Is prayer the walkie-talkie of war?

[Heneni]

As an addendum to my previous post:
Is prayer a walkie-talkie for war? No. Prayer is a walkie-talkie for holy conversation. Prayer is fundamentally a communication -- a drawing nigh -- between God and humanity. The "spiritual warfare" idea only works if one buys into the Calvinist ideal of total depravity -- which I do not. I buy into the inherent goodness of humanity, as we are created in God's image. Therefore, I deal with sin by dusting and cleaning, not by sacking and pillaging.

I dont buy into the name clame and frame religion either. We are not fighting humans. We are not fighting anything other than to keep the faith.

But, having said that...does the bible not say that there was war in heaven. What type of war do you think this was? A onesided war?

Heneni

 

[sojourner]

I dont buy into the name clame and frame religion either. We are not fighting humans. We are not fighting anything other than to keep the faith.

But, having said that...does the bible not say that there was war in heaven. What type of war do you think this was? A onesided war?

Heneni

First of all, I don't understand your reference to "name clame and frame." Fighting also does not necessarily mean warfare. Boxing is fighting. But it isn't warfare.

The Bible does say that. I don't think anything about it. It's a metaphor generated by a vision. The Bible says lots of things that I weigh and discount as relatively unimoprtant in the grand scheme of spiritual well-being.

 

[Charity]

First of all, I don't understand your reference to "name clame and frame." Fighting also does not necessarily mean warfare. Boxing is fighting. But it isn't warfare.

The Bible does say that. I don't think anything about it. It's a metaphor generated by a vision. The Bible says lots of things that I weigh and discount as relatively unimoprtant in the grand scheme of spiritual well-being.

Why is everything we don't want to believe assumed to be a metaphor. I know there is a log of symbolic statements in the Bible, but there are some things that just can't be denied...it says what it means and means what it says....

 

[sojourner]

Why is everything we don't want to believe assumed to be a metaphor. I know there is a log of symbolic statements in the Bible, but there are some things that just can't be denied...it says what it means and means what it says....

Oh I clearly understand that. Graduate work in biblical studies has inculcated that fact clearly within my understanding. However, revelation is not a real good example of literalism.

 

[Charity]

Oh I clearly understand that. Graduate work in biblical studies has inculcated that fact clearly within my understanding. However, revelation is not a real good example of literalism.

Litterally you have to have the revelation first.........We could swap credentials back and forth but to what end? There will always be someone else who believes we are wrong.......

 

[sojourner]

Litterally you have to have the revelation first.........We could swap credentials back and forth but to what end? There will always be someone else who believes we are wrong.......

But a vision is not generally considered to be a factual account of a literal event. It is generally considered to be metaphorical or allegorical at best. A revelatory vision is a literal event in the life of the visionary, but the event so revealed is usually not a literalistic account of the issue to which it alludes.

 

[Charity]

But a vision is not generally considered to be a factual account of a literal event. It is generally considered to be metaphorical or allegorical at best. A revelatory vision is a literal event in the life of the visionary, but the event so revealed is usually not a literalistic account of the issue to which it alludes.

Was there a certain event that you had in mind when you made this statement? I just want to see if we are talking about the same scripture

 

[sojourner]

Henenei's post about the biblical war in heaven is found in Revelation, which is not prophecy, but revelation, and is highly allegorical in nature.

 

[Charity]

Henenei's post about the biblical war in heaven is found in Revelation, which is not prophecy, but revelation, and is highly allegorical in nature.

OK I see what you mean here....When we were into the talk of spiritual warfare, I was thinking about Ephesians 6:10 concerning the Armour of God and to be ready for the spiritual battle against evil....The unseen enemy...That we battle against principles that are unseen daily....With the talk of the Spiritual warfare I just sort of drifted to that scripture. OK the war in Heaven, revelation yes thanks for your answer on that Sojourner.........

 

[sojourner]

OK I see what you mean here....When we were into the talk of spiritual warfare, I was thinking about Ephesians 6:10 concerning the Armour of God and to be ready for the spiritual battle against evil....The unseen enemy...That we battle against principles that are unseen daily....With the talk of the Spiritual warfare I just sort of drifted to that scripture. OK the war in Heaven, revelation yes thanks for your answer on that Sojourner.........

Well, but Ephesians is also speaking metaphorically. There is no such artifact as "the breastplate of righteousness." Plus, the world view of Ephesus is completely different that of millenial America. Just because the author couches a spiritual struggle in terms of warfare, it doesn't mean that war is actually going on.
Those of us who abide in God's shadow aren't at war. We're fundamentally at peace.

 

[Heneni]

Your flesh is forever at war with your spirit. There can be no truce between the two...one of them must die.

THEN you are at peace (when the flesh as been crucified)

 

[Charity]

Well, but Ephesians is also speaking metaphorically. There is no such artifact as "the breastplate of righteousness." Plus, the world view of Ephesus is completely different that of millenial America. Just because the author couches a spiritual struggle in terms of warfare, it doesn't mean that war is actually going on.
Those of us who abide in God's shadow aren't at war. We're fundamentally at peace.

Yes Sojourner, I hope you don't think I don't realize this is symbolic...but symbolism has it's place....It teaches us this for a purpose and that is the fact that we are in a warfare with darkness and we need to be aware of it on a daily basis. Just because we are at peace doesn't mean we let our guard down. No we aren't in a real war but a spiritual one. I hope you are not deceived in thinking that we are ever so "untouchable" that we can just cease to ignore the fact that we are human by nature and subject to human error. We have to pray and stand our ground as believers.

 

[Charity]

Your flesh is forever at war with your spirit. There can be no truce between the two...one of them must die.

THEN you are at peace (when the flesh as been crucified)

I agree with you Heneni and we have to check ourselves and keep the flesh in check, right? That is a battle, keeping the flesh under subjection...

 

[sojourner]

Yes Sojourner, I hope you don't think I don't realize this is symbolic...but symbolism has it's place....It teaches us this for a purpose and that is the fact that we are in a warfare with darkness and we need to be aware of it on a daily basis. Just because we are at peace doesn't mean we let our guard down. No we aren't in a real war but a spiritual one. I hope you are not deceived in thinking that we are ever so "untouchable" that we can just cease to ignore the fact that we are human by nature and subject to human error. We have to pray and stand our ground as believers.

I don't think that the fact of our humanity necessarily infers a "fact" that we are "at war." We are subject to human error. We battle with ourselves in order to not turn our heads to the bling, but stay focused on the still, small voice. But that hardly constitutes war, spiritual or otherwise. War means that something (ground, border, leaders, resources, etc) are in jeopardy. We are not in jeopardy, because we have been reconciled to God. Human error has been accounted for by grace.

 

[sojourner]

I agree with you Heneni and we have to check ourselves and keep the flesh in check, right? That is a battle, keeping the flesh under subjection...

this is a shameless plug for Platonistic dualism: Flesh=bad/not real. spirit=good/real. I don't see that kind of dualism extant in creation.

 

[Heneni]

We are not in jeopardy, because we have been reconciled to God. Human error has been accounted for by grace.

The devil walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Not in jeopardy? Not in danger?

We are more than conquerors. A conqueror conquers. So..that means there is opposition, yet it is overcome.

 

[Charity]

this is a shameless plug for Platonistic dualism: Flesh=bad/not real. spirit=good/real. I don't see that kind of dualism extant in creation.

Oh please! this isn't a plug for anything. That's the problem when you get too much religious education you start putting a label on everything someone says, it means this or it means that.....Thank God, I had this education but it didn't blind me to the fact that evil is real.......
My point is we fight temptations every day, to me that is a spiritual battle against principalities....I can choose to do what I believe is right according to my belief or I can waiver in my walk. If I symbolically put on my spiritual clothing and cover myself with prayer then I am able to stand against temptation no matter what it is.
What I mean by spiritual clothing is to be covered with prayer, righteousness, and to be well versed in God's word.....How can you not agree that a believer needs to do these things?....Or are some of us more Holy and so righteous that we are above any temptation or never make wrong choices?

 

[sojourner]

The devil walks around like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Not in jeopardy? Not in danger?

We are more than conquerors. A conqueror conquers. So..that means there is opposition, yet it is overcome.

No. We stand outside the lion pen, because of grace.

Conquering does not infer war. It infers a hurdle or goal that has to be met. Through grace, Christ met that goal for us.

 

[sojourner]

Your flesh is forever at war with your spirit. There can be no truce between the two...one of them must die.

THEN you are at peace (when the flesh as been crucified)

Flesh struggles with spirit. But I wouldn't say it's "at war" with spirit. There can be "truce" between them. It is possible, but it takes work.

 

[sojourner]

Oh please! this isn't a plug for anything. That's the problem when you get too much religious education you start putting a label on everything someone says, it means this or it means that.....Thank God, I had this education but it didn't blind me to the fact that evil is real.......
My point is we fight temptations every day, to me that is a spiritual battle against principalities....I can choose to do what I believe is right according to my belief or I can waiver in my walk. If I symbolically put on my spiritual clothing and cover myself with prayer then I am able to stand against temptation no matter what it is.
What I mean by spiritual clothing is to be covered with prayer, righteousness, and to be well versed in God's word.....How can you not agree that a believer needs to do these things?....Or are some of us more Holy and so righteous that we are above any temptation or never make wrong choices?

OK...let's quantify your assertion. Just how much education constitutes "too much?" I'd like a number, please. Just exactly by how much of a percentage do exceed the "acceptable" limit?

How do you know that you don't have "just enough to make you dangerous" and are in need of more? Are you inferring that I am blind, because I have "too much?"

Of course evil is real. But we don't have to buy into that reality for our own spiritual well-being.

We follow Christ, we pray, we study, we seek righteousness, we wear our spiritual clothing not to "escape the clutches of evil," but in order to seek God while God wills to be found -- to call upon God when God is near. You've got the wrong impetus. When we draw near to God, evil fades. We need not fear any evil, for God is with us, God's rod and staff comfort us.