Is owning Guns good or bad?

[jmaster78]

What Soy Leche said.


Why in the world would you think that gang members with long criminal records have trouble getting guns? They didn't buy them legally in the first place before they got the criminal record. Why would they be trying to buy them legally after the criminal record? I'm not trying to be mean, but it seriously boggles my mind that you think making something illegal will make it harder for criminals to get it. They're not playing by the rules. That's why they're considered criminals.

I think my point was exactly that, they didn't get the guns legally. It boggles my mind that you can't grasp the simple concept i'm trying to explain. To make it as simple as possible; remove all legal and illegal guns and it will be much harder for criminals to get their hands on them. but while americans continue to buy guns they will continue to fall into the wrong hands. is it really that dificult?

 

[lilithu]

I think my point was exactly that, they didn't get the guns legally. It boggles my mind that you can't grasp the simple concept i'm trying to explain. To make it as simple as possible; remove all legal and illegal guns and it will be much harder for criminals to get their hands on them. but while americans continue to buy guns they will continue to fall into the wrong hands. is it really that dificult?

You have been arguing that we should remove all legal guns. I have been asking you what you propose to do about the illegal guns. For some reason, you seem to think that the illegal guns come primarily from the legal guns. That is the "simple concept" that I am disputing. :sarcastic Show me evidence of that.

 

[YmirGF]

Yes, but none of these options are even remotely as easy, fast, and effective as a simple hand gun.

(Brilliant post snipped for brevity.)

This STILL will not stop some of them from getting a gun and using it to commit a crime. But it will certainly cut down on the numbers of idiots who do this, and there will be a whole lot of well armed and trained citizens out there who know exactly how to deal with them when they do.

You have summed up my opinions on this matter perfectly PureX. Enjoy the frubals.

I too, am not against guns, per se, but agree that it should be much tougher to get a gun. I am thinking that due to the changes that can occur psychologically within any given individual in light of unforeseen circumstances, this testing should be done annually. Sure, it would be a bit of a hassle, but it is a small price to pay to ensure that those who carry weapons are FIT to carry them.

I also agree that if laws were passed that have extremely severe penalties for carrying out a crime with a gun so that even the utter idiots might just think twice before doing so. Otoh, police currently have the right to "shoot to kill" anyone brandishing a weapon who does not obey their direct orders to disarm. Maybe something like penalties following a standard jail term are served of 10,000 hours of community service is in order. In theory, one could be compelled to do community service for the rest of their natural lives. Perhaps at some point they just might realize it is far more satisfying to help people than it is to try to hurt them.

Aside from that, I certainly don't have the answers.

 

[jonny]

I will avoid the hunting issue as i have a supermarket near by, and my idea of fun doesn't involve shooting a mother deer and leaving her young doe to starve to death.

Good news - hunting season is in the fall, not the spring, and in Utah doe hunting is pretty rare.

Management recommendations for Utah's mule deer are directly by the objectives in the Mule Deer Management Plan. The plan sets a population (quantity) objective for a total of 412,000 deer statewide by 2011. The plan also outlines a buck-to-doe ratio (quality) objective that guides the number of bucks (males) versus does (females, or antlerless deer). In most areas of the state, we're managing the herds so the ratio of bucks per 100 does is a minimum of 15 bucks per 100 does when the hunting seasons end in the fall.

To achieve those objectives, there are two types of deer hunts each year. The Utah Wildlife Board, with recommendations from division biologists, sets the number of permits for each of these hunts each year.

The buck-hunting season helps achieve the desired buck-to-doe ratio, while the anterless hunt moves the deer herds toward the total population objective. The reason two hunts are needed is tied to deer biology.

Bucks typically make up less than 15 percent of the total population. Since only five bucks per 100 does are needed to successfully breed all of the 100 does, the number of bucks in the population has little effect on the number of fawns born the next year. Even if half of the bucks in a population were harvested, for example, the total population would only be reduced by 5 to 10 percent.

So even when a total deer population is below objective, and we want that population to grow, we can continue to provide hunting opportunity for the "surplus" bucks in the population with little effect on the growth of the deer herd. For this reason, the buck-hunting season helps us adjust the buck-to-doe ratio, but does not have a major impact on the total population.

The anterless hunt produces a different result. When a doe is taken, both doe and the fawns she would have had in the future are removed for the population, which is a much bigger effect on the total population. For this reason, antlerless hunts are designed to get the total population to our objective.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/index.php

 

[jmaster78]

You have been arguing that we should remove all legal guns. I have been asking you what you propose to do about the illegal guns. For some reason, you seem to think that the illegal guns come primarily from the legal guns. That is the "simple concept" that I am disputing. :sarcastic Show me evidence of that.

I doubt the gun manufacturers have two packing boxes at the end of the assembly line, one for guns going to legit gunsmiths and one going to non legit gunsmiths. All the guns are legally made in the factory, legally sold to the gunsmiths, legally sold to the citizen(minus criminal record) and at some point after that the gun arrives at the criminal. As i said before, todays legal gun is tomorrows illegal gun. remove the legal gun today and you don't have an illegal gun tomorrow. If this had been done say 10 or 20 years ago there would be alot less illegal guns today. Now you could say 'no point in saying what should have been done 10 or 20 years ago.' but if you take this course of action today then in 10 or 20 years time you will have achieved a safer america.

 

[SoyLeche]

I think my point was exactly that, they didn't get the guns legally. It boggles my mind that you can't grasp the simple concept i'm trying to explain. To make it as simple as possible; remove all legal and illegal guns and it will be much harder for criminals to get their hands on them. but while americans continue to buy guns they will continue to fall into the wrong hands. is it really that dificult?

There is one problem with your idea - IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO REMOVE ALL ILLEGAL GUNS.

 

[SoyLeche]

I doubt the gun manufacturers have two packing boxes at the end of the assembly line, one for guns going to legit gunsmiths and one going to non legit gunsmiths. All the guns are legally made in the factory, legally sold to the gunsmiths, legally sold to the citizen(minus criminal record) and at some point after that the gun arrives at the criminal. As i said before, todays legal gun is tomorrows illegal gun. remove the legal gun today and you don't have an illegal gun tomorrow. If this had been done say 10 or 20 years ago there would be alot less illegal guns today. Now you could say 'no point in saying what should have been done 10 or 20 years ago.' but if you take this course of action today then in 10 or 20 years time you will have achieved a safer america.

Actually, if we had done this 10 or 20 years ago we would have a lot more illegal guns brought over international borders then we do. That's the only real difference we would have.

 

[jonny]

Swiss concealed-handgun owners are required to have a permit and have to demonstrate to the authorities that they needed a weapon to protect themselves or others against a precise danger. (where as in america you can carry a gun 'just incase.')

You can't carry it concealed "just in case." If you are going to carry a gun without a concealed permit there are strict laws about how it can be carried. I know, for instance, that it has to be carried on your hip so that it can be seen from the front and back. Also, it cannot be loaded (the law regarding this is different in each state).

Swiss Militia must keep their weapon at home (not in the glove box or handbag for sporadic use or be stolen)

Again, you cannot carry a loaded weapon in your car without a concealed permit. It has to be three steps away from being fired in Utah, for example.

Swiss militia have their weapons and ammo inspected regularly. so it is all accounted for.

Weapons in the United States all have numbers on them and can be traced back the the person who purchased it. The government doesn't inspect our guns, but they can account for the owner of a gun.

Swiss militia must purchase their own personal ammo from a shooting range and must use it up at the range.

Yeah. We can get our ammo at Wal-mart. Thank goodness.

Swiss know that Hollywood films should not be used as templets for real life.
Swiss place a higher value on life.

As opposed to Americans...B.S. Perhaps someone from Northern Ireland should think twice about lecturing Americans on valuing life. Contrary to your belief, people are not dying left and right from gun wounds.

Yes you are allowed razor sharp knives in your kitchen, IN YOUR KITCHEN, not in a houlster under your arm.

I carry a knife at all times in my pocket. I don't need a holster - it has a nice clip.

 

[lilithu]

I doubt the gun manufacturers have two packing boxes at the end of the assembly line, one for guns going to legit gunsmiths and one going to non legit gunsmiths. All the guns are legally made in the factory, legally sold to the gunsmiths, legally sold to the citizen(minus criminal record) and at some point after that the gun arrives at the criminal. As i said before, todays legal gun is tomorrows illegal gun. remove the legal gun today and you don't have an illegal gun tomorrow. If this had been done say 10 or 20 years ago there would be alot less illegal guns today. Now you could say 'no point in saying what should have been done 10 or 20 years ago.' but if you take this course of action today then in 10 or 20 years time you will have achieved a safer america.

That is not evidence. That is an argument based on faulty assumptions. As Soy Leche said, guns would just come from outside the country. Show me evidence that in countries where guns are illegal that criminals actually have a harder time procuring guns.

And thank you so much btw for your unsoliticted advice on how to make America safer. I feel so much safer already knowing that you are looking out for our best interests.

 

[jonny]

Here's a place where you can educate yourself on gun law. There are quite a few regulations regarding carrying weapons.

http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Default.aspx

 

[Fluffy]

Heya jmaster,
"remove all legal and illegal guns and it will be much harder for criminals to get their hands on them"
The United States is a very useful country for studying gun crime due to the variety of gun laws that have been adopted there over the years. Your plan rests on the assumption that there is a positive correlation between gun crime and gun law (ie the laxer the gun laws, the greater the gun crimes). However, this does not seem to fit with the facts.

It is true that we can see some cases where this seems to be the case. We have strict gun laws in the UK and we also have low gun crime. But we have always had low gun crime even when we did not have such strict laws. For example, the 1998 ban on hand guns has not resulted in a decrease in gun crime (in fact there has been a massive increase but this can be attributed to other factors).

So where are the facts to support your case?

 

[jonny]

And thank you so much btw for your unsoliticted advice on how to make America safer. I feel so much safer already knowing that you are looking out for our best interests.

Just for the record, I've always felt save in America. The only place where I've lived where I didn't feel safe was in Hamburg, Germany and they have very strict gun laws there. I didn't feel safe going out at night there at all, especially after being held up at knife point by a group of Muslims because I was a Christian.

 

[jmaster78]

Actually, if we had done this 10 or 20 years ago we would have a lot more illegal guns brought over international borders then we do. That's the only real difference we would have.

so why don't other countries have the same level of gun crime? It is practically illegal to own a gun in britain, and we don't have a society filled with guns brought in illegally.

 

[lilithu]

Just for the record, I've always felt save in America.

I was being sarcastic jonny. I feel safe in America too, and I live in an area that is supposedly high-crime and have walked through other supposed high-crime neighborhoods by myself at night. jmaster78 seems to be under the impression that Americans are living in mortal fear all the time.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I carry a knife at all times in my pocket. I don't need a holster - it has a nice clip.

Ditto. Well, obviously I can't carry it to school, but I own a smaller pocketknife as well, and I can assure jmaster I'm not some insane lunatic whose going to go kill someone with it on accident or whatever.

 

[SoyLeche]

so why don't other countries have the same level of gun crime? It is practically illegal to own a gun in britain, and we don't have a society filled with guns brought in illegally.

As has already been pointed out - most of them had lower levels of gun crime before any bans on guns. It's a difference in mentality, not in the availability of guns.

 

[NoahideHiker]

Wow! This thread totally got away from me and I can't even wade through it all. All I can add is this...

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

-Ben Franklin

 

[jmaster78]

You can't carry it concealed "just in case." If you are going to carry a gun without a concealed permit there are strict laws about how it can be carried. I know, for instance, that it has to be carried on your hip so that it can be seen from the front and back. Also, it cannot be loaded (the law regarding this is different in each state).



Again, you cannot carry a loaded weapon in your car without a concealed permit. It has to be three steps away from being fired in Utah, for example.







Weapons in the United States all have numbers on them and can be traced back the the person who purchased it. The government doesn't inspect our guns, but they can account for the owner of a gun.



Yeah. We can get our ammo at Wal-mart. Thank goodness.



As opposed to Americans...B.S. Perhaps someone from Northern Ireland should think twice about lecturing Americans on valuing life. Contrary to your belief, people are not dying left and right from gun wounds.



I carry a knife at all times in my pocket. I don't need a holster - it has a nice clip.

Funny that you should bring up the troubles in Northern Ireland. Whats also funny is that if you take the amount of people shot during the troubles divided by per head of population per year, and the same stats for america, Aamerica is far more dangerous! bearing in mind we were in the grips of a terrorist campaign and practical civil war at the same time, what does that say about the bright shining light of civility that is.....america?
Thanks for the link on gun laws, but there is very little gun crime where i come from now so i don't need it!

 

[SoyLeche]

I was being sarcastic jonny. I feel safe in America too, and I live in an area that is supposedly high-crime and have walked through other supposed high-crime neighborhoods by myself at night. jmaster78 seems to be under the impression that Americans are living in mortal fear all the time.

I never witnessed a gang fight while I was in Peru, but some of the other missionaries did. They said it didn't seem as dangerous to them as a gang fight in Los Angelous. It's fairly easy for an onlooker to dodge a brick...

The father of one of the families we lived with showed me the handgun he had hidden away, though - just in case. If you want to know a little about his history, read this. His brother wrote that, and I was told more details first hand. I'm not sure what the gun laws are like in Peru. My guess the reason the gangs don't have them down there is more because they can't afford them than anything else.

 

[jmaster78]

As has already been pointed out - most of them had lower levels of gun crime before any bans on guns. It's a difference in mentality, not in the availability of guns.

Then if america has such a mentality, filling it with more guns makes perfect sense!