Is owning Guns good or bad?

[jmaster78]

there are still alot of people saying things like 'i own swords but would never use them' or 'i own a gun but would never use it unless in defence'. i have repeated pointed out that you may be sensible, but your not everyone else. i am bored repeating valid points and them being ignored because all some people can do is nit pick the smaller points. i am finished with this thread. i will leave by saying this,

to many people there are positive sides to guns, hunting,defence etc, and to other people they are negative, murder, injury, threat etc, until someone who agrees with guns is shot or has a family member shot, then they will never see the negative side of guns. and someone like myself who has witnessed the negative side of guns will never appreciate the other view. end of.

 

[SoyLeche]

yes but now he has two ways of killing you, or he can sell the gun to someone who might use it, one more illegal gun in circulation.

No, it's one more legal gun in a criminal's hands. I just realized that you've been misusing the term illegal a lot.

 

[lilithu]

He's still probably more likely to kill someone with the car than he is with the gun...

To be fair, if he intends to kill someone, he's more likely to use the gun than the car. I'm with you on gun rights etc but let's not go overboard and forget what a gun is made for, as opposed to a car.

 

[SoyLeche]

To be fair, if he intends to kill someone, he's more likely to use the gun than the car. I'm with you on gun rights etc but let's not go overboard and forget what a gun is made for, as opposed to a car.

If he intends to kill someone, he's most likely already got a gun, and mine would just be an extra.

I would imagine that he would end up driving the car rather recklessly after stealing it. I don't have anything to back that up though.

I agree, though that leaving a gun in the glove compartment is a bad idea in general.

 

[michel]

That is part of the problem, yes, not just for gun ownership but our society in general. But there are also a lot of responsible gun owners and they should not be maligned just because some are irresponsible.

Not being awkward, Lilithu, but whilst I understand your comment about "responsible gun ownwers"......why shoud people want to own a gun ?

 

[SoyLeche]

Not being awkward, Lilithu, but whilst I understand your comment about "responsible gun ownwers"......why shoud people want to own a gun ?

Many reasons have already been given:

Hunting
Protection
Sport
They just like them
...

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Do Americans freak out when they come to Europe and can't bring their guns with them?
Do they go around in fear of their lives because they can not shoot back?

Most shootings is done in Europe to Fellow criminals.
Most shooting is done in America with domestic owned guns.

Very few shootings are done by police in Europe and when there is one there is a court case and an outcry.
Shootings by police in the USA is very common. and rarely makes headlines.

Criminals shoot very few civilians in Europe. they carry Guns for use against each other.
Civilians are in general not allowed Guns in Europe and don't want to.
Why do Americans feel the need to, when it causes so many of their fellows deaths.

 

[michel]

Do Americans freak out when they come to Europe and can't bring their guns with them?
Do they go around in fear of their lives because they can not shoot back?

Most shootings is done in Europe to Fellow criminals.
Most shooting is done in America with domestic owned guns.

Very few shootings are done by police in Europe and when there is one there is a court case and an outcry.
Shootings by police in the USA is very common. and rarely makes headlines.

Criminals shoot very few civilians in Europe. they carry Guns for use against each other.
Civilians are in general not allowed Guns in Europe and don't want to.
Why do Americans feel the need to, when it causes so many of their fellows deaths.

Here here!:clap I know our views will not be acceptable to those to whom they are addressed.

The only conclusion I can come to is that the (very obviously) necessary need of weapons during the establishment and formation of the US for some reason was allowed to contibue into the present day.

 

[SoyLeche]

Do Americans freak out when they come to Europe and can't bring their guns with them?
Do they go around in fear of their lives because they can not shoot back?

Most shootings is done in Europe to Fellow criminals.
Most shooting is done in America with domestic owned guns.

Very few shootings are done by police in Europe and when there is one there is a court case and an outcry.
Shootings by police in the USA is very common. and rarely makes headlines.

Criminals shoot very few civilians in Europe. they carry Guns for use against each other.
Civilians are in general not allowed Guns in Europe and don't want to.
Why do Americans feel the need to, when it causes so many of their fellows deaths.

Just curious - do you have data to back up your claims? I don't doubt them, but I'd like to see the numbers if they are available.

 

[SoyLeche]

The only conclusion I can come to is that the (very obviously) necessary need of weapons during the establishment and formation of the US for some reason was allowed to contibue into the present day.

I would say that has a lot to do with it. That, and in America we don't have the quite the ingrained mentality of submitting to governmental authority (we've never been subject to a King in our society, for example). We put more trust in ourselves than we do in our government. That is slowly changing though.

 

[lilithu]

Do Americans freak out when they come to Europe and can't bring their guns with them?
Do they go around in fear of their lives because they can not shoot back?

Jeez louise, what do you think we are, the Wild West??! What weird, crazy stereotypes are you getting about Americans from your news?

Yes, America has a stronger gun culture than Europe. But the vast majority of us do not walk around with guns. This argument is not so much a matter of Americans wanting to shoot people more than Britons do, it's a difference in our sense of self-determination. As SoyLeche said, you guys seem to trust your government more. We trust ourselves more. I don't own a gun. I don't want to own a gun. But don't you be telling me that I can't own a gun. I see no rational reason here for you or the govt to be impinging upon my liberty.

Whereas, from some of the posts I've seen from you guys across the pond, I get the impression that you don't trust yourselves very much. I mean, jmaster saying in one post that if you own a knife you're probably going to use it even if you think you won't. My first reaction to that was, what, have you got no self-control?? And you think we're the ones who live in fear?? Yes, it's true that sometimes people lose it and they use a gun out of anger that they obviously wouldn't have used if it weren't there. But that happens very rarely compared to the many other people who have guns and don't do that.

I do not understand this impulse to take away the rights/liberties of everyone just because a few people are irresponsible. I still have faith in the inherent goodness and reasonableness of people and do not feel the need to legislate and control them in order to protect them from themselves. That's so patronizing.

Very few shootings are done by police in Europe and when there is one there is a court case and an outcry.

And British police can't even protect themselves when they need to.

Shootings by police in the USA is very common. and rarely makes headlines.

Not true. Again, I think you have a distorted view of the U.S. They happen more often than they should, especially shootings of people of color. That's more of a race issue than a gun issue. But you seem to think this happens constantly.

 

[standing_alone]

Do Americans freak out when they come to Europe and can't bring their guns with them?
Do they go around in fear of their lives because they can not shoot back?

Oh please.

Contrary to whatever nonesense source from which you get your stereotypes of Americans, most Americans don't go around carrying guns everywhere or are living in fear of one another. Most of the Americans I know own guns for hunting and sport shooting, not for protection. These guns are left in gun cabinets and are only taken out for their intended use, be it hunting or sport shooting. Of course, I live in a state that doesn't allow concealed-carry, so people aren't carrying guns on them. I don't know this all translates to the wider population (with variations in state laws and how popular hunting/sport shooting is in other states - in Wisconsin, it's very popular), but your idea that Americans carry guns because they live in a state of fear and own them for a sense of protection is pure nonesense, at least in my region of the United States. If any populace is living in fear, it is that of the UK, that can't even trust its own citizens enough to own guns, so it has to remove them from society.

 

[evearael]

This decrease in crime is what the author of Freakonomics was trying to explain. Gun laws had little to nothing to do with it.

*Nods* That was part of my point; I should have been more clear. I'm going to have to read that book. With over 200 million guns in circulation and 300 million people, I would be expecting mindless slaughter left and right if firearms were such a massive issue.... but that simply isn't the case. There are hotbeds of violence in certain areas, but the firearms aren't the cause of it. Treat the actual problems in these areas, not a tool utilized in expressing the symptoms. That is the most effective way of reducing crime, violent or otherwise. A violent, desperate neighborhood without any firearms is still a violent desperate neighborhood and that is unacceptible.

Forgive me if some has already made this point, but America is a huge country in the middle of a continent with long pourous borders to the north and south. Ireland is an island, as is the UK, so smuggling would be a lot more difficult there than here because it would be limited to sea and air.

 

[standing_alone]

There are hotbeds of violence in certain areas, but the firearms aren't the cause of it. Treat the actual problems in these areas, not a tool utilized in expressing the symptoms. That is the most effective way of reducing crime, violent or otherwise. A violent, desperate neighborhood without any firearms is still a violent desperate neighborhood and that is unacceptible.

:clap Precisely!

 

[Quoth The Raven]

there are still alot of people saying things like 'i own swords but would never use them' or 'i own a gun but would never use it unless in defence'. i have repeated pointed out that you may be sensible, but your not everyone else. i am bored repeating valid points and them being ignored because all some people can do is nit pick the smaller points. i am finished with this thread. i will leave by saying this,

to many people there are positive sides to guns, hunting,defence etc, and to other people they are negative, murder, injury, threat etc, until someone who agrees with guns is shot or has a family member shot, then they will never see the negative side of guns. and someone like myself who has witnessed the negative side of guns will never appreciate the other view. end of.

And we've repeatedly pointed out that there are people who shouldn't own weapons but do and they're not everyone else, and according to you, it all comes down to the weapons. You're position is as nonsensical as you accuse ours of being when it comes down to it.
I can understand given where you live and what you've seen that you may have issue with guns, but do you honestly and wholeheartedly believe that the guns were the real problem there? That the type of people who consider it a fair deal to plant nail bombs in a stable full of police horses will have any problem in coming up with ways to kill people without using guns? It's like saying taking away the guns from radical Islamic groups will stop suicide bomings. You can't use the doings of terrorists to judge the populace.
I can also understand that you have a bias because of your father, but once again, he presumaby chose to be a police officer, and with that sort of job should come the knowledge - assuming you've actually thought it through - that you're doing something that may bring you to a place where you're injured or killed during the course of that job. You personally may or may not accept that, but the simple fact is,he wasn't something safe like a florist or a chef mate, he was a copper. Policing is a dangerous job by it's nature...the guys that were injured when someone planted a bomb at one of our major police stations a few years back sure as hell didn't need a gun carrying populace to get injured. In fact, I've got a feeling - though I'll have to check it out - that there have been as many or more police killed in this state through explosives than through firearms.
You've already said you wouldn't legislate against ownership of items with what you see as a 'legitimate' use, so I guess as long as there's gardeners and people who drive diesel cars, we'd best all live in fear of our lives.

 

[Radio Frequency X]

Not being awkward, Lilithu, but whilst I understand your comment about "responsible gun ownwers"......why shoud people want to own a gun ?

Some people want to protect their family. Some people want to hunt. Some people just want it "just in case". There are all kinds of reasons to own a gun. some people owns knives, some people own swords, some people own axes, some people own bows and arrows. None of these weapons are evil. I don't own a gun because I don't need one, but if I felt I needed one, I'd want the freedom to buy it. I just don't understand what people are so scared of.

 

[SoyLeche]

I just don't understand what people are so scared of.

A small, hot ball of metal ripping through their intestines, I think

 

[Reverend Rick]

Guns are a fact of life. They are not going anywhere. No legislation will remove them. They are no different than any other tool. In the hands of the wrong people, anything is dangerous. Guns don't scare me, people who want to harm one another do.

 

[lilithu]

Not being awkward, Lilithu, but whilst I understand your comment about "responsible gun ownwers"......why shoud people want to own a gun ?

When I was a kid and my father owned a fish farm, he taught me how to shoot a rifle and I thought it was fun. I got quite good at shooting tin cans and such off fence posts. I can see why someone would like hunting, target practice, or just guns.

Having said that, it doesn't matter whether or not you or I can understand why someone would want to own a gun. It's not the case that someone else's liberty is dependant upon whether or not we can understand or empathize. I don't understand why anyone would want to listen to Shania Twain. That doesn't mean that people should need my approval or understanding to own her albumns.

In the U.S. at least, it isn't the case that people have to explain why they should have the right to do something. Rather the burden is on the other side, if you want to take away someone's liberty, you have to explain why there is a compelling reason to do so.

 

[PureX]

In the U.S. at least, it isn't the case that people have to explain why they should have the right to do something. Rather the burden is on the other side, if you want to take away someone's liberty, you have to explain why there is a compelling reason to do so.

Do blind people have the right to drive cars?