Is premarital sex moral or immoral?

[Spartan]

Keep telling yourself that you might believe it to be true, there is there is nothing wrong with being gay, or having gay sex. As I have said many times Jesus might have been gay. Just supposing he was, and it could be proved beyond all doubt to be the case, how would you react? No doubt you would stick you head up your rear end and refuse to believe it was true!

Please spare me your nonsense.

 

[JJ50]

Please spare me your nonsense.

Only when you spare us yours!

 

[Spartan]

OK, I can accept that engaging in these acts is a choice. They all sound like fun to me... As long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, there is no harm to any of the things you listed. In fact, they can all be factors in happily married life. Maybe not a Christian one, but you're not selling that life to be honest.

I'm sure not buying or selling your anti-biblical immorality.

 

[JJ50]

I'm sure not buying or selling your anti-biblical immorality.

I don't think too many are buying your garbage, which brings your faith into disrepute. Your take on it is likely to put anyone off for life.

 

[Dan Mellis]

I'm sure not buying or selling your anti-biblical immorality.

Actually, it's neither moral nor immoral. Although I would agree its very anti biblical.

 

[dianaiad]

OK, I can accept that engaging in these acts is a choice. They all sound like fun to me... As long as everyone involved is a consenting adult, there is no harm to any of the things you listed. In fact, they can all be factors in happily married life. Maybe not a Christian one, but you're not selling that life to be honest.

Agreed, they are all choices. As to your position that there is no harm...no harm in adultery? No harm in fornication..(well, call that 'pre-marital...or pre-choose a permanent partner) sex?

Unwanted pregnancies? Mind you, you're a guy, so that might not be all that big a problem to you. I mean, really; whether the woman keeps the baby or aborts it, YOU don't have to deal with the physical discomforts and other consequences if you don't have to. I suppose that this could, to you, be 'no harm.' Very typical mindset, historically, for men, come to think of it.

....and I have never known adultery to be a factor in happily married life. Ever. That is 'harm,' no matter how you look at it.

But I do have to admit; your position is very traditional.

For men.

You MIGHT consider the problem of STD's, though.

 

[Polymath257]

Agreed, they are all choices. As to your position that there is no harm...no harm in adultery? No harm in fornication..(well, call that 'pre-marital...or pre-choose a permanent partner) sex?

If everyone involved (including other partners) is onboard, then there is no harm.

Unwanted pregnancies? Mind you, you're a guy, so that might not be all that big a problem to you. I mean, really; whether the woman keeps the baby or aborts it, YOU don't have to deal with the physical discomforts and other consequences if you don't have to. I suppose that this could, to you, be 'no harm.' Very typical mindset, historically, for men, come to think of it.

Well, that's one reason why we have and should encourage the use of birth control

....and I have never known adultery to be a factor in happily married life. Ever. That is 'harm,' no matter how you look at it.

The harm from adultery comes from the dishonesty, not from the sex. If everyone is honest and is OK, there is no harm.

But I do have to admit; your position is very traditional.

For men.

Hmm...my wife agrees with me. Remember that women can have other partners also.

You MIGHT consider the problem of STD's, though.

Yes, STDs are a concern and communication with partners is a very good thing. But are they really a reason not to have sex? Is the risk of driving a car enough to say nobody shoudl drive a car?

 

[dianaiad]

If everyone involved (including other partners) is onboard, then there is no harm.



Well, that's one reason why we have and should encourage the use of birth control



The harm from adultery comes from the dishonesty, not from the sex. If everyone is honest and is OK, there is no harm.



Hmm...my wife agrees with me. Remember that women can have other partners also.


Yes, STDs are a concern and communication with partners is a very good thing. But are they really a reason not to have sex? Is the risk of driving a car enough to say nobody shoudl drive a car?

Is the risk of a crash enough for drivers to obey the rules?

I can tell you this: I don't care how much a woman (or a man) 'goes along' with his or her spouse fooling around with someone else, s/he really isn't. The relationship is broken in a fundamental way....And, as I have been told MANY times here, birth control isn't 100% effective. When it isn't, it's the woman who has to deal with it.

Though I do agree with you that birth control is important.

As for me, well...I honestly don't think that there are many couples who can handle openly adulterous relationships (as opposed to polygamous ones, though there aren't that many who can handle polygamous ones, either). The vast majority of adulterous relationships are engaged in without the knowledge or permission of the spouse.

.......and that is 'harm.' I certainly wouldn't do it to my husband, and I wouldn't put up with it from him, either.

Which, I'm beginning to think, is one of the reasons I haven't re-married. Too many people have attitudes like yours who think that there is 'no harm' in it. I was blessed (or lucky, you pick) the first time. Getting two gems seemed like pushing it.

 

[Polymath257]

Is the risk of a crash enough for drivers to obey the rules?

I can tell you this: I don't care how much a woman (or a man) 'goes along' with his or her spouse fooling around with someone else, s/he really isn't. The relationship is broken in a fundamental way....And, as I have been told MANY times here, birth control isn't 100% effective. When it isn't, it's the woman who has to deal with it.

Well, part of being a good partner is to 'be there' in such situations and support her decision.

Though I do agree with you that birth control is important.

As for me, well...I honestly don't think that there are many couples who can handle openly adulterous relationships (as opposed to polygamous ones, though there aren't that many who can handle polygamous ones, either). The vast majority of adulterous relationships are engaged in without the knowledge or permission of the spouse.

Which means the spouse is not *on board* with it. And, in that case, i agree---it is harmful. But it isn't the sex that is harmful, it is the lying and dishonesty. And that is what destroys a relationship. But the same could be had with someone who lies about how much money they are spending, which is often much more of a violation.

And I agree with your excluding of polyamorous relationships, but then, that is the point: it isn't the sex outside of marriage that is the harm. It is the dishonesty.

......and that is 'harm.' I certainly wouldn't do it to my husband, and I wouldn't put up with it from him, either.

Which, I'm beginning to think, is one of the reasons I haven't re-married. Too many people have attitudes like yours who think that there is 'no harm' in it. I was blessed (or lucky, you pick) the first time. Getting two gems seemed like pushing it.

You should not put up with anyone who is dishonest. And, if you want monogamy, you shouldn't be in a relationship that doesn't assume it.

 

[Dan Mellis]

Agreed, they are all choices. As to your position that there is no harm...no harm in adultery? No harm in fornication..(well, call that 'pre-marital...or pre-choose a permanent partner) sex?

Unwanted pregnancies? Mind you, you're a guy, so that might not be all that big a problem to you. I mean, really; whether the woman keeps the baby or aborts it, YOU don't have to deal with the physical discomforts and other consequences if you don't have to. I suppose that this could, to you, be 'no harm.' Very typical mindset, historically, for men, come to think of it.

....and I have never known adultery to be a factor in happily married life. Ever. That is 'harm,' no matter how you look at it.

But I do have to admit; your position is very traditional.

For men.

You MIGHT consider the problem of STD's, though.

So let's deal with STD's and unwanted pregnancy first. These are both results of irresponsible sex rather than homosexual or premarital sex.

Secondly, simply because you've never personally spoken with a couple who've been OK with either having extramarital sex or being open to talk about it doesn't mean that it isn't a factor of many marriages. In fact, there are lots of happy couples who attribute the success of their marriage to extramarital sex, whether that be something they do as a couple or trust each other to do individually. That's not to say that it hasn't ended relationships too, but if everyone in the relationship is happy with the other person sleeping around responsibly then it isn't harmful in the slightest.

Thirdly, using my gender to undermine my points simply demonstrates that you don't have much in the way of arguments to rebut them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am beginning to think you are a gay in denial, that would figure.

I've yet to see any firm correlation to establish that as an actual trend beyond something that sometimes happens. Actually, I very much doubt we can reliably say that anti-gay people are probably gay themselves. Seems to me another foolish assumption that isn't really based in reality just to make it easier to dismiss someone and their claims.

 

[Polymath257]

Why is there also the default assumption that all 'pre-marital' sex is between a man and a woman?

 

[dianaiad]

Well, part of being a good partner is to 'be there' in such situations and support her decision.

People who break the rules of their culture seldom make 'good partners.'

Which means the spouse is not *on board* with it. And, in that case, i agree---it is harmful. But it isn't the sex that is harmful, it is the lying and dishonesty. And that is what destroys a relationship. But the same could be had with someone who lies about how much money they are spending, which is often much more of a violation.

Lying about how much money they are spending won't result in incurable diseases or unwanted pregnancies.

And I agree with your excluding of polyamorous relationships, but then, that is the point: it isn't the sex outside of marriage that is the harm. It is the dishonesty.

it is the dishonesty, yes...but it's ALSO the sex. Or haven't you heard the one about when one has sex, one is not only having sex with one's partner, but also with everybody s/he has had sex with?

Because that's true. When one has sex, one is exposing oneself to all the germs and virii that may have come along with the partner. Again, it's the woman who gets the short end of that particular bargain, because it's "easier" for a woman to catch an STD from a man than it is for a man to catch it from a woman. Here's a short list from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/std/health-disparities/stds-women-042011.pdf

You should not put up with anyone who is dishonest. And, if you want monogamy, you shouldn't be in a relationship that doesn't assume it.

The whole point of most adultery is that it's a secret. While, quite frequently, the spouse is aware that something is wrong, the whole point is to keep him/her from knowing about it. That's sorta the point about being dishonest about most things. It seems a bit counterproductive for someone to insert a disclaimer in the lie s/he tells, such as 'I'm lying to you, don't believe me when I tell you that I was on a business trip and slept alone in my hotel..."

 

[dianaiad]

So let's deal with STD's and unwanted pregnancy first. These are both results of irresponsible sex rather than homosexual or premarital sex.

They are both the results of sex. No sex, no STD's or unwanted pregnancies. You are also begging the question of whether adulterous sex or premarital sex are responsible. Please note; I said nothing about homosexual sex. That's your insertion. Though to be honest, since gay marriage is legal (and finding a permanent partner to whom one is committed and 'true' was possible before gay marriage was legal) the same points ...well, not the unwanted pregnancies, but CERTAINLY the STD's....are still a problem if one commits adultery or has premarital sex, or sex with multiple partners. Gay or straight, the principle is the same.

Secondly, simply because you've never personally spoken with a couple who've been OK with either having extramarital sex or being open to talk about it doesn't mean that it isn't a factor of many marriages. In fact, there are lots of happy couples who attribute the success of their marriage to extramarital sex, whether that be something they do as a couple or trust each other to do individually. That's not to say that it hasn't ended relationships too, but if everyone in the relationship is happy with the other person sleeping around responsibly then it isn't harmful in the slightest.

Define 'lots.'

The folks who engage in what they call 'open' marriages, or who are 'swingers,' (or whatever they call it) are in an extreme minority. And I know of none who have celebrated fifty years of marriage. Do you?

Thirdly, using my gender to undermine my points simply demonstrates that you don't have much in the way of arguments to rebut them.

Actually, YOU are the one using your gender to make very obviously male-centered arguments. I can't think of a single woman who would be as blithe about making the points you are attempting to make here, because women DO bear the brunt of the negative consequences of pre-marital and extra-marital sex. They have to. They can't get out of it. Men...if they CHOOSE, can stick around and help, but they don't have to. They CAN walk away. I've borne five children. You don't get out of being pregnant by saying 'I've changed my mind" and walking out of the door.

Even if one decides to get an abortion, bub, that is NOT a trip to a day spa.

 

[Polymath257]

People who break the rules of their culture seldom make 'good partners.'

I disagree. They are usually *better* partners. YMMV

Lying about how much money they are spending won't result in incurable diseases or unwanted pregnancies.

But it can lead to poverty, loss of job, etc.

it is the dishonesty, yes...but it's ALSO the sex. Or haven't you heard the one about when one has sex, one is not only having sex with one's partner, but also with everybody s/he has had sex with?

Because that's true. When one has sex, one is exposing oneself to all the germs and virii that may have come along with the partner. Again, it's the woman who gets the short end of that particular bargain, because it's "easier" for a woman to catch an STD from a man than it is for a man to catch it from a woman. Here's a short list from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/std/health-disparities/stds-women-042011.pdf

Why do you assume it is the man who is getting outside sex?

The whole point of most adultery is that it's a secret. While, quite frequently, the spouse is aware that something is wrong, the whole point is to keep him/her from knowing about it. That's sorta the point about being dishonest about most things. It seems a bit counterproductive for someone to insert a disclaimer in the lie s/he tells, such as 'I'm lying to you, don't believe me when I tell you that I was on a business trip and slept alone in my hotel..."

Sorry, but I don't support such dishonesty. Even DADT isn't a good idea, IMHO.

 

[dianaiad]

Why is there also the default assumption that all 'pre-marital' sex is between a man and a woman?

Dunno. It's not an 'assumption' that I made. It's one that people keep wanting to hang on me, though.

 

[Polymath257]

Dunno. It's not an 'assumption' that I made. It's one that people keep wanting to hang on me, though.

Why do you assume it is only the men that want 'outside sex'?

 

[dianaiad]

I disagree. They are usually *better* partners. YMMV

Nobody's mileage varies that much. People who break the rules of their culture (especially those concerning marriage or sexual partnerships, such as monogamy or commitment) cannot make 'better' partners. Saying so is a direct contradiction of terms. How can a partner who betrays you be a 'better' partner? One who lies about this will lie about anything, and cannot be trusted. Perhaps you could explain how THAT would make one a 'better' partner?

But it can lead to poverty, loss of job, etc.

And that's bad. It does not, however, make adultery BETTER.

Why do you assume it is the man who is getting outside sex?

It usually, traditionally, is....but there is nothing about my posts that make that assumption. Doesn't really matter which partner is getting the outside sex, y'know. It is STILL the woman who has to pay more consequences, physically. That might not be quite as true for lesbian relationships, and of course for gay male relationships the situation doesn't arise at all unless the erring partner brings a blazing case of AIDS to a wife...who can give that nasty condition to her babies.

Sorry, but I don't support such dishonesty. Even DADT isn't a good idea, IMHO.

Well, good for you.

I don't support such dishonesty either, but the point of BEING dishonest is to keep the person you are lying to unaware that you are lying. As for me, if my husband were truthful about wanting to go out and have sex with other women, I would be fine with it. I'd tell him that he was free to do so, with my blessing and hope for a very good life..... right after he signed the divorce papers.

 

[Dan Mellis]

They are both the results of sex. No sex, no STD's or unwanted pregnancies. You are also begging the question of whether adulterous sex or premarital sex are responsible. Please note; I said nothing about homosexual sex. That's your insertion. Though to be honest, since gay marriage is legal (and finding a permanent partner to whom one is committed and 'true' was possible before gay marriage was legal) the same points ...well, not the unwanted pregnancies, but CERTAINLY the STD's....are still a problem if one commits adultery or has premarital sex, or sex with multiple partners. Gay or straight, the principle is the same.



Define 'lots.'

The folks who engage in what they call 'open' marriages, or who are 'swingers,' (or whatever they call it) are in an extreme minority. And I know of none who have celebrated fifty years of marriage. Do you?



Actually, YOU are the one using your gender to make very obviously male-centered arguments. I can't think of a single woman who would be as blithe about making the points you are attempting to make here, because women DO bear the brunt of the negative consequences of pre-marital and extra-marital sex. They have to. They can't get out of it. Men...if they CHOOSE, can stick around and help, but they don't have to. They CAN walk away. I've borne five children. You don't get out of being pregnant by saying 'I've changed my mind" and walking out of the door.

Even if one decides to get an abortion, bub, that is NOT a trip to a day spa.

So we know that advocating for abstinence is not effective as a prevention for STD's or unwanted pregnancies. That is an established fact. Sex Ed is an effective preventative measure for both. Teens are gonna bang, may as well make sure they're safe.

I apologise for inserting homosexuality, I'm getting mixed up in different threads.

Actually, I do know a fair few singers who've been married a long time. Happily married, I might add. Even if I didn't though, just because I hadn't met them doesn't mean they don't exist.

I'm confused. I didn't mention gender at all, or suggest in any way that abortion was easy. Forgetting the physical pain, the emotional toll it must take to make that decision is something I don't presume to even half understand. I don't understand where you're getting this 'male privilege' angle from... I absolutely accept that I benefit from that but you kind of conjured that outta nowhere.

 

[Polymath257]

And that's bad. It does not, however, make adultery BETTER.

And again, lying is the ultimate problem.

It usually, traditionally, is....but there is nothing about my posts that make that assumption. Doesn't really matter which partner is getting the outside sex, y'know. It is STILL the woman who has to pay more consequences, physically.

And if she is willing to take that risk?

That might not be quite as true for lesbian relationships, and of course for gay male relationships the situation doesn't arise at all unless the erring partner comes home to a wife with a blazing case of AIDS.

Are you only thinking of pregnancy here? Diseases can be spread in whatever type of relationship.

Well, good for you.

I don't support such dishonesty either, but the point of BEING dishonest is to keep the person you are lying to unaware that you are lying. As for me, if my husband were truthful about wanting to go out and have sex with other women, I would be fine with it. I'd tell him that he was free to do so, with my blessing and hope for a very good life..... right after he signed the divorce papers.

ANd that is your choice. You don't want to open things up. OK. But if someone *does*, they have that right (in communication with partner(s)).