Is no religion better than religion?

[Jedster]

.......
Since, just using faith? Anything Goes. Literally-- even a Religion Of One.

This reminds me of a friend who, whenever someone is trying to convert her, says,
"I belong to a church of which I am the only member and am not allowed to discuss it.
Have a nice day"

 

[Anna Therese]

She's talking about sedevacantism, which is a radical form of traditional Catholicism. It's sort of the Catholic equivalent of hellfire and brimstone Protestant fundamentalism. There's not very many of them and they don't even all agree with each other.

Sedevacantism - Wikipedia

No, you're wrong about Traditional Catholicism and you're wrong about the sedevacantist position. Briefly, I was talking about the Catholic Church vs. the prophesied Apostate Counter Church and its antipopes.

@adrian009, Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. The particular article is full of errors.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, you're wrong about Traditional Catholicism and you're wrong about the sedevacantist position. Briefly, I was talking about the Catholic Church vs. the prophesied Apostate Counter Church and its antipopes.

@adrian009, Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. The particular article is full of errors.

Oh, wow. I'm really convinced. I'm sure you have all the answers, though. Do tell.

 

[Dawnofhope]

No, you're wrong about Traditional Catholicism and you're wrong about the sedevacantist position. Briefly, I was talking about the Catholic Church vs. the prophesied Apostate Counter Church and its antipopes.

@adrian009, Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. The particular article is full of errors.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and faith @Anna Therese
As a Baha'i I'm very much a universalist so appreciate the efforts of the Catholic church to reach across the interfaith divide. The Catholics are strong supporters of the interfaith movement in my city. In that sense the perspective of Catholicism being the only true faith doesn't fit. For what its worth the common ground we do have:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended.

 

[Tiapan]

All religions comfort humans by providing myths to answer "unanswerable" questions and bind a language group socially together. All religions are simply different CULTS, biological experiments in Darwinistic social evolution. Better education alleviates the need for fantasy explanations of mythical beasts, angels and gods etc. with rational scientifically reasoned truth.
Do not wait to die to experience heaven/paradise - you standing in it already, appreciate and enjoy your very short privileged time of sentience between birth and death we call life.
Cheers

 

[Milton Platt]

The answer may be a resounding "No" for many of us for all sorts of reasons.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that religion should be like a healing medicine causing love and unity between peoples. If it does the opposite and causes estrangement and hatred, then that religion is no religion. Instead of being a healing medicine it is a deadly poison. It is noble and a truly religious act in the sight of God to leave such a religion.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 158-160

So at what point do you believe religion is harmful and at what point if at all should be abandon religion?

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated as always.

Once you become willing to believe something without sufficient evidence to support that belief, you set yourself up for believing all sorts of false things.

 

[Marcion]

Its better by far to have good social and spiritual practices, than a set of "I'm right and your wrong" religious doctrines. That is the whole point of this thread.

The negative or defective aspects of religion are not just in the "set of doctrines about I'm right and you're wong". They also have other irrational aspects that could be considered negatively from a purely spiritual viewpoint.

Many religions have some form of geosentiment. There is e.g. the false belief that there is a spiritual benefit from praying to God in a certain geographical direction or the false belief that there is some spiritual benefit from visiting holy shrines or holy temples or sacred stones etc.
In other religions there are beliefs that God can be made to grant boons if one pours milk over a statue or if one performs some other prescribed ritual ceremony (usually by a priest who has to be paid).
And many religions also cling to the irrational belief that their holy scriptures are infallible, cannot be questioned and came straight from the mouth of God or His Holy Spirit.

So a person like Gautama Buddha rejected all these superstitious aspects of certain traditions with their false doctrines and started a spiritual sangha (movement) instead. That was not yet another religion, not even something that rejected so-called "Hinduism", it just lacked all the negative aspects of what some now call religions.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The negative or defective aspects of religion are not just in the "set of doctrines about I'm right and you're wong". They also have other irrational aspects that could be considered negatively from a purely spiritual viewpoint.

Many religions have some form of geosentiment. There is e.g. the false belief that there is a spiritual benefit from praying to God in a certain geographical direction or the false belief that there is some spiritual benefit from visiting holy shrines or holy temples or sacred stones etc.
In other religions there are beliefs that God can be made to grant boons if one pours milk over a statue or if one performs some other prescribed ritual ceremony (usually by a priest who has to be paid).
And many religions also cling to the irrational belief that their holy scriptures are infallible, cannot be questioned and came straight from the mouth of God or His Holy Spirit.

So a person like Gautama Buddha rejected all these superstitious aspects of certain traditions with their false doctrines and started a spiritual sangha (movement) instead. That was not yet another religion, not even something that rejected so-called "Hinduism", it just lacked all the negative aspects of what some now call religions.

Our fundamental difference is whether we believe in God. Whether it is God named Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian God presented in the gospels, Allah in the Quran or God in the Baha'i writings, the God presented is very similar throughout. That is my belief and foundation. Beyond that living in accordance with the highest beliefs and principles is what counts. Those are the spiritual practices and social teachings.

 

[Marcion]

Our fundamental difference is whether we believe in God. Whether it is God named Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian God presented in the gospels, Allah in the Quran or God in the Baha'i writings, the God presented is very similar throughout. That is my belief and foundation. Beyond that living in accordance with the highest beliefs and principles is what counts. Those are the spiritual practices and social teachings.

If it was just a question of having a similar view of God then religions wouldn't have any problems from the spiritual viewpoint. However, it is not that simple and looking away from the problematic aspects isn't going to help.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If it was just a question of having a similar view of God then religions wouldn't have any problems from the spiritual viewpoint. However, it is not that simple and looking away from the problematic aspects isn't going to help.

Help what? For me there is no problematic area. The contradictions and inconsistencies you see can easily be explained. Of course you will not accept my explanation and I have no problem with that. I have no interest in converting you or anyone else to my religion. If your philosophy works for you then stick with it. Its not my place to judge you or the path you are on.

 

[Marcion]

Help what? For me there is no problematic area. The contradictions and inconsistencies you see can easily be explained. Of course you will not accept my explanation and I have no problem with that. I have no interest in converting you or anyone else to my religion. If your philosophy works for you then stick with it. Its not my place to judge you or the path you are on.

There is serious lack of depth in the way you approach this matter. We have an expression in Dutch which translates something like 'it feels like an eel in a bucket of snot'. That's the feeling I get with the way in which you answer these questions.
One simply can't get any grip on it.

 

[Dawnofhope]

There is serious lack of depth in the way you approach this matter. We have an expression in Dutch which translates something like 'it feels like an eel in a bucket of snot'. That's the feeling I get with the way in which you answer these questions.
One simply can't get any grip on it.

But you too are like a slippery eel and that’s fine. Neither of us require someone to grab hold of us as we swim happily through the ocean of being. Sometimes our paths intersect, other times diverge.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Once you become willing to believe something without sufficient evidence to support that belief, you set yourself up for believing all sorts of false things.

What evidence would you require?

I have seen it written, if one really (and I would say really) wants to know of God, that they can ask for one proof and if that proof is given, they must be content with that.

Many have had that personal confirmation and they are content with that.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If it was just a question of having a similar view of God then religions wouldn't have any problems from the spiritual viewpoint. However, it is not that simple and looking away from the problematic aspects isn't going to help.

Personally I think it is that simple, a frame of mind that sees the Oneness of God. That all creation goes back to the one source. Start teaching it tomorrow, then the next generation has the concept to build a lasting peace upon.

Maybe we need a major world encompassing calamity to show how that will work? People pride themsleves on working together whenever calamity strikes.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The negative or defective aspects of religion are not just in the "set of doctrines about I'm right and you're wong". They also have other irrational aspects that could be considered negatively from a purely spiritual viewpoint.

Many religions have some form of geosentiment. There is e.g. the false belief that there is a spiritual benefit from praying to God in a certain geographical direction or the false belief that there is some spiritual benefit from visiting holy shrines or holy temples or sacred stones etc.
In other religions there are beliefs that God can be made to grant boons if one pours milk over a statue or if one performs some other prescribed ritual ceremony (usually by a priest who has to be paid).
And many religions also cling to the irrational belief that their holy scriptures are infallible, cannot be questioned and came straight from the mouth of God or His Holy Spirit.

So a person like Gautama Buddha rejected all these superstitious aspects of certain traditions with their false doctrines and started a spiritual sangha (movement) instead. That was not yet another religion, not even something that rejected so-called "Hinduism", it just lacked all the negative aspects of what some now call religions.

People needed their crops to grow or their ancestors to reach some peaceful place in the sky, so their was prayers and rituals. Not many people in modern religions believe those things were real. Yet, they do pretty much the same thing. They pray for enough money to pay the bills... and give to the religion. They pray for their health and the health of their family. But what happens when things go bad? The religion gives them some kind of reason. Maybe that the gods are testing them.. They're teaching them to learn patience. If something really bad happens, like a friend or family member dies, the answer is that they are in a better place now. So if something good or bad happens, it doesn't matter. The religion has an answer either way. The invisible gods always know what's best.

But, without religion giving them some hope, what are most people going to do? Since religions promise a lot of different things in this life and in the afterlife, there is a good chance most of them are wrong. Yet, people keep believing and keep praying... and keep paying their religion. Hmmm, I wonder if religion is like a cosmic insurance plan? But, no one knows if the plan is actually being cashed in after people die. But, there is always a chance... no matter how irrational.

 

[74x12]

The answer may be a resounding "No" for many of us for all sorts of reasons.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that religion should be like a healing medicine causing love and unity between peoples. If it does the opposite and causes estrangement and hatred, then that religion is no religion. Instead of being a healing medicine it is a deadly poison. It is noble and a truly religious act in the sight of God to leave such a religion.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 158-160

So at what point do you believe religion is harmful and at what point if at all should be abandon religion?

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated as always.

No religion is better than false evil religions.

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally I think it is that simple, a frame of mind that sees the Oneness of God. That all creation goes back to the one source. Start teaching it tomorrow, then the next generation has the concept to build a lasting peace upon.

Maybe we need a major world encompassing calamity to show how that will work? People pride themsleves on working together whenever calamity strikes.

Regards Tony

Hey Tony, Many times Baha'is have said, usually to Old Badger, that they are not going to dominate and rule the world, even if they are in the majority. So, there will still be people with other religious beliefs, some probably opposed to Baha'i beliefs. There will be people that don't believe in religions, and therefore, oppose the Baha'is. And, the Baha'is won't be running the governments? How will that work to bring peace? The only people bound by the "peace" producing laws of the Baha'i Faith will be Baha'is. Everybody that is not a Baha'i can do things that aren't in line with Baha'i teachings, therefore, go against "God's" plan. Like drink alcoholic beverages, smoke pot and take other drugs, listen to suggestive music performed by scantily clad singers. And, speaking of scantily clad, people will still be going to see people dance with little or no clothing.

So, unless Baha'i do enforce their laws on everyone, some people will continue to do things considered immoral and illegal by the Baha'is. And that's not to mention that people within the Baha'i Faith won't get corrupted and do immoral and illegal things once in a while themselves. So where's the peace? It's still going to have to be forced upon some people for the greater good of all isn't it? Oh, and when calamity strikes there are always some people looting and others that try to take advantage of the situation for personal gain. So what's the answer? Have the police force shoot the looters, and then throw the white-collar criminals that are trying to con people into some country club prison? It's all like a bucket of snot with more slippery stuff in it. But, some religion is probably better than religion... except each keeps the other in check. So maybe, we need them both.

 

[Shad]

The answer may be a resounding "No" for many of us for all sorts of reasons.

The Baha'i Faith teaches that religion should be like a healing medicine causing love and unity between peoples. If it does the opposite and causes estrangement and hatred, then that religion is no religion. Instead of being a healing medicine it is a deadly poison. It is noble and a truly religious act in the sight of God to leave such a religion.

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth; it should give birth to spirituality, and bring light and life to every soul. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division it would be better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure, but if the remedy only aggravates the complaint, it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 158-160

So at what point do you believe religion is harmful and at what point if at all should be abandon religion?

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated as always.

I look at it based on the individual thus case by case not as a whole. Specific interpretations of religion can be abandoned when found to be wanting or problematic without abandoning religion completely. Likewise someone may find comfort and support in other views. X person religion maybe better for them than no religion. Likewise for a different person no religion could be better.

Beside I believe some people need religion. Also I do not think religion will disappear anytime soon nor do I think it is practical to have such a goal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hey Tony, Many times Baha'is have said, usually to Old Badger, that they are not going to dominate and rule the world, even if they are in the majority. So, there will still be people with other religious beliefs, some probably opposed to Baha'i beliefs. There will be people that don't believe in religions, and therefore, oppose the Baha'is. And, the Baha'is won't be running the governments? How will that work to bring peace? The only people bound by the "peace" producing laws of the Baha'i Faith will be Baha'is. Everybody that is not a Baha'i can do things that aren't in line with Baha'i teachings, therefore, go against "God's" plan. Like drink alcoholic beverages, smoke pot and take other drugs, listen to suggestive music performed by scantily clad singers. And, speaking of scantily clad, people will still be going to see people dance with little or no clothing.

So, unless Baha'i do enforce their laws on everyone, some people will continue to do things considered immoral and illegal by the Baha'is. And that's not to mention that people within the Baha'i Faith won't get corrupted and do immoral and illegal things once in a while themselves. So where's the peace? It's still going to have to be forced upon some people for the greater good of all isn't it? Oh, and when calamity strikes there are always some people looting and others that try to take advantage of the situation for personal gain. So what's the answer? Have the police force shoot the looters, and then throw the white-collar criminals that are trying to con people into some country club prison? It's all like a bucket of snot with more slippery stuff in it. But, some religion is probably better than religion... except each keeps the other in check. So maybe, we need them both.

I guess CG after all these discussion you too will wait to find out how it will work.

Scince I have been a Baha'i I have never had the Universal House of justice stop me from making my choices. I have asked them for a decision. I have asked National and Local bodies for a decision but never had them direct my life, even if they could have.

Baha'u'llah has said and we have said many times, Baha'u'llah came to mold our hearts and souls together in unity, not for the rule of this world. That is Gods Kingdom on earth, not mans rule.

Baha'u'llah has endorsed monarchs and people rule.

So I see what will now happen is the calamity that has been foretold and out of the dust of a broken humanity, a world built anew will based on this elixer for mankind.

Sorry I am very busy well into early next year, working 12hr plus days now.

I will give prayers for you an all in December at the Holy Shrines. Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hey Tony, Many times Baha'is have said, usually to Old Badger, that they are not going to dominate and rule the world, even if they are in the majority. So, there will still be people with other religious beliefs, some probably opposed to Baha'i beliefs. There will be people that don't believe in religions, and therefore, oppose the Baha'is. And, the Baha'is won't be running the governments? How will that work to bring peace? The only people bound by the "peace" producing laws of the Baha'i Faith will be Baha'is. Everybody that is not a Baha'i can do things that aren't in line with Baha'i teachings, therefore, go against "God's" plan. Like drink alcoholic beverages, smoke pot and take other drugs, listen to suggestive music performed by scantily clad singers. And, speaking of scantily clad, people will still be going to see people dance with little or no clothing.

So, unless Baha'i do enforce their laws on everyone, some people will continue to do things considered immoral and illegal by the Baha'is. And that's not to mention that people within the Baha'i Faith won't get corrupted and do immoral and illegal things once in a while themselves. So where's the peace? It's still going to have to be forced upon some people for the greater good of all isn't it? Oh, and when calamity strikes there are always some people looting and others that try to take advantage of the situation for personal gain. So what's the answer? Have the police force shoot the looters, and then throw the white-collar criminals that are trying to con people into some country club prison? It's all like a bucket of snot with more slippery stuff in it. But, some religion is probably better than religion... except each keeps the other in check. So maybe, we need them both.

I think there has been a lot of fear mongering. Baha’i world state, Baha’i police force, Orwellian style government.

As I understand it, when a country achieves a majority of Baha’is that country may decide (for example by referendum) to adopt a Baha’i model of government. What exactly that looks like and it’s implications for everyone including those that are not Baha’i will be made clear to enable an informed decision to be made by everyone. To me it’s unthinkable to have a system that didn’t treat people equally and fairly regardless of their faith. If it was an unworkable model then it would be clear for other countries to see.