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Is pro-gay Christianity really a tenable position?

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Or Paul for that matter. I find him nearly as flawed as Leviticus.

I used to think so. Then I read a bit deeper, and now I'm convinced Paul is often trying to get at more or less the opposite of what modern Christians tend to think he's saying. He draws on Leviticus, for example, but at the same time he insists that that sort of purity is an illusion. He gives recommendations for behavior while also pointing out that there is no Law and that everything is permitted. If one takes his culturally-based recommendations at face value as a kind of coherent moral code, Paul comes off as pretty awful and not at all wise. If one takes Paul as trying to convey the basic principles of a radically different approach to morality through the medium of familiar cultural attitudes, then it paints a different picture. The problem is that the latter makes him much harder to read and understand, and few people these days have the patience, so they just pick out individual statements and treat them as Word of God.

Jesus, incidentally, does the same thing as Paul: he doesn't really issue commandments or try to construct a comprehensive moral code, but rather challenges people to think in new ways about morality by seeing through the external rules to the core principles. What people miss about that approach is that it actually means the external rules are negotiable. This approach is in fact a huge part of Christianity's reason for existence, yet so few Christians today appreciate it. Most would prefer to go back to the Law and leave the thinking to someone else.

Here's my take on homosexuality. It is unnatural (because I haven't ever seen a couple of animals have gay sex) but we must allow it. In Romans chapter 1 it says that God gave them over to the desires of their flesh. This tells me that God sort of threw up his hands on the issue and said fine. Some people just choose to learn the hard way about things, and God lets them find out for themselves. He warns them of the consequences but this isn't good enough for some people. So what God did tells me that all the pray the gay away stuff is really incapable of convincing the person they are wrong, experience does. So you know what? Let gay people get married. Let them find out for themselves whether or not it is a good thing. What we experience= truth.

As others have pointed out, it's entirely natural. All people really mean when they call something "unnatural" is "it makes me feel icky." It really isn't possible to make any moral argument from natural law without begging the question, since people will see whatever they want to see, rather than what's there. And really, if you're at the point where you're calling the entire world sinful, rather than people's attitudes, then you've painted yourself into a corner, in that there is no demonstrable example of anything that isn't sinful.

As for finding truth in experience, that's certainly the correct approach. Of course, there's nothing whatsoever in homosexual relationships that indicates they are in any way harmful or wrong, so the experience demonstrates that they are fine. The only special problem homosexual couples have is that heterosexuals won't stop oppressing them. In every other respect their experiences are functionally identical.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
And really, if you're at the point where you're calling the entire world sinful, rather than people's attitudes, then you've painted yourself into a corner, in that there is no demonstrable example of anything that isn't sinful.
Well I don't mean to sound completely ascetic. I believe God put tobacco on the earth, that tobacco was created good, and that the only thing that is evil about it is it is addictive. That is what leads to things like lung cancer, the addiction to it. Lung cancer is developed over time and with much frequency as far as tobacco use. I smoke one menthol a day right now. You can enjoy life and be a spiritual person.
 

JoStories

Well-Known Member
Well as a Christian I could just say that at the fall the whole of creation was subject to the futility of sin, that includes animals. Someone once told me at one point humans were reproducing with chimpanzees and that's how ape men got here.
THUD!!!!!!!!!! The degree of gullibility here is unfathomable. WOW....
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I'm not Jewish, and maybe I'm sticking my big, fat foot in my mouth, but this line of argument sounds a whole lot like "You say 'tomato'; I say 'tomahto'."
That wasn't an argument. It was establishing that although the other guy was Jewish, he clearly only knows random names of sects as he mixed them altogether sometimes repeating himself with synonymous names and sometimes listing names that were ethnic categories rather than sects.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Well, this certainly makes it innersting. I wonder why people don't talk about it often.
Homosexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't see it as at all relevant. Animal behavior is NOT a good model of behavior for humans. We are smarter than animals. Animals do lots of stuff we are better off not doing, and we do lots of things they can't.
We can reason things through and decide what will result in the best quality of life.

Tom
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
I don't see it as at all relevant. Animal behavior is NOT a good model of behavior for humans. We are smarter than animals. Animals do lots of stuff we are better off not doing, and we do lots of things they can't.
We can reason things through and decide what will result in the best quality of life.

Tom
True. My point wasn't that animals are good role models, it was that if something is natural you can trace the same behavior throughout nature. (Not that eating your own feces is a normal behavior, but more along the lines of social behavior of animals.) However, it did not work out as I wanted it to.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
There's nothing that people do that isn't natural. Even the most depraved acts are completely natural, arising from natural impulses, however misapplied. We're not supernatural creatures.

The one and only rubric for judging the morality of something like homosexuality is whether it causes demonstrable harm. Nobody has yet been able to demonstrate that it does, only that some ancient people found certain manifestations of it troublesome. Christianity isn't about what some ancient people felt was icky, and it's not about obeying laws or commandments; it's about love and breaking down barriers like those.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That wasn't an argument. It was establishing that although the other guy was Jewish, he clearly only knows random names of sects as he mixed them altogether sometimes repeating himself with synonymous names and sometimes listing names that were ethnic categories rather than sects.
I see. Thanks for the clarification. I'd feared I was sticking my foot in my mouth.
 

Mycroft

Ministry of Serendipity
Tradition is important to me as a Catholic. I'm not a fan of changing things just because the modern world thinks we should.

So you're not a fan of changing inherently homophobic and sexist views and rules within Catholicism?

I always found it amusing that Catholics wouldn't allow women in their ranks, but deify The Virgin Mary.

But anyway, that aside, rather than changing a tradition because society tells you to do so, how about changing a tradition because it's the kinder thing to do?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're missing the point there. Many people end up as atheists precisely because they grow up in a rigid tradition that they find incompatible with reason and modern values. If the only choices are intellectual and moral bankruptcy or ditching religion altogether, a lot of conscientious folk are going to pick the latter. It behooves people who actually care about the Christian tradition not to force that ultimatum on people. Fundamentalism is one of those things that people think is helping to defend the faith, but in fact it's killing it by removing options and fostering a strict us-vs.-them mentality.

As for having a lot to lose for leaving, you can use scare tactics and in-group exceptionalism/tribalism all you want. If people decide they don't actually believe any of that stuff anymore, it isn't going to make them stay. Pretty much all the people I know who came out of an all-or-nothing, hardline religious background are now incapable of seeing religion in any sort of positive terms. They left because their consciences wouldn't allow them to stay, and now they're not coming back. If that keeps happening, the only people sitting in the pews will be the ones who wouldn't know love if it bit them on the *** and held on. In fact I've seen churches where that was the case, and it's not pretty.
I've been embroiled in those kinds of churches, and it's T.O.X.I.C.!!!

To refer to the OP, I'd say that a pro-gay stance is not only tenable, but necessary for the church.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Here's my take on homosexuality. It is unnatural (because I haven't ever seen a couple of animals have gay sex) but we must allow it. In Romans chapter 1 it says that God gave them over to the desires of their flesh. This tells me that God sort of threw up his hands on the issue and said fine. Some people just choose to learn the hard way about things, and God lets them find out for themselves. He warns them of the consequences but this isn't good enough for some people. So what God did tells me that all the pray the gay away stuff is really incapable of convincing the person they are wrong, experience does. So you know what? Let gay people get married. Let them find out for themselves whether or not it is a good thing. What we experience= truth.
My take is the same as that of the behavioral sciences community: It's a natural and healthy orientation for people. I suspect the "consequences" (if society stops marginalizing these people) are the same as for heterosexuals.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
I've been embroiled in those kinds of churches, and it's T.O.X.I.C.!!!

To refer to the OP, I'd say that a pro-gay stance is not only tenable, but necessary for the church.

This was my point exactly but based on the current process. If religion doesn't want to contradict itself, it needs to improve upon its processes.

The OP wanted to argue that tradition is correct. He chose some arbitrarty time among the early Jews and Christians that has no correlation to today. Well, if those early folks believed in superstitions or early pseudo science in the name of religion, do we have to uphold those values now? Absolutely not without furhter merit.

Tradition supported such things as racism and segregation. It definitely didn't oppose slavery. Not saying that all tradition is wrong but there's more fundamental processes that shows actual correlation in determining the tenable position of society or any sub-organizations of society including religion.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
So you're not a fan of changing inherently homophobic and sexist views and rules within Catholicism?

I always found it amusing that Catholics wouldn't allow women in their ranks, but deify The Virgin Mary.

But anyway, that aside, rather than changing a tradition because society tells you to do so, how about changing a tradition because it's the kinder thing to do?

I agree with you but could I add to the kinder thing to do but also the logical thing to do? An organization cant continue to contradict itself if it wants to sustain its position in society.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
True. My point wasn't that animals are good role models, it was that if something is natural you can trace the same behavior throughout nature. (Not that eating your own feces is a normal behavior, but more along the lines of social behavior of animals.) However, it did not work out as I wanted it to.

RedDragon, could I politely ask that when you do come to a new conclusion and if you do, that you could present it here in this thread? =)

I would appreciate your continuing perspective.

Thanks
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Well as a Christian I could just say that at the fall the whole of creation was subject to the futility of sin, that includes animals.
So... originally, you thought that there were no gay animals, and that this supported your position. Now, you acknowledge that there are many gay animals and think that this supports the same position.

It seems to me that you've just admitted that your position isn't based on reason.
 

RedDragon94

Love everyone, meditate often
So... originally, you thought that there were no gay animals, and that this supported your position. Now, you acknowledge that there are many gay animals and think that this supports the same position.

It seems to me that you've just admitted that your position isn't based on reason.
I just believe that as a human I can't always trust my intuition.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
Hello Norman,

I was in fact trying to keep it back on topic, in the quote you cited. As I said, we shouldn't be talking about Mormonism since the topic is Christianity. Unfortunately, others keep bringing it up.

Norman: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are Christians; there is no confusion about this post on my part. You seem confused and in your own mind stating in this thread who you think is Christian and who is not. You are the one that is not staying with the OP.
 

Norman

Defender of Truth
You wanna know why I think that the LDS will come to grips with reality before most Christian denominations do? Because they have a clear method and not millions
of illiterate believers to reach.
Its my second favorite thing about LDS. 12 guys can get together and redecide what God really meant. And the saints will get behind it.

Norman: Hi Tom, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have already come to grips about homosexuality. My Church has made it very clear that marriage is between one man and one
woman. What is it about this statement that you do not understand? When the quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the first presidency get together about an issue it is called revelation from God.


My first favorite is the family/ community part. Once the 12 Bishops announce that it is family that matters, even if it's two guys and an adopted child, the LDS will circle the wagons and defend gay marriage like nobodies business.

Norman: Hi Tom, don't hold your breath on that one. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has again, made it clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.

The RCC can't do that. They must ignore the issue for at least a century before admitting that they were miserably wrong about something. All the people who were taught wrong must die off before the Pope admits errors on the part of the Church.
Tom
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has again, made it clear that marriage is between one man and one woman.
@Norman

They've changed their mind on this before.
Their original marriage position was the most Scriptural one. Then they changed to the 19th century position. Soon they will change again to the 21st.
Tom
 
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