Is Mysticism possible in an Atheistic worldview

[Windwalker]

When I think of mysticism i think of Occultism.

Admitting your ignorance is the first step. It is not Occultism. Do you care to hear what it is from those who engage in mystical states? Or do you just wish to continue to hold your opinions in ignorance?

My gripe is that the more I learn of it the more I dislike it.

Then please tell all of us what you know! I would love to hear you describe what you believe it is! I'm all ears.

I of all people always forget that Sufism is apart of mystical teachings.

What are these "mystical teachings" you speak of? I'm unaware of any.

I view it in correlation with science now I view it as anti-science.

So, you're saying Einstein was anti-science??? :thud:

It's not anti-science in the least! It embraces science with a passion! But you wouldn't know that because you don't ask!

My conclusion of this is purely philosophical but it is still sound

You're conclusions are not sound. They are foundationless.

 

[Windwalker]

Seriously, I'm sorry I offended you to the point to send me an unkind "**** off" frubal, but you should take a serious step back from arrogantly telling others what they believe. You don't know what you are talking about, and you'll rightly get your hind-end handed back to you.

 

[YmirGF]

Seriously, I'm sorry I offended you to the point to send me an unkind "**** off" frubal, but you should take a serious step back from arrogantly telling others what they believe. You don't know what you are talking about, and you'll rightly get your hind-end handed back to you.

Pffft. Tell us how you really feel.

I was amused by the anti-science thingy though. I had a good chuckle over that.

 

[Windwalker]

Pffft. Tell us how you really feel.

I was amused by the anti-science thingy though. I had a good chuckle over that.

Well seriously, I quoted Einstein for Christ's sake! I don't get why this is ignored. I love this quote,

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies
​

This knowledge.... as he calls it is in fact nothing other than mystical awareness and insight! My God. Anti-science my ***. It's just absurd. Wake the hell up and smell the genius. Don't know why I'm in such a rare mood in this thread. I'm just so tired of the absurdity, the irony of so-called "skeptical thought" which is anything but.

 

[YmirGF]

Well seriously, I quoted Einstein for Christ's sake! I don't get why this is ignored. I love this quote,

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom the emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand wrapped in awe, is as good as dead —his eyes are closed. The insight into the mystery of life, coupled though it be with fear, has also given rise to religion. To know what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms—this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.”

- Albert Einstein, Living Philosophies
​

This knowledge.... as he calls it is in fact nothing other than mystical awareness and insight! My God. Anti-science my ***. It's just absurd. Wake the hell up and smell the genius. Don't know why I'm in such a rare mood in this thread. I'm just so tired of the absurdity, the irony of so-called "skeptical thought" which is anything but.

It is a marvelous quote and I certainly appreciate his sentiments.

 

[Sha'irullah]

When it comes to mysticism I always wonder, what do mystics hope to achieve that other fields of knowledge do not. When I try to condense mysticism in the atheistic and naturalist view of life I come up blank. Biology has informed us about the working of emotions and the chemical processes of the brain. Physics has informed mankind on the nature of matter and energy yet mysticism hopes to accomplish.
No matter how many time you contemplate on the works of Rumi or Shankara you acquire only nothing when you realize all that they speak of is not mystical at all. Everything no matter how enigmatic it may be is just a result of the natural world.
No knowledge can exceed materialistic naturalism.

Einstein lived many decades ago and asserted a panentheistic/deistic deity. This is no longer the case.
Nothing is departed from the natural world and if mysticism asserts more than this then it is useless as there is no basis for such things in an atheistic/naturalist view.

 

[Willamena]

When it comes to mysticism I always wonder, what do mystics hope to achieve that other fields of knowledge do not.

Some would say enlightenment.

Some would say the laundry.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Some would say enlightenment.

Some would say the laundry.

Reading my MLA format book gives me enlightenment although it never helped with laundry

 

[Windwalker]

When it comes to mysticism I always wonder, what do mystics hope to achieve that other fields of knowledge do not.

Respectfully, I think you misunderstand motives. All we look for is connection. It's as simple as that. Other fields work fine, wonderfully so. But there is a point where you have to 'step beyond'. And that's the whole point of what I've been attempting, as faulted as I am, to convey. It's a compulsion, a passion is a better word, to taste the ALL. Everything is a sample of it, but then there is simply falling into the Ocean. I don't know how else to comunitate this. It is a passion to swallow the Universe. It's just that. It want's to know it, to become that, to awaken to that.

When I try to condense mysticism in the atheistic and naturalist view of life I come up blank.

The two are entirely compatible. Imagine it like this. You are a scientist. You are enamored by pondering the wonders of life through a rational view of its complexities and intricacies. But there is more. You want to taste it. You want to fall into it. You want to breathe it. You wish to become what you observe, be the eyes and ears of it. Be the hands of it. Be the taste of it. This, is mysticism. This is what is 'beyond' the ponderance of it. It's becoming life and loving itself, not just the observer, but the heart of it.

I sincerely hope you hear what is being said here.

Biology has informed us about the working of emotions and the chemical processes of the brain. Physics has informed mankind on the nature of matter and energy yet mysticism hopes to accomplish.

Not accomplish. But become. That's the difference. It's not an intellectual pursuit. It's a "being" pursuit.

No matter how many time you contemplate on the works of Rumi or Shankara you acquire only nothing when you realize all that they speak of is not mystical at all. Everything no matter how enigmatic it may be is just a result of the natural world.

It is the natural world!!! But what a wonderful world it is!! Beyond what you imagine with the reasoning mind alone!

No knowledge can exceed materialistic naturalism.

I cannot disagree more! Swim in the ocean. That's not an academic understanding, but an existential one. Swimming is not in a book. It's in doing.

Einstein lived many decades ago and asserted a panentheistic/deistic deity. This is no longer the case.

Not so.

Nothing is departed from the natural world and if mysticism asserts more than this then it is useless as there is no basis for such things in an atheistic/naturalist view.

Please keep going. You're coming closer to the reality of it. Not quite there yet. But I respect your efforts.

 

[s2a]

May I ask what in the heck it is you are looking at that you call mysticism? None of these fit any of my thoughts and understanding of what mysticism is.

Humble me in my place then. What is a mystic, or more broadly, "mysticism"? I'm always open to correction. Hopefully, you are that connection to "mysticism" that the rest of us hope to establish.

I will not call you a skeptic. This is just ignorance, not skepticism. If you start with a false idea, then make conclusions around that false idea, that's not skepticism, it's just ignorance.

Cool. Then I am just a complete ignoramus. Perhaps you may then be so generous to share just what ever a "mystic" DOES believe.?

This is false. Please explain for everyone what you think a mystic believes. Let's start with me. Tell me what you think I believe and point for point I'll tell you true or false. So far you're batting a zero.

I have confessed my utter ignorance as to what a "mystic" is, or claims to be.

Now...your turn. I am hardly the one to dictate your beliefs. Share with us all (upon request) once more, what is a "mystic" and how greatly their beliefs and "understandings" of the cosmos are sooo different from either religious doctrine or scientific inquiry? I'm listening, I promise.

Confronting that terror and passing through it is exactly what mysticism is. It's not avoiding it with myths, but a full frontal embrace of the Void. I look forward to you learning what mysticism does.

Um, yeah. The "void", as you like. STILL listening...waiting for a sound...

Ah, but you see this is the difference between the mystic and the average ways and means people try to 'cope' with reality. The mystic plunges headfirst into their own death, as it were, and emerges beyond merely coping with reality, but released from all avoidances into the mastery of life in themselves. Trust me, whatever it is you are calling mysticism, isn't.

I trust you. Explain it to me. STILL listening...

Indeed. You aren't aware of that. Are you interested in learning from those who in fact know what mysticism is and have actual, real experience and can speak from that?

Sure. STILL listening...

This is your opportunity to ignore my vague and faulty assumptions, and clear the air once and for all.

You may have seen this coming...but..."listening".

I am confident that you will offer the superiority and advantages of "mysticism" soon, right?

Right?

 

[Windwalker]

Humble me in my place then. What is a mystic, or more broadly, "mysticism"? I'm always open to correction. Hopefully, you are that connection to "mysticism" that the rest of us hope to establish.


Cool. Then I am just a complete ignoramus. Perhaps you may then be so generous to share just what ever a "mystic" DOES believe.?


I have confessed my utter ignorance as to what a "mystic" is, or claims to be.

Now...your turn. I am hardly the one to dictate your beliefs. Share with us all (upon request) once more, what is a "mystic" and how greatly their beliefs and "understandings" of the cosmos are sooo different from either religious doctrine or scientific inquiry? I'm listening, I promise.


Um, yeah. The "void", as you like. STILL listening...waiting for a sound...


I trust you. Explain it to me. STILL listening...

Sure. STILL listening...

This is your opportunity to ignore my vague and faulty assumptions, and clear the air once and for all.

You may have seen this coming...but..."listening".

I am confident that you will offer the superiority and advantages of "mysticism" soon, right?

Right?

Try again with sincerity, and I'll respond. As I see right now, you have your beliefs and are uninterested in hearing other thoughts than your own.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Humble me in my place then. What is a mystic, or more broadly, "mysticism"? I'm always open to correction. Hopefully, you are that connection to "mysticism" that the rest of us hope to establish.


Cool. Then I am just a complete ignoramus. Perhaps you may then be so generous to share just what ever a "mystic" DOES believe.?


I have confessed my utter ignorance as to what a "mystic" is, or claims to be.

Now...your turn. I am hardly the one to dictate your beliefs. Share with us all (upon request) once more, what is a "mystic" and how greatly their beliefs and "understandings" of the cosmos are sooo different from either religious doctrine or scientific inquiry? I'm listening, I promise.


Um, yeah. The "void", as you like. STILL listening...waiting for a sound...


I trust you. Explain it to me. STILL listening...

Sure. STILL listening...

This is your opportunity to ignore my vague and faulty assumptions, and clear the air once and for all.

You may have seen this coming...but..."listening".

I am confident that you will offer the superiority and advantages of "mysticism" soon, right?

Right?

For quite some time he has been posting stuff about Einstein and been making modified appeals to popularity. Einstein is not an expert on mysticism and considering the fact I made a half efforted attempt to reduce it there is nothing that can be said

 

[s2a]

Try again with sincerity, and I'll respond. As I see right now, you have your beliefs and are uninterested in hearing other thoughts than your own.

OW. I expressed a sincere and honest "I am listening" no less that three times in just one post. And you say I'm "not listening"...

So be it.

Your "standard" or description of sincerity must mean...something...that an English major will never understand.

OK.

All I see is a person covering their ears...and shouting loud enough to pretend no one else is speaking.

I get that a lot.

 

[s2a]

For quite some time he has been posting stuff about Einstein and been making modified appeals to popularity. Einstein is not an expert on mysticism and considering the fact I made a half efforted attempt to reduce it there is nothing that can be said

That's kinda interesting too.

Ever heard of deflection AND projection in the same sentence?

Me neither.

"Einstein"?

Post # please?

EVER?

Talk about shifting the goalposts to kill the straw man!

It was a SIMPLE question. What are the distinct differences to be made between mysticism and religious faith? Let's than debate those distinctions. That's all. I never saw this as any "trick question".

All I have heard is utter non-sequitur replies, dodges, and irrelevant innuendo.

"Einstein?"

Call me when we discuss relativistic physics, ok?

 

[methylatedghosts]

OW. I expressed a sincere and honest "I am listening" no less that three times in just one post. And you say I'm "not listening"...

So be it.

Your "standard" or description of sincerity must mean...something...that an English major will never understand.

OK.

All I see is a person covering their ears...and shouting loud enough to pretend no one else is speaking.

I get that a lot.

To be fair, the post he's responding to did come off as rather sarcastic...

 

[Sha'irullah]

That's kinda interesting too.

Ever heard of deflection AND projection in the same sentence?

Me neither.

"Einstein"?

Post # please?

EVER?

Talk about shifting the goalposts to kill the straw man!

It was a SIMPLE question. What are the distinct differences to be made between mysticism and religious faith? Let's than debate those distinctions. That's all. I never saw this as any "trick question".

All I have heard is utter non-sequitur replies, dodges, and irrelevant innuendo.

"Einstein?"

Call me when we discuss relativistic physics, ok?

Why would you wish to discuss physics?
Been wondering if I should minor or major in physics to be honest.

Also are your questions rhetorical or serious? I really cannot tell from the way you post

 

[s2a]

To be fair, the post he's responding to did come off as rather sarcastic...

The best rationale available to dodge a question posed?

C'mon.

Is sarcasm the new red-line?

*geez*

I never thought the original question was unfair or unreasonable

"What is the distinction and difference between religions belief and mysticism?"

Ignoring all deflections, and questioning a question with another question...is there an answer at all, or not?

C'mon. This should never be unanswerable or "mystical".

Unless, like the rest of us, you simply don't know.

 

[Sunstone]

"What is the distinction and difference between religions belief and mysticism?"

Are you genuinely asking with an open mind, or are you merely hoping to start a debate in DIR against forum rules?

 

[methylatedghosts]

The best rationale available to dodge a question posed?

C'mon.

Is sarcasm the new red-line?

*geez*

I never thought the original question was unfair or unreasonable

"What is the distinction and difference between religions belief and mysticism?"

Ignoring all deflections, and questioning a question with another question...is there an answer at all, or not?

C'mon. This should never be unanswerable or "mystical".

Unless, like the rest of us, you simply don't know.

I'm just saying, it came off as being sarcastic. If someone spoke (or posted) to me in such a manner, I'd feel disinclined to respond respectfully.

And I'm not really entering the discussion, but I'm following it, and would like the conversation to flow nicely, which is hindered by things like sarcasm and facetiousness, etc etc etc...

I mean:

"Now...your turn. I am hardly the one to dictate your beliefs. Share with us all (upon request) once more, what is a "mystic" and how greatly their beliefs and "understandings" of the cosmos are sooo different from either religious doctrine or scientific inquiry? I'm listening, I promise."

Sounds like a moody teen's response, rather than the respectful response one might expect from an adult. For example "Ok, you're right, I don't really know what you believe, so please outline some of your beliefs. What I currently think mysticism is or what a mystic believes is Xxx, Yyy, and Zzz."

All I'm really saying is - Be nice. I wanted to see Windwalkers response to your post, but I can totally understand why he didn't want to respond to it, and I hope you can see that too. Remember that bit about the DIRs being about respectful discussion/questions and stuff?

EDIT:

I'm just feeling a bit frustrated with the level of snarky, petty sarcastic posts on the forums that at best add nothing to a discussion, and at worst take away from it to the point where the discussion just isn't happening any more. So while you're my target in this post, I hope others read it and take it on board too. I know I have done that exact thing before, so I'm not excluding myself

 

[s2a]

Are you genuinely asking with an open mind, or are you merely hoping to start a debate in DIR against forum rules?

If "atheism" had not been introduced within this tread, I would not be here. Look it up.

MY mind remains open...and still listening...

Ask yourself...who was seeking debate in the offered challenge? And why?

Best not to tread upon thin ice when you wear leaden boots?

I'll happily, merrily, unquestionably leave this thread in the next heartbeat, if ALL notions of atheism are ignored. Fair enough?

Just as a reminder...this thread was entitled " Is Mysticism possible in an Atheistic worldview".

Tell me that requested answers were unwelcome.