Is Mysticism possible in an Atheistic worldview

[Windwalker]

That concludes what I thought before I wrote the original post. I was really trying to formulate a case where mysticism is compatible with atheism and you have proved me wrong.

Mysticism is without a doubt incompatible with atheism and is an enigma to it and rational thought.

Why is it incompatible with atheism? It has nothing to do with beliefs in deities. Buddhists technically are atheists, and there are plenty of mystics within them. Sam Harris in fact identifies as a mystic, and you can't get more 'atheist' than him. In fact, for years I self-identified as atheist while at the same time engaging in mystical practices. In no way whatsoever do I lack rationality, or am anti-rational or anti-intellectual. Plus I know many mystics who self-identify as atheist.

Your statement that is is an enigma to rational thought is an irrational statement. That's like saying love is anti-rational. In reality, what I am hearing in your response is itself incompatible with rationality. It is not based in rational thought at all. Let's hear you justify this with rational arguments, rather than baseless dismissals that sound more like prejudicial knee-jerk reactions that falsely hide behind the moniker "rationality" and now-meaningless terms like 'skeptical thought' and 'freethinker'.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Why is it incompatible with atheism? It has nothing to do with beliefs in deities. Buddhists technically are atheists, and there are plenty of mystics within them. Sam Harris in fact identifies as a mystic, and you can't get more 'atheist' than him.

Sam Harris is not the prophet of atheists and he is also an individual who uses the word "spiritual" which is a very big issue for me. It means absolutely nothing and is often used in unison with the word mysticism. Mysticism the more and more I try to compartmentalize it becomes more and more supernatural.

Again, this is just a spur of the moment idea.

In fact, for years I self-identified as atheist while at the same time engaging in mystical practices. In no way whatsoever do I lack rationality, or am anti-rational or anti-intellectual. Plus I know many mystics who self-identify as atheist.

I never said you would lack rationality. It is just that mysticism dives into the supernatural the more I think of it. I am having a very hard issue separating it now.

Your statement that is is an enigma to rational thought is an irrational statement. That's like saying love is anti-rational.

You do not get it in the slightest bit.
Love is not anti-rational but it stands as a hindrance to rationality often times, does not mean it stands in opposition by merely existing.

Mysticism and it's removal from supernaturalism is the issue and that alone makes it a hindrance to Atheism. Atheists can believe in superstition or the supernatural but hold no belief in god and Buddhist are in the same category.

Atheist as a whole do not believe int he supernatural but when you do accept it it weakens the point of being an atheist since a god is indistinguishable from any other supernatural being.

In reality, what I am hearing in your response is itself incompatible with rationality. It is not based in rational thought at all. Let's hear you justify this with rational arguments, rather than baseless dismissals that sound more like prejudicial knee-jerk reactions that falsely hide behind the moniker "rationality" and now-meaningless terms like 'skeptical thought' and 'freethinker'.

And just like that I have lost all hope again in your attacks. The minute you assume to much and begin making presumptions and attacks you are without a doubt not worth my time.

I also dislike terms like "freethinker" and "skeptical thought". They seem overly used and superfluous

 

[Windwalker]

Sam Harris is not the prophet of atheists and he is also an individual who uses the word "spiritual" which is a very big issue for me. It means absolutely nothing and is often used in unison with the word mysticism. Mysticism the more and more I try to compartmentalize it becomes more and more supernatural.

I don't consider mysticism to be dealing with the supernatural. Why do you? Do you believe Einstein, or any of that list of modern physicists are espousing the supernatural? I don't.

I never said you would lack rationality. It is just that mysticism dives into the supernatural the more I think of it. I am having a very hard issue separating it now.

I'm not sure how you are making your leap into the supernatural here. How are you thinking your way into that?

You do not get it in the slightest bit.
Love is not anti-rational but it stands as a hindrance to rationality often times, does not mean it stands in opposition by merely existing.

Are you suggesting rationality is superior to love? You do know that the opposite can rightly and justly be said, that rationality can sometimes stand in the way of experiencing love? In fact, I'd say it's become quite an illness, a pathology in a lot of regards for many people.

When it comes to mysticism it really boils down to one simple thing. It's a perceptual way of understanding the nature of oneself and the nature of reality and their relationship within it. Nothing supernatural going on here. I liken it to love because it too is a set of eyes through which we know truth. AND, if the rational mind blocks us from knowing reality through these other sets of eyes, then it is unrealistic, unhealthy, and unnatural. It's all about balance.

Mysticism and it's removal from supernaturalism is the issue and that alone makes it a hindrance to Atheism.

It is my argument that it should be the next step in advancement of atheism into moving beyond mythic supernaturalism, into a fluid and unboxed reality dictated by external authorities, be that the Holy See, or Richard Dawkins and the neo-atheism 'movement'.

Atheists can believe in superstition or the supernatural but hold no belief in god and Buddhist are in the same category.

Sure, then they are operating at a prerational level, regardless of their views of deities. I know plenty of atheists that are really nothing but "Christians without God". It's just the flip-side of the fundamentalist coin that has 'no-god' on the otherside. Same approach to the big questions though.

And just like that I have lost all hope again in your attacks. The minute you assume to much and begin making presumptions and attacks you are without a doubt not worth my time.

Cut me some slack here. I was subjected to you outright dismissing what I presented without offering any sort of rational rebuttal to the points I raised. How am I supposed to read that? It struck me as the same sort of neo-atheist closed-minded retort, assuming the other person they're talking to believes in the supernatural, and whatnot. If you don't think that way, are interested in actually exploring this rationally, I'm your daisy, so to speak.

I also dislike terms like "freethinker" and "skeptical thought". They seem overly used and superfluous

Great, I believe so as well. I'm tired of rhetoric instead of rationality from those who claim it as their beacon of hope for humanity, and toss it out the window the moment the knee starts jerking. Sorry if I assumed this is what you were doing.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Mysticism is available to anyone regardless of ideology. It is the remembering of that inexplicable relationship between the individual and the rest of the universe.

 

[Windwalker]

"Our task must be to free ourselves by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature and its beauty."

~Albert Einstein

This is the heart of mysticism, that some call against reason.

 

[Sunstone]

Acknowledging and self interpreting the world into something meaningful is what I have always labelled as mysticism. Mythical thinking along is a result of mysticism and a perfect example of it.

Your definition seems to reduce mysticism to the trivial. But whatever floats your boat.

 

[s2a]

The Atheistic worldview is usually materialistic to a greater extent although this is not a requirement for atheism of course. Materialism does not lead into nihilism as many theists would believe.
The usual atheist position about the world is naturalism not materialism believe it or not. More importantly neither philosophies are the same thing.

I am an atheist and a mystic although it is not in the woo sense of the term. I simply hold onto the belief that subjective opinions, experiences, and practices lead to a more fruitful life. Acknowledging and self interpreting the world into something meaningful is what I have always labelled as mysticism. Mythical thinking along is a result of mysticism and a perfect example of it.

I just feel like a stinker in offering a reply here.

Most atheists I know (albeit few in actuality) are more skeptical than anything else. Mysticism seems too much "black cats" ladders, umbrellas indoors, and planetary alignments than anything concrete or testable. Same may be said of UFO's, ghosts, Nessie, or Bigfoot.

Call me a skeptic, but I'm just one of many that do not think (or believe) that "mystical things" are but an erstwhile religious workaround for "named" super-naturalistic cause/effect results.

The shared similarity of mysticism and religiosity is the notion that some invisible entity, or deity, or "force" either allows, or causes "things" to happen (for a "reason".

Maybe, just maybe, "things" just happen for no reason (or assignable purpose) at all.

Terrifying for some, I know.

I don't like it, but I can live with it.

Besides, what other option is available other that to believe that "something else" is in control?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Your definition seems to reduce mysticism to the trivial. But whatever floats your boat.

Well, I just figured out it is a trivial concept. When I think about it, everybody is a mystic in the utmost simplest of the terms. Nobody except a person of total vanity tries departing himself from the world and what it holds.
Skepticism, reason and logic are forms of mysticism considering that all 3 mutual goals consist of self improvement and discovery.
Mysticism is just a trivial word when I look at it.
There is the issue on the level of mysticism though which can easily be debated. I of course assert that dogma of any kind is harmful to mysticism.

 

[Windwalker]

Mysticism seems too much "black cats" ladders, umbrellas indoors, and planetary alignments than anything concrete or testable. Same may be said of UFO's, ghosts, Nessie, or Bigfoot

May I ask what in the heck it is you are looking at that you call mysticism? None of these fit any of my thoughts and understanding of what mysticism is.

Call me a skeptic, but I'm just one of many that do not think (or believe) that "mystical things" are but an erstwhile religious workaround for "named" super-naturalistic cause/effect results.

I will not call you a skeptic. This is just ignorance, not skepticism. If you start with a false idea, then make conclusions around that false idea, that's not skepticism, it's just ignorance.

The shared similarity of mysticism and religiosity is the notion that some invisible entity, or deity, or "force" either allows, or causes "things" to happen (for a "reason".

This is false. Please explain for everyone what you think a mystic believes. Let's start with me. Tell me what you think I believe and point for point I'll tell you true or false. So far you're batting a zero.

Maybe, just maybe, "things" just happen for no reason (or assignable purpose) at all.

I have no problem with that.

Terrifying for some, I know.

Confronting that terror and passing through it is exactly what mysticism is. It's not avoiding it with myths, but a full frontal embrace of the Void. I look forward to you learning what mysticism does.

I don't like it, but I can live with it.

Ah, but you see this is the difference between the mystic and the average ways and means people try to 'cope' with reality. The mystic plunges headfirst into their own death, as it were, and emerges beyond merely coping with reality, but released from all avoidances into the mastery of life in themselves. Trust me, whatever it is you are calling mysticism, isn't.

Besides, what other option is available other that to believe that "something else" is in control?

Indeed. You aren't aware of that. Are you interested in learning from those who in fact know what mysticism is and have actual, real experience and can speak from that?

 

[Windwalker]

Well, I just figured out it is a trivial concept.

You've figured this out? I've figured something quite different out because I have real experience with it and a considerable amount more of research into these areas.

When I think about it, everybody is a mystic in the utmost simplest of the terms.

That is actually true to some point. It is my view that everyone is already fully enlightened. It's just simply a matter of becoming enlightened to that that's the struggle. This doesn't make mystical practices trival then. It makes them essential.

Let me tell you what mysticism is since you clearly do not know what it is. They are states of consciousness. States of consciousness open someone's perceptual awareness to loosen hold of the notions of reality we hold to be 'the way things are'. In so doing this, we grow. We grow in the ways we relate to ourselves and the world around us. NONE of this, NONE of this has anything to do with black cats, planetary alignments, cause and effect ideas, or beliefs in gods. It is simply this, shifting one's perspective through entering into higher states of consciousness. That is all it is.

If you are going to make conclusion, you should have facts first.

Nobody except a person of total vanity tries departing himself from the world and what it holds.

Well, this does not describe the mystic. The only thing the mystic does is tries to "wake up". That's not departing from the world, it's waking up to it! Ask anyone with mystical experience and they will all tell you this. This waking up results in embracing the world in a brilliance and vibrancy that was hidden and masked as we lived in a state of slumber and stupor in our "normal" consciousness.

There is so much to be learned here, if we can only get past these ignorant ideas about mysticism which have no foundation in reality.

Skepticism, reason and logic are forms of mysticism considering that all 3 mutual goals consist of self improvement and discovery.

No they are not forms of mysticism. Period. They are however necessary and important tools of the mind in being human! They are not mysticism however, any more then they are sex.

Mysticism is just a trivial word when I look at it.

Through the lens of ignorance, it is.

There is the issue on the level of mysticism though which can easily be debated.

Lets start with you defining mysticism, and then we can go from there. Forgive me for being so perturbed by this sort of discussion which refuses to listen to the facts and making pronouncements of ignorance. It's like somebody saying how messed up Christianity is because they pray to Mecca all day. There is no basis in reality to these arguments, and their subsequent conclusions. You're not talking about anything I am familiar with in my experience, nor considerable knowledge on the subject.

I of course assert that dogma of any kind is harmful to mysticism.

And skepticism!

 

[Sha'irullah]

You've figured this out? I've figured something quite different out because I have real experience with it and a considerable amount more of research into these areas.


That is actually true to some point. It is my view that everyone is already fully enlightened. It's just simply a matter of becoming enlightened to that that's the struggle. This doesn't make mystical practices trival then. It makes them essential.

Let me tell you what mysticism is since you clearly do not know what it is. They are states of consciousness. States of consciousness open someone's perceptual awareness to loosen hold of the notions of reality we hold to be 'the way things are'. In so doing this, we grow. We grow in the ways we relate to ourselves and the world around us. NONE of this, NONE of this has anything to do with black cats, planetary alignments, cause and effect ideas, or beliefs in gods. It is simply this, shifting one's perspective through entering into higher states of consciousness. That is all it is.

If you are going to make conclusion, you should have facts first.


Well, this does not describe the mystic. The only thing the mystic does is tries to "wake up". That's not departing from the world, it's waking up to it! Ask anyone with mystical experience and they will all tell you this. This waking up results in embracing the world in a brilliance and vibrancy that was hidden and masked as we lived in a state of slumber and stupor in our "normal" consciousness.

There is so much to be learned here, if we can only get past these ignorant ideas about mysticism which have no foundation in reality.


No they are not forms of mysticism. Period. They are however necessary and important tools of the mind in being human! They are not mysticism however, any more then they are sex.


Through the lens of ignorance, it is.


Lets start with you defining mysticism, and then we can go from there. Forgive me for being so perturbed by this sort of discussion which refuses to listen to the facts and making pronouncements of ignorance. It's like somebody saying how messed up Christianity is because they pray to Mecca all day. There is no basis in reality to these arguments, and their subsequent conclusions. You're not talking about anything I am familiar with in my experience, nor considerable knowledge on the subject.


And skepticism!

...Woo

 

[Windwalker]

Considering facts are being offered and ignored without any intelligent or rational counter to them, I conclude this is due to willful ignorance that is religious in nature. It is not skepticism, but cynicism which refuses to think. Sorry for being blunt here, but it really is annoying to someone as myself who highly values rationality. It's so.... fundamentalist.

 

[YmirGF]

Is Mysticism possible in an Atheistic worldview?

Yes, and I am proof, in the flesh, as it were. My journey has taken past god and traditional god concepts. Consciousness is funny that way. What seemed so reasonable yesterday no longer applies today... You, get used to it... eventually.

I'll add something here about atheism and mysticism. At that level it has as much relevance as theism does.

Precisely, WindyOne. Internally speaking, due to the Oneness experience, one isn't terribly concerned about god or gods after awhile. There is only consciousness, and hopefully an unlimited expansion of consciousness. Externally, commentaries may vary wildly due to the root assumptions about the nature of reality that mold the individual's experience. Some mystics may well talk about god whereas others have little or no use for the expression.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Well, I just figured out it is a trivial concept. When I think about it, everybody is a mystic in the utmost simplest of the terms. Nobody except a person of total vanity tries departing himself from the world and what it holds.
Skepticism, reason and logic are forms of mysticism considering that all 3 mutual goals consist of self improvement and discovery.
Mysticism is just a trivial word when I look at it.
There is the issue on the level of mysticism though which can easily be debated. I of course assert that dogma of any kind is harmful to mysticism.

My definition is a bit different. Mysticism for me has been the seeking out of the true essence of reality and the wonder behind it. It is true that all people are mystics in that we all seek out meaning and wonderment. But for those that identify themselves as mystics, they tend to actively seek beyond the normal boundaries, usually with an eye towards epistemology and psychology.

 

[Sunstone]

The shared similarity of mysticism and religiosity is the notion that some invisible entity, or deity, or "force" either allows, or causes "things" to happen (for a "reason".

What's the source for that notion of mysticism, captain? Have you been reading the back covers of books in the New Age isle again?

 

[Sunstone]

Well, I just figured out it is a trivial concept. When I think about it, everybody is a mystic in the utmost simplest of the terms. Nobody except a person of total vanity tries departing himself from the world and what it holds.
Skepticism, reason and logic are forms of mysticism considering that all 3 mutual goals consist of self improvement and discovery.
Mysticism is just a trivial word when I look at it.
There is the issue on the level of mysticism though which can easily be debated. I of course assert that dogma of any kind is harmful to mysticism.

Of course, what you're describing as "mysticism" has little or nothing to do with most to the material in this DIR. But I get that you love the word itself, are just fascinated with how it rolls off your tongue, and you don't care that you're using it in a way most of us don't.

 

[Windwalker]

Of course, what you're describing as "mysticism" has little or nothing to do with most to the material in this DIR. But I get that you love the word itself, are just fascinated with how it rolls off your tongue, and you don't care that you're using it in a way most of us don't.

It's funny how all of us who practice mysticism in one form or another have all said that what has been suggested by those who claim to be "skeptical" of it doesn't bear any resemblance to what we believe, think, or practice, are all being simply ignored. There is not even a question for any of us what we who practice it actually say about it ourselves! I would be like thinking we know all about evolution when we think it's a type of soda drink, and then shut out all discussion with scientists who try to explain to us, calling them names and whatnot. We are the experts here. Why disregard what we have to say? It makes no rational sense at all.

I am so sick to death of this pseudo-rationalist trend these days which amounts to nothing more than a new form of religious zealotry which flies meaningless placards with buzz-words like skeptic and rationalist as rallying flags. It pollutes the meaning of Reason. Some of the greatest minds the world has known have been mystics, and I believe it is so because they can see that rationality has its limits. They're truly smart enough to know it. It would be refreshing to the mind to see people ask for knowledge, rather than pronounce critical judgments out of absolute pure ignorance. /rant.

 

[Willamena]

Of course, what you're describing as "mysticism" has little or nothing to do with most to the material in this DIR. But I get that you love the word itself, are just fascinated with how it rolls off your tongue, and you don't care that you're using it in a way most of us don't.

The mystic police.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Of course, what you're describing as "mysticism" has little or nothing to do with most to the material in this DIR. But I get that you love the word itself, are just fascinated with how it rolls off your tongue, and you don't care that you're using it in a way most of us don't.

I am not fascinated by how it rolls off my tongue or anybody else's considering i am not fond of the word and it's connotations. When I think of mysticism i think of Occultism.
My gripe is that the more I learn of it the more I dislike it. I of all people always forget that Sufism is apart of mystical teachings. I view it in correlation with science now I view it as anti-science.
My conclusion of this is purely philosophical but it is still sound

 

[Sunstone]

The mystic police.

Busted! That's kind of imperialistic of me. On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit that "mysticism" has many definitions, but all the same, it's a meaningless word if it's made to mean just anything and everything.