mitzvoth but by trusting in God.

I worship only HaShem Who HaElohim. Jews do not worship the dead. If the gospel of Yeshua was not the Tanach, are you implying that he was not Jewish? If so, why did Jesus' parents make him go through circumcision on the 8th day of life as Jews are the only people in the world with that ritual tradition?

Now, with regards to the statement, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees, you cannot be saved" is not a Jewish statement, neither then nor today. So, Jesus never said it. And regarding not being saved by doing mitzvoth but by trusting in God, what is the difference between obeying the Law because you live by the Law and obeying the law because you trust in God? There is no difference as long as the Law is obeyed.

 

[psychoslice]

We are all One in God, Moses included.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I worship only HaShem Who HaElohim. Jews do not worship the dead. If the gospel of Yeshua was not the Tanach, are you implying that he was not Jewish? If so, why did Jesus' parents make him go through circumcision on the 8th day of life as Jews are the only people in the world with that ritual tradition?

Now, with regards to the statement, "Unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees, you cannot be saved" is not a Jewish statement, neither then nor today. So, Jesus never said it. And regarding not being saved by doing mitzvoth but by trusting in God, what is the difference between obeying the Law because you live by the Law and obeying the law because you trust in God? There is no difference as long as the Law is obeyed.

You can find the gospel of Y'shua in Tanakh, but there are parts of Tanakh that are in the Law of Moses, and parts that are not:

1. In Tanakh, you must trust in God to be saved.

2. How do you know "Unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees, you cannot be saved" is not a Jewish statement? A Jew made this statement.

3. How do you know what Y'shua said or didn't say? Please present any documents you have contemporaneous to the NT to explain them away.

You also asked a great question, Ben, "what is the difference between obeying the Law because you live by the Law and obeying the law because you trust in God"?

The difference is the one who lives by the law to be saved by it will live and die by it as we were told by Moses. The one who obeys the law because they trust in God is already believing and saved and lives by the law as a blessing unto God and others.

Consider: The Law says don't adulter. I live by a higher standard of God. The Law says don't murder. I live by a higher standard of God. Jesus is the aim of the Law for those who believe and understand.

 

[Ben Avraham]

1. In Tanakh, you must trust in God to be saved.

2. How do you know "Unless your righteousness exceeds the Pharisees, you cannot be saved" is not a Jewish statement? A Jew made this statement.

3. How do you know what Y'shua said or didn't say? Please present any documents you have contemporaneous to the NT to explain them away.

1. There are two kinds of salvation. One is universal salvation from universal catastrophes of the size of the Flood. That's free. The other is personal salvation. We must obey the laws to have it. That's as simple as that.

2 - Because that statement was written by a Hellenist former disciple of Paul's who had a bitter grudge against the Pharisees.

3 - There is none. The NT is the only original source of knowledge about Jesus.