Is progressive revelation believable?

[Dawnofhope]

My understanding, please correct me if wrong, is that the Baha'i perspective on evil is similar to the Catholic one I outlined earlier, at least according to Abdu'l-Baha in Some Answered Questions:

Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.

In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.​

This is very close to St. Augustine's description of the non-existence of evil in the fourth century, as a privatio boni (absence of good):

Absence of good - Wikipedia

“Evil is the privatio boni (absence of good): a mere nothing”–St Augustine

So, I think Baha'is don't believe evil exists either in any real, metaphysical sense.

What is the Jewish and Islamic position, I wonder? I've never directly studied that issue in their theologies in isolation, so I can't quite recall off the top of my head.

Viewing evil as the absence of good, as darkness is the absence of light is perhaps the most useful statement that can be made as to the question of evil. However Shoghi Effendi has also said evil exists.

We know absence of light is darkness, but no one would assert darkness was not a fact. It exists even though it is only the absence of something else. So evil exists too, and we cannot close our eyes to it, even though it is a negative existence. We must seek to supplant it by good,

Bahá'í Reference Library - Unfolding Destiny, Pages 457-458

I had not realised the Catholic position was so similar to the Baha’is. For me personally, that’s another big tick for Catholicism.

I imagine there is huge diversity as to how Jews, Muslims and Christians view evil and perhaps the most relevant factor is the extent to which sacred writings are viewed literally or metaphorically.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes that was the topic of the OP, but not of the exchange we were having. I'll bring you back to topic then, with a direct question, since you conveniently went all around it with more irrelevant stuff. Do you believe that Hindus think your faith is evil. Yes, or no.

That is easily a big NO. Do some people continually state an intent of the Baha'i, that a Baha'i did not post and did not have, a big yes.

That happens a lot across many different discussions and I as a Baha'i can put my hand up and pull that plank from my eye as well. I see that it is that persons choice, whatever they see is the purpose of their reply.

RF has been good to learn how to change the way we look at things and the way we react to things.

All the best, regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That is easily a big NO. Do some people continually state an intent of the Baha'i, that a Baha'i did not post and did not have, a big yes.

That happens a lot across many different discussions and I as a Baha'i can put my hand up and pull that plank from my eye as well. I see that it is that persons choice, whatever they see is the purpose of their reply.

RF has been good to learn how to change the way we look at things and the way we react to things.

All the best, regards Tony

Good to see you withdrew your insinuation. Thanks.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I imagine there is huge diversity as to how Jews, Muslims and Christians view evil and perhaps the most relevant factor is the extent to which sacred writings are viewed literally or metaphorically.

Shoghi Effendi has told us the Catholic background is a strong foundation of faith.

I seem to remember many chats with Vouthon on a Christian Forum.

What a great day, hope you and all are well.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

While Hindus don’t see the Abrahamic Faiths as evil there does tend to be a clear sense of superiority that some Hindus express, albeit indirectly, when comparing Hinduism to the Abrahamic Faiths. There does tend to be an accompanying trend towards overtly or subtly disparaging Abrahamic Faiths. In some instances its little better than the prejudices I’ve heard expressed from some Christians about Hinduism.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I see on happening on this thread and on all the threads where Baha’is and their adversaries hang out was aptly described by Abdu’l-Baha in Paris Talks, so there is no need for me to put it in my own words.

“Those who would have men believe that religion is their own private property once more bring their efforts to bear against the Sun of Truth: they resist the Command of God; they invent calumnies, not having arguments against it, neither proofs. They attack with masked faces, not daring to come forth into the light of day.” Paris Talks, p. 103

“But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.” Paris Talks, p. 106

Have fun. I am out of here to go and talk to some atheists who are more rational because they are not mired in religious beliefs that have no use in the modern world.

A little addendum: I do not see the Christians attacking the Baha'i Faith and they are the ones that would be expected to attack us, given the claims Baha'u'llah made.... Interesting.

I feel much more closely allied with Christians than any other religion and in fact I have Christian music playing while I am on forums all day and night.

 

[CG Didymus]

When Jesus was asked the most important commandment He refers to Deuteronomy 6:4-6 and tell us to love God and to love our neighbour (Matthew 22:35-40). This is a universal teaching and just as relevant now as it was when Jesus and Moses taught it.



I am not aware of one verse from the Baha’i writings that supports a dogmatic insistence on a linear approach. Its useful when going from Judaism to Christianity, from Hinduism to Buddhism and from Islam to the Baha’i Faith. Its not useful going from Hinduism to Judaism and from Judaism to Buddhism for obvious reasons.

Thanks, I would agree that people are ever advancing, and disagree with a linear progression from one messenger and his religion to the next.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm already several pages behind, but here is some questions I have from earlier posts.

The Messenger's life and teachings are the actual proof about who they say they are, it's all in the details of their lives and teachings you just have to investigate it for yourself.

We don't know about the real lives of many of them. Did Krishna play a flute and have his way with the gopi's? Did Moses kill an Egyptian and part the sea? Did Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead and walk on water? I would say probably not, but those are part of the story of their lives.

The the teachings of progressive revelation makes perfect sense. Do you appreciate chapters of a book, do you like sequels of a movie series?

To me, each religion is more like a different book by a different author.

About avataras in Hinduism, a section of our people (Vaishnavas) believe that there are ten major avataras.

So little is said about Hinduism, so I doubt that there is any official Baha'i answer as to why those other avatars are not mentioned.

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new revelation and a new calendar, if they're still working from an old revelation then they're not a true Manifestation. Another thing to ask is whether ther teachings is mainly based on hate, than they're not a true Messenger.

All of them brought a new calendar? Or, did their followers start counting days and years from a significant event in their prophets life? And, what if there was no new calendar, then they weren't a true messenger?

And then from Hinduism, we have one branch of it saying there were 10 different avatars? And an avatar I do believe is an incarnation of one of the Hindu Gods, like I think Krishna was an incarnation of Vishnu. So, if we want to get technical, can Baha'is really get behind beliefs like that, since Vishnu is only one part of the supreme Godhead. He is not the one God of the Baha'is?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Shoghi Effendi has told us the Catholic background is a strong foundation of faith.

I seem to remember many chats with Vouthon on a Christian Forum.

What a great day, hope you and all are well.

Regards Tony

Well Pope Francis says the Muslims worship the same God as the Christians. That is the complete opposite approach take by many non-Catholic Christians who claim Muslims worship a different God and will even state Catholics are not even Christians!

Shoghi Effendi has made clear:

A Catholic background is an excellent introduction to the Faith, and one that Mrs. ... should feel gratified for having had. Though doctrines of the church today are no longer needed -- as the Father Himself has come, and thus fulfilled the mission of Christ the Son yet the foundation they lay of spiritual discipline, and their emphasis on spiritual values and adherence to moral laws, is very important and very close to our own beliefs." (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to two believers, August 17, 1941; Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 491)

Directives from the Guardian: 107 JESUS (Virgin Birth of)

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha'i teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church."

Messages to Canada:

"The beloved Guardian has directed me to write you, that he feels it is time for the Canadian Baha'is, in their teaching work, to concentrate, to the extent possible, on bringing Catholics into the Faith. There are a vast number of French Canadians who are of Catholic persuasion. They would make fine Baha'is, and if representative members could be brought into the Faith, it will add prestige to the Faith, and help solidify its institutions. Thus, to the extent possible, the friends should do what they can to attract Catholics and then confirm them in the Faith."

Abdu'l-Baha wrote of His travels to Montreal in The Tablets of the Divine Plan:

"Before my departure, many souls warned me not to travel to Montreal, saying, the majority of the inhabitants are Catholics, and are in the utmost fanaticism, that they are submerged in the sea of imitations, that they have not the capability to hearken to the call of the Kingdom of God, that the veil of bigotry has so covered the eyes that they have deprived themselves from beholding the signs of the most great guidance, and that the dogmas have taken possession of the hearts entirely, leaving no trace of reality. They asserted that should the Sun of Reality shine with perfect splendor throughout that Dominion, the dark, impenetrable clouds of superstitions have 525 so enveloped the horizon that it would be utterly impossible for any one to behold its rays.

"But these stories did not have any effect on the resolution of Abdul Baha. He, trusting in God, turned his face toward Montreal. When he entered that city he observed all the doors open, he found the hearts in the utmost receptivity and the ideal power of the Kingdom of God removing every obstacle and obstruction. In the churches and meetings of that Dominion he called men to the Kingdom of God with the utmost joy, and scattered such seeds which will be irrigated with the hand of Divine Power. Undoubtedly those seeds will grow, becoming green and verdant, and many rich harvests will be gathered. In the promotion of the divine principles he found no antagonist and no adversary. The believers he met in that city were in the utmost spirituality, and attracted with the fragrances of God. He found that through the effort of the maid-servant of God, Mrs. Maxwell, a number of the sons and daughter of the Kingdom in that Dominion were gathered together and associated with each other, increasing this joyous exhilaration day by day. The time of sojourn was limited to a number of days, but the results in the future are inexhaustible. When a farmer comes into the possession of a virgin soil, in a short time he will bring under cultivation a large field. Therefore I hope that in the future Montreal may become so stirred, that the melody of the Kingdom may travel to all parts of the world from that Dominion and the breaths of the Holy Spirit may spread from that center to the East and the West of America." (Baha'i Scriptures, p. 524)

Further:

"The day after His arrival in Montreal 'Abdu'l-Bahá went for a drive, and sighting the magnificent Roman Catholic Church of Notre Dame, He went in. When He came out, standing in the porch, He turned to those who were in His company and told them to take a lesson from that very church. It was the total self-abnegation of the apostles of Christ which had raised that splendorous edifice in a land far, far from the scene of their labours. Those disciples, said 'Abdu'l-Bahá, made a pact to go out into the wide world, preach the Gospel, and accept every tribulation for the sake of their Master. They stood by their pledge, and not a single one of them ever returned. And there beside them, He told that company, stood the concrete evidence of the selfless efforts of the disciples of Christ. Some years before, when perils surrounded Him on all sides, 'Abdu'l-Bahá had written in His Will and Testament:"

(H.M. Balyuzi, Abdu'l-Baha - The Centre of the Covenant, p. 259)

So Both Abdu’l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi were very positive about Catholicism.

 

[Vinayaka]

While Hindus don’t see the Abrahamic Faiths as evil there does tend to be a clear sense of superiority that some Hindus express, albeit indirectly, when comparing Hinduism to the Abrahamic Faiths. There does tend to be an accompanying tendency towards overtly or subtly disparaging Abrahamic Faiths. In some instances its little better than the prejudices I’ve heard expressed from some Christians about Hinduism.

And Baha'is don't express prejudice in repeatedly saying their faith is the ONE for this age?

(I think everyone feels that their own religion is the right one for them, and can generally explain why that religion makes more sense to them than any other. Merely pointing out differences isn't hatred though. It's not some hate-filled agenda, as I've been accused of.)

 

[Trailblazer]

And Baha'is don't express prejudice in repeatedly saying their faith is the ONE for this age?

From a logical point of view, it either is or it isn't the religion for this age. This has nothing to do with what people believe, it is all related to God and what God has done or not done since God is the one who reveals religions.

I think everyone feels that their own religion is the right one for them, and can generally explain why that religion makes more sense to them than any other.

I can understand why people pick the religion that makes sense to them, because it has to make sense if we are going to believe it, but I cannot understand why people think of religion in terms of the right fit for their personality. I can only think of religion in terms of being the truth from God and what God wants me to follow. Buddhism might fit my personality better than Baha'i, but I I have to believe in the religion that makes the most sense to me, which is Baha'i.

 

[oldbadger]

In a way I feel sorry for any Baha'i who comes to this forum fresh. They aren't privy to the fact that we've been through the very same discussions and points that they bring up with several other Baha'is for the last 7 or 8 years. So there is nothing at all new to us. It's just same old tired argument after same old tired argument, always stated as if it were just simple fact, not even prefaced by 'I believe' or 'Baha'i's believe', and not realising that this type of proselytising just drives people away. All this despite the evidence of new questioners realising right away all the fallacies, and having more sense than some of us old die-hards, by just leaving.

It's sad, because Baha'u'llah reiterated some good ideas. Sure they weren't original or particularly inspiring, but neither are they all that 'evil' as some would accuse us of thinking. Shucks darn.

They probably were quite original and radical in their time, given the context.

All true.
I enjoyed reading the Seven Valleys as an example of your point about Bahauallah.
Bahauallah the author could write with artistry.
But Bahai the would-be World government? Terrifying.
And Bahai the historical claims? Irritating.

 

[Vinayaka]

All true.
I enjoyed reading the Seven Valleys as an example of your point about Bahauallah.
Bahauallah the author could write with artistry.
But Bahai the would-be World government? Terrifying.
And Bahai the historical claims? Irritating.

Outside of my own version of Hinduism, I actually know more about the Baha'i faith than any other faith on this planet, because of this forum.

 

[Vinayaka]

From a logical point of view, it either is or it isn't the religion for this age. .

Not logical to me. To me, that's like saying one particular proof of the Pythagorean Theorem is the right one. In truth, there are many.

 

[oldbadger]

@od19g6
Hi....... in an earlier post you wrote:-

Some of the laws in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas is for a future civilization, they're not for right now.

That's right.
We aren't worried about 'right-now'. Right now Bahai has no influence in the World with regard to Laws, policing, etc. But we do take interest in what any furute Bahai World would be like.
Now: How many death penalties are written for legislation if Bahai should ever succeed to become a Theocracy in a country, or the World?

Surely you would think that the world will always need police because people have free will to do some sort of crime.

Indeed. Naughty people! And so in your enlightened Bahai Spiritual World Bahai would field armed police. True?

Well the Bab was the Prophet forerunner of Baha'u'llah is the similar way john the baptist was a forerunner of Jesus Christ.

And so .... is it possible that the Bab's wishes could be enacted in a strongly Bahai World?

 

[oldbadger]

Outside of my own version of Hinduism, I actually know more about the Baha'i faith than any other faith on this planet, because of this forum.

....... and that makes your knowledge extremely valuable.
It does.....

 

[oldbadger]

The problem is you approach this subject in your thoughts, in this day and not with what was offered by Baha'u'llah and what will be known in the future.

It is all but unfounded speculation. To which you have chosen to see in a negative light.

The first thought to consider is the Death Penalty is still law in many places that choose not to use it. That does not have to change as that is also allowable under Baha'i Law.

What has not been considered that in the future, people may not be able to live with tha crimes they have committed against others, they may long for that penalty as it is the ultimate penalty for the crime committed and wipes the slate clean.

But that is also speculation.

RegardsTony

Tony. We are safe from any clouds of Theocratic Bahai in the present day.

We discuss Bahai as it hopes to become.

Your post, above, looks as if a Death Penalty on the Statute books is ok, really. True?

 

[Dawnofhope]

And Baha'is don't express prejudice in repeatedly saying their faith is the ONE for this age?

(I think everyone feels that their own religion is the right one for them, and can generally explain why that religion makes more sense to them than any other. Merely pointing out differences isn't hatred though. It's not some hate-filled agenda, as I've been accused of.)

Baha’is believe Bahá’u’lláh to be the Manifestation of God for this day. That is the Baha’i belief as you have your Hindu beliefs in reincarnation, moksha and gurus. The Baha’i beliefs about Hinduism are a far cry from pointing an accusatory finger at Hindus proclaiming “Idol worshiping followers of Satan” as some Christians have done. Instead we say Hinduism is a religion of Divine origins, believe Krishna to be a Manifestation of God and readily acknowledge the many enlightened teachers to emerge from Hinduism that are not mentioned in our writings. Our writings say very little about Hinduism as you know.

I don’t believe you have a hateful agenda and have never read any Baha’i make such an accusation. OTOH in the 3 years I’ve been on this forum I have read literally hundreds of posts from you critical of the Baha’i Faith. I haven’t seen that many posts from you criticising Islam or Christianity so do wonder why? You are not the only one on this forum who ‘appears’ to have a particular interest or preoccupation in the Baha’i Faith. Most people who come across a religion they disagree don’t even bother to say anything. Not that it worries me for one moment as I genuinely like you and enjoy talking to you. I imagine the other Baha’is feel the same way. But it does mystify me somewhat.

On the Interfaith Council we have a couple of followers of Ron Hubbard’s Church of Scientology. Now there’s a faith I really struggle with and would like to criticise. I never do of course. Why would I give oxygen to something that seems to me to be so crazy?

 

[Vouthon]

All true.
I enjoyed reading the Seven Valleys as an example of your point about Bahauallah.
Bahauallah the author could write with artistry.
But Bahai the would-be World government? Terrifying.
And Bahai the historical claims? Irritating.

Another 'bump' for the Seven Valleys.

It is a gorgeously written text, in the style of the great Sufi Persian epics like Attar's Conference of the Birds and Rumi's Masnavi.

I read it many years ago and found it aesthetically beautiful, as well as rich in imagery and mysticism.

Baha'u'llah knew his Persian literature and could write with erudition, that's for sure.

But agreed on the theocracy / divine law / government side of the equation. That's also my biggest issue with Baha'i theology.

Unsurprisingly, coming at the Baha'i scriptures from a Christian perspective, I found the Valleys, Iqan and Hidden Words very pleasing but the "divine law" book, the Aqdas less so (its a much more Islamic Hadith / Jewish Deuteronomy style-text, in its law-giving nature. I'd be curious to know Islamic thoughts on it, as I imagine they might be fairly positive as to its style and tone in light of the importance of the shariah to Islam).

 

[Vouthon]

The Baha’i beliefs about Hinduism are a far cry from pointing an accusatory finger at Hindus proclaiming “Idol worshiping followers of Satan” as some Christians have done.

Ah, we Catholics have also heard that directed our way for many centuries now, by certain quarters of our Protestant brethren. I'm in great sympathy with the Hindus

I've been told far worse.