Is pro-gay Christianity really a tenable position?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it's not "anti-gay." It's "anti-homosexual acts." Since there was no such thing as "gay," how could it be "anti-what-doesn't-exist????"

The homosexual orientation existed even before it was acknowledged to exist. Condemning same-sex acts harms homosexual people, even if the person doing the condemnation doesn't know that homosexuality exists.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sounds like you have a choice between bland and bitter. As you point out, bland doesn't sell well, but neither option has good long-term chances for success, IMO.

Bitter about what? They're going to inherit the society so they don't have anything to be bitter about. Actually, they should be smug and self-confident as their secular, atheistic enemies commit demographic suicide. What the churches are going through is a sort of refining process as the liberal, secular members fall away and demographically die out but the true believers stick with it, rejuvenate it and grow the future generations.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bitter about what? They're going to inherit the society so they don't have anything to be bitter about.

I meant "bitter" as in "unpleasant", not necessarily as in "resentful".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I meant "bitter" as in "unpleasant", not necessarily as in "resentful".

Oh, okay.

 

[sojourner]

The homosexual orientation existed even before it was acknowledged to exist.

Yes.

Condemning same-sex acts harms homosexual people, even if the person doing the condemnation doesn't know that homosexuality exists.

Of course it does.

My point is this: There's a real difference between asserting that the bible "condemns homosexuality" and "condemns homosexual acts." And it's a difference worth noting, because if the bible only condemns homosexual acts, there's no room or excuse for overly pious, zealous religious folk to condemn homosexuals for being what they are. If the bible condemns homosexuality, it gives them a lot of cannon fodder. Plus, the former position allows better room for error on the part of the biblical writers (namely that they didn't have any concept of orientation, thus, any homosexual contact was, by nature, wrong). If, OTOH, the bible condemns homosexuality, there's little wiggle room for any homosexual person to be OK -- chaste or not. The fact that the bible writers condemn homosexual acts only serves to highlight their misapprehension of what those acts are a product of, which serves to make a better, more airtight case for the LGBT+ community and Xtians who wish to advocate for their equal treatment.

 

[suncowiam]

What is a "pro-gay religion"? I honestly don't even have a clue what you're referring to.

Hence the title of this post, "...Pro-Gay Christianity as tenable".

I never bothered arguing this position to begin with which is why the OP felt impelled to single me out. It was misleading and wrong to correlate religion and homosexuality.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

Not necessarily. Retention rates are best for groups whose members have more to lose when they leave. Retention rates are lowest among atheists.


I don't see what this has to do with anything. If they don't have kids, they'll just get crowded out eventually by those Catholics that do.

Based on that rationale, are you willing to align with new traditions based in who's increasing that rates if membership and retention the most?

Hispanic Religion The Catholic Traditions, Meaning & Celebrations Among Hispanics - Hispanic Culture | Latino Culture | Latin American Culture

You are looking backwards to find traditions for your faith, and you claim those are the traditions that will overcome in the end. But if your basing it on birth rates, then you need to look forward and add additional cultural values to your system of beliefs.

There are many RCC traditions from other countries gaining considerable strength in the US. Are you accounting for those too, or is this just flawed reasoning?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Based on that rationale, are you willing to align with new traditions based in who's increasing that rates if membership and retention the most?

Hispanic Religion The Catholic Traditions, Meaning & Celebrations Among Hispanics - Hispanic Culture | Latino Culture | Latin American Culture

You are looking backwards to find traditions for your faith, and you claim those are the traditions that will overcome in the end. But if your basing it on birth rates, then you need to look forward and add additional cultural values to your system of beliefs.

There are many RCC traditions from other countries gaining considerable strength in the US. Are you accounting for those too, or is this just flawed reasoning?

I don't know what you're asking.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I don't know what you're asking.

You're saying that the RCC will outbreed other worldviews, but there are many traditions within the global RCC, and those are gaining traction in the US, and may look different than your traditional model.

Are you views specifically being spread to the next generation, or something else? Will you accept these other cultural views because that's the real future of the RCC in the US?

 

[Scott C.]

I wish that there was a feasible way to make this bet with you.
I'd bet a dollar that within your lifetime the LDS church will hold its finger up to the prevailing winds of morality and homophobia will go the way of polygamy and racism.
Tom

I would not be shocked if the LDS Church were to ever change it's stance on public policy. But, I would be more than shocked if my church ever said that pre-marital sex, adultery, or same gender sex are not sins. That would rock the foundation of sexual morality in my faith.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're saying that the RCC will outbreed other worldviews,

No, I didn't. I was just simply bringing up the fact that conservative religious people in general outbreed secular, atheistic, liberal types. I didn't say that one religious group above all will be the "winner".

but there are many traditions within the global RCC, and those are gaining traction in the US, and may look different than your traditional model.

Are you views specifically being spread to the next generation, or something else? Will you accept these other cultural views because that's the real future of the RCC in the US?

What is my "traditional model"? What other traditions are gaining traction? I don't know what you're referring to. I guess you're talking about Latino Catholics but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

 

[Scott C.]

...I believe anyone that continues to label homosexuals as sinners are bigots...

Well, I label myself a sinner for all that I do which is contrary to God's will. Yet, I'm not a bigot against myself, nor do I despise myself, nor do I wish myself harm or unhappiness. It's unreasonable to label someone as a bigot simply because they believe in sin, regardless of how they feel about or treat sinners. Again, we're all sinners.

 

[gsa]

I would not be shocked if the LDS Church were to ever change it's stance on public policy. But, I would be more than shocked if my church ever said that pre-marital sex, adultery, or same gender sex are not sins. That would rock the foundation of sexual morality in my faith.

Polygamy does not fit within this framework of things that can rock the foundation of sexual morality within your faith, clearly.

 

[columbus]

I would not be shocked if the LDS Church were to ever change it's stance on public policy. But, I would be more than shocked if my church ever said that pre-marital sex, adultery, or same gender sex are not sins. That would rock the foundation of sexual morality in my faith.

I would bet that in 1959 there were a lot of Mormons who would find the revelation of 1979 shocking. And things are changing faster now than they were then.

Gay people getting married and avoiding the problems with irresponsible sex, commonly referred to as adultery, is where things are headed. And I believe that the LDS Church will catch onto this sooner than some organizations due to the ability of 12 people to shift the official teachings so easily.
Tom

 

[suncowiam]

Well, I label myself a sinner for all that I do which is contrary to God's will. Yet, I'm not a bigot against myself, nor do I despise myself, nor do I wish myself harm or unhappiness. It's unreasonable to label someone as a bigot simply because they believe in sin, regardless of how they feel about or treat sinners. Again, we're all sinners.

I appreciate you being very patient and calm under such scrutiny. If you believe me, I'm not fond of calling people bigots because I know your life is much more than just one position. But it pains me to see how the gay community is being labeled for just being born a certain way. People don't condemn a person's skin tone. It's the easiest analogy to put forward. If one believe blacks are sinners then everyone and their grandmothers will jump on that argument.

You have a notion of wrong that I just don't understand. I just can't translate it to my world view. Here lies your issue with me and others like me on how bigotry is applied.

 

[Scott C.]

Polygamy does not fit within this framework of things that can rock the foundation of sexual morality within your faith, clearly.

You're right. It does not rock the foundation. I could say a lot about that, but I don't want to get into a lengthy debate and explanation on why my church used to practice polygamy, but no longer does.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

No, I didn't. I was just simply bringing up the fact that conservative religious people in general outbreed secular, atheistic, liberal types. I didn't say that one religious group above all will be the "winner".

What is my "traditional model"? What other traditions are gaining traction? I don't know what you're referring to. I guess you're talking about Latino Catholics but I don't see what that has to do with anything.

The OP suggested that you were looking to the original traditional views of homosexuality. Was I wrong about that?

The link to Latino RCC does matter, because Latino Catholic beliefs are the demographic future of the RCC in the US. I wanted to suggest with demographics (since you brought it up) that traditions do change. I don't believe that the church will be anti-homosexuality for much longer.

I think you should be prepared for the possibility that it will be the conservative view on homosexuality that will be bred out of the RCC.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The OP suggested that you were looking to the original traditional views of homosexuality. Was I wrong about that?

The link to Latino RCC does matter, because Latino Catholic beliefs are the demographic future of the RCC in the US. I wanted to suggest with demographics (since you brought it up) that traditions do change. I don't believe that the church will be anti-homosexuality for much longer.

I think you should be prepared for the possibility that it will be the conservative view on homosexuality that will bred out of the RCC.

This is all irreverent. It doesn't matter what Latino Catholics think about homosexuality. The Church isn't a democracy. I'll remind you that this thread is about what ancient Jews and Christians thought about the matter. I don't care what the majority of this or that group currently believes.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

This is all irreverent. It doesn't matter what Latino Catholics think about homosexuality. The Church isn't a democracy. I'll remind you that this thread is about what ancient Jews and Christians thought about the matter. I don't care what the majority of this or that group currently believes.

The point is that many of the views of the church change over time. Remember witches? Witch hunts? Inquisition? Crusades? All popular back in the day. But now not so much.

 

[Scott C.]

I appreciate you being very patient and calm under such scrutiny. If you believe me, I'm not fond of calling people bigots because I know your life is much more than just one position. But it pains me to see how the gay community is being labeled for just being born a certain way. People don't condemn a person's skin tone. It's the easiest analogy to put forward. If one believe blacks are sinners then everyone and their grandmothers will jump on that argument.

You have a notion of wrong that I just don't understand. I just can't translate it to my world view. Here lies your issue with me and others like me on how bigotry is applied.

I appreciate your response. It's hard to get on the same page with very diverse world views. It takes great patience and insight to really understand a person's heart and motives. That's true on both sides of the issue.