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Is original sin inherited?

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Basically, our ancestors started a vendetta with God. But since humans generally don't desire to deliberate displease God, isn't the vendetta mostly on God's part?

Original sin means God rejecting us because our ancestors displeased him?


What vendetta? And who said God is rejecting us? That's not what original sin entails. It entails only that humanity's natural state is one of distrust, suspicion, antipathy or indifference toward God. Thought of the other way, our natural state is one of autonomy. If that's our attitude, it's no wonder that we don't enjoy the benefits we would otherwise enjoy of a faithful, obedient relationship. We are in this natural state because our first parents put us there.

Allow me to re-emphasize because it appears necessary: This is not to say that we are culpable for our first parents' misdoings. We will not be held accountable for them.

There's a way out of this state if we're interested. But getting out of it will depend crucially (no pun intended) on God's initiative, which he is constantly taking.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What vendetta? And who said God is rejecting us? That's not what original sin entails. It entails only that humanity's natural state is one of distrust, suspicion, antipathy or indifference toward God. Thought of the other way, our natural state is one of autonomy. If that's our attitude, it's no wonder that we don't enjoy the benefits we would otherwise enjoy of a faithful, obedient relationship. We are in this natural state because our first parents put us there.
Allow me to re-emphasize because it appears necessary: This is not to say that we are culpable for our first parents' misdoings. We will not be held accountable for them.
There's a way out of this state if we're interested. But getting out of it will depend crucially (no pun intended) on God's initiative, which he is constantly taking.

Isn't it more like an 'un-natural' state that we are in?

Adam's 'original natural state' was one of healthy and sound human perfection of mind and body with eternal life in view or forever ahead of him.

Doesn't Acts (17:27) say we should seek God.....because he is not far off from every one of us. Isn't God just a prayer away?

The noble-minded people of Acts (17:11) took it upon themselves to search or research Scripture daily to see if what they heard was in Scripture.

Doesn't Isaiah (55:6,7) say to seek God while he many be found.......?

Doesn't Deut. (4:29) say we are to seek God with all our heart and soul?

Doesn't Zeph. (2:3) mention all should be seeking God........?

1st Tim 2:1-6 mentions God is concerned for all men, Jesus being the mediator between God and men. Jesus is the go-between that leads us to his Heavenly Father.

James (4:8) wrote to take the initiative to: draw close to God and then God will draw close to you....
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
Originally Posted by Dunemeister
It entails only that humanity's natural state is one of distrust, suspicion, antipathy or indifference toward God.

Interesting, that is the complete opposite of the Creationist sayings I seen in this forum. They say it is a NATURAL state to believe in god and I am a sick/demented/evil/liar person and that is why I do not accept god... Your take on it is that we are naturally atheist and then FIND god, correct?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Interesting, that is the complete opposite of the Creationist sayings I seen in this forum. They say it is a NATURAL state to believe in god and I am a sick/demented/evil/liar person and that is why I do not accept god... Your take on it is that we are naturally atheist and then FIND god, correct?

Not exactly. We can only bear antipathy toward God if we, on some level, actually acknowledge somewhere in our subconscious (if not our conscious mind) that God in fact exists. The effect of the fall is that instead of embracing this knowledge with joy, we resent and fear it. As a result, we tell ourselves all kinds of cockamamie stories to explain away or modify our knowledge of God. Our cockamamie stories include all attempts to rationalize away God's existence or to diminish or tame him.

If you like, you can think of it this way. Our original natural state was one of joyful faith in God. Original sin is the loss of that natural state and a devolution to a new natural state. You can substitute "normal" for "natural" if it's less vague or ambiguous for you. Nothing much hangs on the choice of adjective.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
But that doesn't explain anything. Why is that our natural state?

Fair comment. That's our natural state because that's the state our original parents put us in. As our representative head, Adam defied God and lost paradise. As a result, we are born out of paradise, and living in that condition has consequences, namely sin and death.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Isn't it more like an 'un-natural' state that we are in?

You could say that. See my reply to Gabethewiking earlier on.

Adam's 'original natural state' was one of healthy and sound human perfection of mind and body with eternal life in view or forever ahead of him.

No, and again no. Adam was not "perfect." He was innocent. Not the same thing.

Doesn't Acts (17:27) say we should seek God.....because he is not far off from every one of us. Isn't God just a prayer away?

The noble-minded people of Acts (17:11) took it upon themselves to search or research Scripture daily to see if what they heard was in Scripture.

Doesn't Isaiah (55:6,7) say to seek God while he many be found.......?

Doesn't Deut. (4:29) say we are to seek God with all our heart and soul?

Doesn't Zeph. (2:3) mention all should be seeking God........?

1st Tim 2:1-6 mentions God is concerned for all men, Jesus being the mediator between God and men. Jesus is the go-between that leads us to his Heavenly Father.

James (4:8) wrote to take the initiative to: draw close to God and then God will draw close to you....

What is all this supposed to prove? How is it relevant to the topic of the thread?
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
Not exactly. We can only bear antipathy toward God if we, on some level, actually acknowledge somewhere in our subconscious (if not our conscious mind) that God in fact exists. The effect of the fall is that instead of embracing this knowledge with joy, we resent and fear it. As a result, we tell ourselves all kinds of cockamamie stories to explain away or modify our knowledge of God. Our cockamamie stories include all attempts to rationalize away God's existence or to diminish or tame him.

If you like, you can think of it this way. Our original natural state was one of joyful faith in God. Original sin is the loss of that natural state and a devolution to a new natural state. You can substitute "normal" for "natural" if it's less vague or ambiguous for you. Nothing much hangs on the choice of adjective.

I see. Using myself as an example, I never believed in any gods or fairies or such things because no evidence for such has been provided whiles the natural world as well as world history has shown me where these beliefs comes from.

How do people like me fit into this as I show no "antipathy" towards this god as I see no evidence for such a thing just as I show no "antipathy" for fairies. I also do not fear any gods or the belief of gods and so on. Whats your view on people like me?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I see. Using myself as an example, I never believed in any gods or fairies or such things because no evidence for such has been provided whiles the natural world as well as world history has shown me where these beliefs comes from.

How do people like me fit into this as I show no "antipathy" towards this god as I see no evidence for such a thing just as I show no "antipathy" for fairies. I also do not fear any gods or the belief of gods and so on. Whats your view on people like me?

The antipathy is subconscious. You don't see the evidence as pointing to God because, deep down, you don't want it to. Gotta love Freud!
 

johnhanks

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Gabethewiking
I see. Using myself as an example, I never believed in any gods or fairies or such things because no evidence for such has been provided whiles the natural world as well as world history has shown me where these beliefs comes from.

How do people like me fit into this as I show no "antipathy" towards this god as I see no evidence for such a thing just as I show no "antipathy" for fairies. I also do not fear any gods or the belief of gods and so on. Whats your view on people like me?
The antipathy is subconscious. You don't see the evidence as pointing to God because, deep down, you don't want it to. Gotta love Freud!
Gabe, Gabe, when are you going to realise? Dunemeister knows what's going on in your head far better than you do...
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
The antipathy is subconscious. You don't see the evidence as pointing to God because, deep down, you don't want it to. Gotta love Freud!

I see, and what is this evidence for god then, that you claim I ignore (subconsciously) and why do evidence based knowledge, such as the history of religions and human psychology show us how and why religious afairs came to be?

Actually, let me take it a bit further, the evidence that I subconsciously ignore seems to be something like you denying that the world is flat, simple ignoring the facts that is all around us (subconsciously) and refuse to accept the truth and want to believe in round-word theory instead, how would this differ from your claim above?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
I see, and what is this evidence for god then, that you claim I ignore (subconsciously) and why do evidence based knowledge, such as the history of religions and human psychology show us how and why religious afairs came to be?

There's plenty of arguments available, but those arguments are not (or should not) be the basis for any belief in God. It's more like people simply refuse to acknowledge what their innermost selves acknowedges as true. It doesn't boil down to evidence but to attitude.

Actually, let me take it a bit further, the evidence that I subconsciously ignore seems to be something like you denying that the world is flat, simple ignoring the facts that is all around us (subconsciously) and refuse to accept the truth and want to believe in round-word theory instead, how would this differ from your claim above?

It's a point of faith. I don't believe it based on any particular evidence, either in general (I'm no psychologist) or in particular (I don't know you). I believe it because a religious book I adhere to says so, and the Holy Spirit affirms the truth of it. So NYAH! :)
 
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Gabethewiking

Active Member
There's plenty of arguments available, but those arguments are not (or should not) be the basis for any belief in God. It's more like people simply refuse to acknowledge what their innermost selves acknowedges as true. It doesn't boil down to evidence but to attitude.
But you claimed it was denial (subconsciously) of gods existence, now yuu say its attitude, thats pretty big difference and your response further down continues this line.

It's a point of faith. I don't believe it based on any particular evidence, either in general (I'm no psychologist) or in particular (I don't know you). I believe it because a religious book I adhere to says so, and the Holy Spirit affirms the truth of it. So NYAH! :)
So you will retract your previous claim that I do not accept the existence of god because I, subconsciously, do not want to see the evidence and not want to believe?


I hope you see that you seem to have changed your stance, first you told me that I denied/would not accept evidence because I subconsciously do not want to accept the existene of this god, but now you said that it is an attitude and your faith, you do realize the difference?

At the same time, see the contrast here, you accept your belief because a book says so and deny facts whiles I accept facts presented based on the evidence provided, any evidence presented for gods and I would accept gods whiles no evidence for such a thing as well as fairies and other magical creatures would be considered invalid and irrelevant as no basis for such beleifs exist.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
There's plenty of arguments available, but those arguments are not (or should not) be the basis for any belief in God. It's more like people simply refuse to acknowledge what their innermost selves acknowedges as true. It doesn't boil down to evidence but to attitude.
That's hardly a fair claim. I could just as easily and justifiably claim that theists simply refuse to acknowledge the innermost truth that they know God doesn't exist.

All things should boil down to evidence and logic, or else what's the point? If you're going to forgo reason and logic then you might as well choose to believe that God is a giant fairy cake, air is made of marshmellow and the sky is the lid of the world (which is a giant teapot). The only thing in all of human history which seems to refuse, deny or downplay the necessity of evidence is religious belief, and to my knowledge nobody has ever been able to justify why. We use evidence to make educated claims about everything else in the world, so why should religion be exempt from that logic? Do religious people seriously not care whether their beliefs are true or not? Is it really fair to grant people exemption from logic for the sake of preserving their fiction of choice?

It's a point of faith. I don't believe it based on any particular evidence, either in general (I'm no psychologist) or in particular (I don't know you). I believe it because a religious book I adhere to says so, and the Holy Spirit affirms the truth of it. So NYAH! :)
So, in other words, you believe it based on no evidence whatsoever. No matter what way you try to put it, that is not a good thing.

You ever pick up a Harry Potter book and decided you wanted Hogwarts to exist - so you choose to believe it does?
 

Gabethewiking

Active Member
You ever pick up a Harry Potter book and decided you wanted Hogwarts to exist - so you choose to believe it does?

That is just silly.
We know for a fact that the writer of Harry Potter exist, her name is Joanne Murray and using the knowledge of her existence we can extrapolate that Hogwarts exist, whatever or not you can find it or not is a moot point. QED.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
But you claimed it was denial (subconsciously) of gods existence, now yuu say its attitude, thats pretty big difference and your response further down continues this line.

The denial arises out of an attitude of indifference or antipathy. The statements are actually consistent, so the answer is a qualified no to your subsequent question, namely:

So you will retract your previous claim that I do not accept the existence of god because I, subconsciously, do not want to see the evidence and not want to believe?

For the Christian claim (which I happen to accept) is that the human race writ large has a capacity to know God. That capacity has been compromised by our fallen state, a state characterized by antipathy or indifference toward God. My qualification to my previous statement is that since the claim applies to the human race generally (and probably extends to "cultures" -- however you wish to parse those out), it's possible that there are local exceptions. That is, it's possible that some people's fallen condition is so complete that they no longer even have the capacity to recognize God were he to show up on their doorstep. Nevertheless, my original claim, which is that human beings by nature have the capacity to know God but that capacity has been compromised to varying degrees by our fallen state, stands.

I hope you see that you seem to have changed your stance, first you told me that I denied/would not accept evidence because I subconsciously do not want to accept the existene of this god, but now you said that it is an attitude and your faith, you do realize the difference?

A subconscious desire not to know is (roughly) equivalent to an attitude of defiance, so no, I don't see any substantial difference.

At the same time, see the contrast here, you accept your belief because a book says so and deny facts whiles I accept facts presented based on the evidence provided, any evidence presented for gods and I would accept gods whiles no evidence for such a thing as well as fairies and other magical creatures would be considered invalid and irrelevant as no basis for such beleifs exist.

I accept my belief on the testimony of scripture AND of God. God Himself testifies to the truth of what is written in scripture. Testimony is a valid means of knowing, particularly if the testifier is trustworthy. I take it the Holy Spirit is trustworthy.

If you don't accept anything as "evidence" unless it's forensic, you are subjecting yourself to a cognitively crippling epistemological theory. Take my knowing that my name is David. I knew that long before I saw any documentation (which I only saw firsthand in my early 20s). I knew it because my parents called me by that name all the time. I take it that my parents knew my name and that they weren't lying to me. It's possible I'm wrong. They may have played tricks with me my whole life. But I don't think so. I'd say that I had more than a firm belief what my name was. I knew my name when I was little more than five months old, even before I acquired language. What was my "evidence"? I didn't have any. But it would be absurd to think I didn't know my name. (If you wish to quibble about my age when I knew, let's put it to one year old, still well before the aquisition of language and long before I could have had any "evidence" for the truth that my name was David).
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
So, in other words, you believe it based on no evidence whatsoever. No matter what way you try to put it, that is not a good thing.

Well, I believe it on the basis of testimony from a source I take to be reliable (the bible) AND by a process I take to be reliable, namely the witness of God Himself to the truth of the theology the bible expresses. I take it that God isn't a liar. At least, I've found him reliable so far, and my religious community says likewise.

However, this whole discussion about epistemology is beside the point of this thread. If you are seriously interested in religious epistemology, I'm game for a discussion. Why don't you start one up?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Fair comment. That's our natural state because that's the state our original parents put us in. As our representative head, Adam defied God and lost paradise. As a result, we are born out of paradise, and living in that condition has consequences, namely sin and death.
I think you're shifting blame. Genesis doesn't record that Adam and Eve voluntarily left Eden because they felt really guilty; they were kicked out by God.

The antipathy is subconscious. You don't see the evidence as pointing to God because, deep down, you don't want it to. Gotta love Freud!
Deep down, I don't want my chequing account balance to be limited, but I still haven't made any attempt to trade in my 13-year-old minivan for an Aston Martin.
 
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