Is premarital sex really a sin?

[sojourner]

I shall rephrase for clarity:
From a Biblical perspective: the answer hinges on whether the woman is a virgin or not.

 

[Harikrish]

Premarital sex can be a sin if you perform badly because it can lead to lowered expectations and future disappointments in what is otherwise an enjoyable act.

 

[sojourner]

Premarital sex can be a sin if you perform badly because it can lead to lowered expectations and future disappointments in what is otherwise an enjoyable act.

Aaaand... "lowered expections" is a sin... in what way, again? You should get a grip on your theology before sticking your foot in your mouth.

 

[Harikrish]

Aaaand... "lowered expections" is a sin... in what way, again? You should get a grip on your theology before sticking your foot in your mouth.

Lowered expectations and disappointment. Some never recover from this.

Why do you think both Mary and Jesus remained virgins. Read your bible.

 

[sojourner]

Lowered expectations and disappointment. Some never recover from this.

Why do you think both Mary and Jesus remained virgins. Read your bible.

Simply repeating yourself doesn't answer the question. Please find in the bible where it specifically lists "lowered expectation" or "disappointment" as sins.

Mary didn't remain a virgin. Where do you think James came from? And the other siblings mentioned in the gospels?

Jesus? No one's sure. he may or may not.




Take your own advice, Pal.

 

[Sonofason]

I am not talking about the Christian texts, just Leviticus. And Leviticus is clearly limited to anal intercourse between men, with all sorts of unusual and ambiguous language. Paul is another matter that must be considered separately.

Homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men. You can try to re-define homosexuality however you like, and I will still know that homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men.

 

[sojourner]

Homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men. You can try to re-define homosexuality however you like, and I will still know that homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men.

Partly.

 

[gsa]

Homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men. You can try to re-define homosexuality however you like, and I will still know that homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men.

Allow me to make a simple point: All acts of anal intercourse between two men can be classified as "homosexual conduct." However, not all acts of homosexual conduct, and certainly not the spectrum of homosexuality from an affectional and behavioral standpoint, can be reduced to anal intercourse between men. Do you comprehend what that means about the transgression described in Leviticus 20:13? Among other things, it does not encompass other acts between two men, and says nothing about women.

 

[Sonofason]

Allow me to make a simple point: All acts of anal intercourse between two men can be classified as "homosexual conduct." However, not all acts of homosexual conduct, and certainly not the spectrum of homosexuality from an affectional and behavioral standpoint, can be reduced to anal intercourse between men. Do you comprehend what that means about the transgression described in Leviticus 20:13? Among other things, it does not encompass other acts between two men, and says nothing about women.

Well, in my opinion, that is where you are wrong. Homosexual is not about identity. It is about behavior. A homosexual is one who engages in homosexual behavior. It has everything to do with sodomy, and has nothing to do with anything else.

 

[gsa]

Well, in my opinion, that is where you are wrong. Homosexual is not about identity. It is about behavior. A homosexual is one who engages in homosexual behavior. It has everything to do with sodomy, and has nothing to do with anything else.

So you would agree that oral sex between men, male coupling, etcetera, and also all forms of lesbianism, are not biblically prohibited? Because they're not addressed by Leviticus. Nor is intercrural sex for that matter.

 

[Sonofason]

So you would agree that oral sex between men, male coupling, etcetera, and also all forms of lesbianism, are not biblically prohibited? Because they're not addressed by Leviticus. Nor is intercrural sex for that matter.

No I don't agree with you. Everything you mention is reprobate behavior. But it is not all homosexual behavior.

 

[gsa]

No I don't agree with you. Everything you mention is reprobate behavior. But it is not all homosexual behavior.

So the be all end all of homosexual behavior is a single type of act that excludes female homosexuality altogether?

Also I don't know how you get to reprobate behavior textually.

 

[sojourner]

Well, in my opinion, that is where you are wrong. Homosexual is not about identity. It is about behavior. A homosexual is one who engages in homosexual behavior. It has everything to do with sodomy, and has nothing to do with anything else.

"In your opinion." Two problems here: 1) No one else shares this opinion You alone, among theological, medical, behavioral, and sociological professional communities, have this "opinion." 2) It's opinion. It's not fact. All evidence points to homosexuality being about an identity that is expressed through a range of behaviors.

But I see what you're doing. It has been argued many times that the bible is wrong, because the bible doesn't acknowledge what we now know about the nature of homosexuality. So, you've simply moved the goal posts by asserting that all these professional communities are wrong about the nature of homosexuality, and you've adopted this "opinion," because it happens to be conveniently congruent with the biblical texts. Next, you're going to hide behind the fallacy that "it must be true, because that's what the bible says." You will next attempt to cement this "argument" by hiding behind the "faith trumps knowledge" fallacy. Then, you'll "seal the deal" by creating an ad hominem argument stating that all who don't share your "opinion" cannot possibly be true believers, because we "cannot understand what the texts 'clearly' say."

All this, even though the texts have been proven to be wrong in at least one other place. To which you responded, "Nuh-uh, it doesn't say that," when it clearly does say that.

Homosexuality is about identity, no matter what you believe the bible "says." That's reality, and no amount of faith-posturing will change it.

 

[Harikrish]

Homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men. You can try to re-define homosexuality however you like, and I will still know that homosexual conduct is anal intercourse between men.

Homosexuality is simply the attraction of people to the same sex/gender. Anal sex is also enjoyed by heterosexuals.

 

[sojourner]

Homosexuality is simply the attraction of people to the same sex/gender. Anal sex is also enjoyed by heterosexuals.

Apparently, according to one who is "never wrong about the bible," heterosexual people magically become homosexual when they engage in anal sex.

 

[Harikrish]

Apparently, according to one who is "never wrong about the bible," heterosexual people magically become homosexual when they engage in anal sex.

Might explain why he is not much fun to be with...still maintaining a missionary position.

 

[Sonofason]

So the be all end all of homosexual behavior is a single type of act that excludes female homosexuality altogether?

I guess you're right, I suppose all of these things actually can be categorized as homosexuality. Forgive me if I have suggested otherwise.

Also I don't know how you get to reprobate behavior textually.

Well, in part by these verses of scripture:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
(Romans 1:18-32)

reprobate - to foreordain to damnation
Reprobate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

I believe I have made the connection you've requested.

 

[Sonofason]

"In your opinion." Two problems here: 1) No one else shares this opinion You alone, among theological, medical, behavioral, and sociological professional communities, have this "opinion." 2) It's opinion. It's not fact. All evidence points to homosexuality being about an identity that is expressed through a range of behaviors.

But I see what you're doing. It has been argued many times that the bible is wrong, because the bible doesn't acknowledge what we now know about the nature of homosexuality. So, you've simply moved the goal posts by asserting that all these professional communities are wrong about the nature of homosexuality, and you've adopted this "opinion," because it happens to be conveniently congruent with the biblical texts. Next, you're going to hide behind the fallacy that "it must be true, because that's what the bible says." You will next attempt to cement this "argument" by hiding behind the "faith trumps knowledge" fallacy. Then, you'll "seal the deal" by creating an ad hominem argument stating that all who don't share your "opinion" cannot possibly be true believers, because we "cannot understand what the texts 'clearly' say."

All this, even though the texts have been proven to be wrong in at least one other place. To which you responded, "Nuh-uh, it doesn't say that," when it clearly does say that.

Homosexuality is about identity, no matter what you believe the bible "says." That's reality, and no amount of faith-posturing will change it.

1. My opinions do not require the agreement of others.
2. You're right, homosexuality does include a wide range of behaviors, and is not simply the act of sodomy between members of the same sex as it seems I have suggested.

Indeed homosexuals include persons with homosexual desires, whether or not they have committed homosexual acts.

Jesus had suggested that if a married person were to even look upon another person with lust, they have committed adultery. I suppose in the same sense if a man even looks at another man with lust, he is guilty of homosexuality. So, you're right, and I was wrong.

 

[Sonofason]

Homosexuality is simply the attraction of people to the same sex/gender. Anal sex is also enjoyed by heterosexuals.

But no less depraved.

 

[Sonofason]

Might explain why he is not much fun to be with...still maintaining a missionary position.

There are many sexual positions one can enjoy, without inserting one's instrument in excrement.