Is progressive revelation believable?

[TransmutingSoul]

When you exile a law breaker, you just kick 'em out, you don't need any court cases then.

But in Bahauallah's case he had highly influential family with close connections to powerful Russian friends. His exile to Constantinople was simply that, and not an incarceration. He lived there with servants and his audience was sort by leaders in that city, many of whom he snubbed.

The pictures Bahai tries to paint are misinformation in the extreme. Even a Pharisee can research and find that, Tony

Again facts are good. Hope you can find some.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Wow I just realized... You guys are so Freaking Sweet guys. Keep it going. Bahai ya... Getting people in jail in the middle east ya.

If it is not news to you to know that in the Islamic world they put atheists in prison and execute them if the atheists ever acknowledge their beliefs. Almost the same countries that put Baha'is in prison and execute the.

From: There Are 13 Countries Where Atheism Is Punishable by Death

"The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. With the exception of Pakistan, those countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy, i.e., the renunciation of a particular religion. Pakistan, meanwhile, imposes the death penalty for blasphemy, which can obviously include disbelief in God. "

 

[shunyadragon]

When you exile a law breaker, you just kick 'em out, you don't need any court cases then.

But in Bahauallah's case he had highly influential family with close connections to powerful Russian friends. His exile to Constantinople was simply that, and not an incarceration. He lived there with servants and his audience was sort by leaders in that city, many of whom he snubbed.

The pictures Bahai tries to paint are misinformation in the extreme. Even a Pharisee can research and find that, Tony

Misrepresentation of Baha'u'llah's journeys in exile and prison stint in Akka. At the end the Ottoman authorities did not find it worthwhile to keep him in the Akka prison allowed him to reside in Akka in a house abandoned because of the plague where no one else would live. Are you aware of the nature of the stay by Baha'u'llah in the Akka prison?

 

[MikeDwight]

If it is not news to you to know that in the Islamic world they put atheists in prison and execute them if the atheists ever acknowledge their beliefs. Almost the same countries that put Baha'is in prison and execute the.

From: There Are 13 Countries Where Atheism Is Punishable by Death

"The countries that impose these penalties are Afghanistan, Iran, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Nigeria, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Yemen. With the exception of Pakistan, those countries all allow for capital punishment against apostasy, i.e., the renunciation of a particular religion. Pakistan, meanwhile, imposes the death penalty for blasphemy, which can obviously include disbelief in God. "

Well I stand by Something here. So wait all Presbyterianism in the United States is a bold-face total lie, a total 180 misdirect, and I don't understand this, why you put all muslims in America and you put all atheists in Iran and they all get capital punished and the world's dead. Do we get the Bahai's plane tickets or anything?

 

[darklydreaming]

There is no conflict among the Baha'is concerning the journey after this world. There is no concept of Hell nor purgatory in the Baha'i writings. It is described as a journey throuh many spiritual worlds beyond this physical world.

I'm not even sure how to respond to your post considering that it feels like you're talking at me and not to me, but you're just wrong.

"Were these people to shake off the slumber of negligence and realize that which their hands have wrought, they would surely perish, and would of their own accord cast themselves into fire—their end and real abode" (Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i Iqan, para. 182).

"What I desire, however, O my God is that [...] the infidels may be seized with trembling and may return to the nethermost fire, the abode ordained for them by Thee through the power of Thy sovereign might" (Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 185).​

The concern for harmonizing and unity among all religions is the central concept of the Baha'i Faith.

The problem is that you do this at the expense of truth and of the authenticity of the religions in question.

These ancient worldviews that divide the world based on egocentric views of God that their way is the only way, is in total conflict with an all powerful omnipotent God that is a Creator of ALL humanity, and apparently by your claim and that of all ancient tribal religions believe their way is the only way.

As I said, the Baha'i Faith explicitly sets itself up as the only way:

"No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation" (Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 183).​

IF God exists, God is universal in terms of his personal relationship with humanity since humans were first human your narrow exclusive interpretation of your scripture is in conflict with the existence of a universal omnipotent Creator God of ALL humanity. By the way, so is the ancient tribalism of Judaism and Islam.

This does not follow (see Romans 9). God has a people, namely his elect, who he is trying to save and who he will exclusively save. God's relationship with Pharaoh and the Egyptians was not the same as his relationship with Moses and the Israelites, yet who can argue with God over those whom he chooses? For God does whatever he pleases, and he has mercy on whomever he pleases.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not even sure how to respond to your post considering that it feels like you're talking at me and not to me, but you're just wrong.

Excuses do not give you an out not to respond directly. Unfortunately your position is a highly biased agenda. You are also aggressively talking at me from an agenda. I gave my citations. Other citations you offer does not change the fact of my citations are not wrong.

"Were these people to shake off the slumber of negligence and realize that which their hands have wrought, they would surely perish, and would of their own accord cast themselves into fire—their end and real abode" (Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i Iqan, para. 182).

"What I desire, however, O my God is that [...] the infidels may be seized with trembling and may return to the nethermost fire, the abode ordained for them by Thee through the power of Thy sovereign might" (Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 185).​

The problem is that you do this at the expense of truth and of the authenticity of the religions in question.

That is a different question and based on the objective evidence ALL religions are of questionable authenticity including yours. Particularly since your Bible is of severely questionable provenance and mostly of unknown authorship to qualify in terms of the narrow 'truth' claims..

I believe the objective 'truth' is the venue of God and not fallible humans simply because too many people make diverse conflicting claims as to what is 'truth' as you do.

As I said, the Baha'i Faith explicitly sets itself up as the only way:

"No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation" (Gleanings From the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 183).​

This like the sky is blue on a clear day at noon on the 4th of July. All religions and belief systems make claims of the validity of belief. There is a distinct difference between the absolute truth claims you make, and the relative evolving nature of Revelation over time that is the view of the Baha'i Faith. No, the possibility of everlasting life is the journey through many spiritual worlds, and not the fires of Hell, maybe Purgatory, and the exclusive club of heaven for only the sincere ones in this life.​

This does not follow (see Romans 9). God has a people, namely his elect, who he is trying to save and who he will exclusively save. God's relationship with Pharaoh and the Egyptians was not the same as his relationship with Moses and the Israelites, yet who can argue with God over those whom he chooses? For God does whatever he pleases, and he has mercy on whomever he pleases.

Yes God does whatever he pleases and this is not determined by your narrow interpretation of ancient scripture of limited provenance.

 

[darklydreaming]

Excuses do not give you an out not to respond directly. Unfortunately your position is a highly biased agenda. You are also aggressively talking at me from an agenda. I gave my citations. Other citations you offer does not change the fact of my citations are not wrong.

Again, you refuse to respond in detail to much of what I've said and just resort to rhetoric.

That is a different question and based on the objective evidence ALL religions are of questionable authenticity including yours. Particularly since your Bible os of severely questionable provenance and mostly of unknown authorship.

Biblical authorship is an entire discussion in itself, but Baha'u'llah himself affirms traditional authorship of both the Torah and the Gospels.

"[T]he Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).

"The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances."

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/compilations/bible.pdf​

Yes God does whatever he pleases and this is not determined by your narrow interpretation of ancient scripture of limited provenance.

What exactly about my interpretation is narrow? The fact that it conflicts with yours?

 

[oldbadger]

Again facts are good. Hope you can find some.

Regards Tony

I was a Commercial Detective, Tony.
In retirement I found lots of facts relating to Bahai.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was a Commercial Detective, Tony.
In retirement I found lots of facts relating to Bahai.

Then present the solid 'facts' you have found and accuse Baha'u'llah of.

Again solid facts are welcome and with them we have something to discuss that is not speculation.

RegardsTony

 

[shunyadragon]

I was a Commercial Detective, Tony.
In retirement I found lots of facts relating to Bahai.

What you presented were not the facts concerning the exile of Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I was a Commercial Detective, Tony.
In retirement I found lots of facts relating to Bahai.

I have spent some part of my career in Local Government as Local law officer and town planning enforcement which also requires investigation and enforcement. One thing which is soon clear, is that in obtaining facts in any given situation is no easy task and that Inattentional Blindness, people's personalities and biases play a large part in determine what is Truth in any given situation. It also requires one's own understanding of what they are looking for and trying to enforce and heart dedicated to nothing but the truth. Self interests can not play any part.

Thus in this matter, being a commercial Detective has little to do with determining the Truth about the claim Baha'u'llah has made and if He was trustworthy and truthful. In fact it may hinder if one already has a bias, because one may pick a side before they start.

Personally that is how I have seen your Detective work to date, but you can choose to empty the cup and start afresh. I have had to quite a few times.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

Biblical authorship is an entire discussion in itself, but Baha'u'llah himself affirms traditional authorship of both the Torah and the Gospels.

The Baha'i Faith does not negate the later corruption and altering of the text when compiled and edited.

"When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet (from a letter written to an individual on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, 11 February 1944)"

"[T]he Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).

Yes, the Ten Commandments and the reaffirmation of pure Monotheism, the rejection of images and idols are acknowledged as the words of the Revelation of Moses, but this does not conirm the accuracy of Exodus, which was compiled much later.

"The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances."

https://bahai-library.com/pdf/compilations/bible.pdf [/quote]

The words of Jesus Christ are acknowledged as accurate as recorded during his life, but the gospels were potentially edited and redacted in their present form as cited above.​

What exactly about my interpretation is narrow? The fact that it conflicts with yours?

The following reflects you narrow one sided interpretation.

I'm not even sure how to respond to your post considering that it feels like you're talking at me and not to me, but you're just wrong.

The problem is that you do this at the expense of truth and of the authenticity of the religions in question.

 

[oldbadger]

Then present the solid 'facts' you have found and accuse Baha'u'llah of.

Again solid facts are welcome and with them we have something to discuss that is not speculation.

RegardsTony

Rubbish! You've been presented with facts with hundreds of posts and scores of threads over several years.

 

[oldbadger]

What you presented were not the facts concerning the exile of Baha'u'llah.

No? Want to present your idea of the facts?

 

[oldbadger]

I have spent some part of my career in Local Government as Local law officer and town planning enforcement which also requires investigation and enforcement.

What is a local law officer, Tony?

How long did you serve for?

One thing which is soon clear, is that in obtaining facts in any given situation is no easy task ............ Self interests can not play any part.

So.... are you telling all on RF that Bahais are detached from bias and self-interest when they debate about Bahai?

Thus in this matter, being a commercial Detective has little to do with determining the Truth about the claim Baha'u'llah has made and if He was trustworthy and truthful.

That's another problem with Bahai..... it likes to make sweeping statements about what it has no clue about.

My work over decades adjusted my mindset to look at claims, statements and allegations with a quite different mindset, fairly useful, I have found, even in retirement.

In fact it may hinder if one already has a bias, because one may pick a side before they start.

Here you go again! You must jhave a poor memory, because when I started posting with you and other Bahais I was nothing but friendly. It's what I researched and found since then that adjusted my mindset. The early threads can show this. My past work just leaves me with a better memory than you, it seems.
And when Bahais get backed up in debate they get to throwing the personal stuff around, Tony.

You see? We get to know you.

Personally that is how I have seen your Detective work to date, but you can choose to empty the cup and start afresh. I have had to quite a few times.

Regards Tony

It's not how you see it, but how detached readers see it, Tony.
I have not classed you as agenda-free or detached for a long time now.

 

[shunyadragon]

No? Want to present your idea of the facts?

I do not spoon feed the illiterate!

Your responsible for your own lies. You did not cite any direct Baha'i source when you made the accusations concerning the exile.

 

[shunyadragon]

Rubbish! You've been presented with facts with hundreds of posts and scores of threads over several years.

Not from you.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not how you see it, but how detached readers see it, Tony.
I have not classed you as agenda-free or detached for a long time now.

How detached are you?
How detached are those other readers?
How agenda-free are those other readers?

 

[oldbadger]

I do not spoon feed the illiterate!

Your responsible for your own lies. You did not cite any direct Baha'i source when you made the accusations concerning the exile.

Am I an illiterate, or just a liar?
I knew you could not answer. Bahai sources on Bahauallah's exiles are misinformation and members here can show that so easily.

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahai sources on Bahauallah's exiles are misinformation and members here can show that so easily.

Please show why they are misinformation.