Is progressive revelation believable?

[MikeDwight]

So Wiki gives "
The myth starts with prince Hwanung ("Heavenly Prince"), son of Hwanin. The prince asked his father to grant him governance over Korea.[6] Hwanin accepted, and Hwanung was sent to Earth bearing three Heavenly Seals and accompanied by three thousand followers.[6] The prince arrived under the holy tree of sandalwood (Sintansu 신단수, 神檀樹)[7] on the holy mountain, where he founded his holy city.[6]

At the time of his reign, Ungnyeo or Ungnye (웅녀, 熊女)[7]—who was a bear—and a tiger were living in a cave near the holy city, praying earnestly that their wish to become part of humankind might be fulfilled.[6] Ungnyeo patiently endured weariness and hunger, and after twenty-one days she was transformed into a woman, while the tiger ran away for it could not tolerate the effort.[6] The woman Ungnyeo was overjoyed, and visiting the sandalwood city she prayed that she might become the mother of a child.[6]

Ungnye's wish was fulfilled, so that she became the queen and gave birth to a prince who was given the royal name of Dangun, the "Sandalwood King".[6] Dangun reigned as the first human king of Korea, giving to his kingdom the name of Joseon, "Land of the Morning Calm".[6]"

I'd heard that this "Trinity" of the Prince Hwanung who can reveal Hwanin of, wait they don't get into the third part, maybe its the Tiger. Ya Tiger Trinity! Its a Syncretic faith in Korea you should learn about! Whatever. So that manifests as a Korean Holiday "Foundation Day".

Judge that with Aegukga and "Chuseok" as proud and open fruits of Presbyterianism. The whole western World is an innovation, their anthem is only 100 years old a Product Result of Westerners or current circumstances. I want to talk about the house duties of women like the First Christian in Korea! I'm not there to be a Romanist cult with followers of Westernism who never got any Bible or literature of any good. Lets talk about women, and they only got a couple rooms to be in prisons.

 

[MikeDwight]

I mean did you guys know that the first Baptized Yangban after accepting the Gospels Luke and John in 1887 is well documented. The New Testament would be completed in 1887 in Korea. The Old Testament would only be translated and published in part or whole in 1913. That means Korea Would No Longer Be an Independent Country, after the +300,000 census of Believers in Presbyterian Parishes of Korea of 1900. So what have you guys found as powerful central tenet in the Old Testament?

 

[shunyadragon]

I don't take to its logical conclusion from my presentation that all religions are syncretic.

1 : the combination of different forms of belief or practice
2 : the fusion of two or more originally different inflectional forms
"
Far more extreme than I think a few limited Korean writers have assumed to characterize faith. 1 Kings 18:28

I did not say you did believe that is the logical conclusion. I do not believe that all or most religions are necessarily syncretic. I concluded from your previous post that the logical conclusion is that all religions including Christianity could be man made and syncretic.

More to the point of your phrasing, a lot of our practices are spelled out in Revelation. Revelation has a Heavenly Choir to sing the Praises of God for all Eternity, and that's the exalted position of Mankind. The Holy Sunday is from the Old Testament.

OK this is a statement of belief based on your interpretation which there are many diverse versions from the human perspective as you asserted describing the differences between religions and belief systems differ from the human perspective,

Objectively, without considering what I 'believe' concerning the Baha'i Faith I could easily conclude that all religions evolve syncritistically based on the culture and beliefs of earlier religions, and based on the evidence.

I know we're just here to promote Baha'i''* In that case, its so cute, don't let me offend at all. That's interesting. Ya maybe all religions are a syncretic thing.

Acrid sarcasm gets you nowhere in a dialogue, it is not so cute, and contributes nothing. Yes, it is possible that ALL religions are man made and syncretic based on the logic of the first post I cited of yours.

I said that with little persuasion in their original religion that original missionaries choose to Judge Miracles, Judge and investigate Miracles, and bring belief practices of other religions into their own ascension.

Not totally how you worded the first post I responded to. This could very well be true of the history of Christianity. There are definitely beliefs and practices in Christianity that are not in common with Judaism, bit in common with other religions and cultures.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You don't think he was challenged?
They got rid of of him out of Persia!

Tony........... you just cannot see the simple truth, imo.


Schools? He probably received private tuition; after all, his family were hugely rich and privileged, as was he.

But, regardless of all, he obviously knew nothing about economics, as he admitted himself in his own hand.

I do not believe him.

You can think and speculate all you wish. That is not Justice OB and never will be.

Justice told me to see for myself and I found Baha'u'llah was treated with great injustices. All because He made a claim that the power greedy Muslims would not accept.

The Quran demands they treat such cases with Justice and to be Just to Baha'u'llah would have meant acceptance, as He broke no Law and supported His Message with the Quran, thus they reverted to falsities.

In this day instead of clearing this up, people prefer to continue those falsities, rather than face a fact, that the Message may be indeed true.

What will be made clear is that Baha'u'llah was a speaker of truth and committed no crime, unless one sees it a crime to be called by God to give a Message to humanity, a message most wait for.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

As with all ancient scriptures they represent a fallible human view of God and God's relatinship to humanity.

Okay, I can agree with that... The NT was written by fallible men. But, that' not what Christians believe. They thought what they were getting was a book that told the truth about God and Jesus.

I hope od19g6 answers this also. How were Christians supposed to interpret those verses that alluded to there being a place in the spirit world called hell?

 

[CG Didymus]

By their works you shall no them.

So then Baha'is believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a false prophet for claiming to be the return of Christ?

 

[Bird123]

By this logic all beliefs including yours are a creation of humanity, even your view that we are spiritual beings. This no more nor less based on an assumption of belief.



Baha'is do not build walls and acknowledge the diversity of human spiritual experience with our Creator. You on the other hand narrow the way to know the Divine by your own methods and exclude the ways of the religions of the world.



Your answer is just as subjective and yes, concerning what is Divine education, and personal because you acknowledge no other source than yourself concerning what is Divine education interpreting the world around you to justify your belief.



If you acknowledge the existence of God and Divine education, than you acknowledge that in one way or another God defines what is right or wrong. Where do you draw the lin? Based on what source?

Baha'i acknowledge the evolving nature of human knowledge of spiritual morals and ethics over time. The Baha'i Principles of the Baha'i Faith are the foundation, and spiritual laws evolve over time for the benefit of humanity, and the independent investigation of truth to explore our beliefs and nature of our physical existence.



Baha'is clearly acknowledge the genius behind everything. In the Baha;i Faith the purpose of Creation is the reflection of the attributes of God in all possible worlds and universes. The nature of our universe that we describe through science is in fact the nature of God.,

OK, tell my why God does these, start to understand God, beyond your own personal opinion.



This is not much different from the view of the Baha'i Faith, except it was revealed as part of Revelation from God ,ore than 159 years ago, and yours is personal opinion, unless you can come up with another source..



Again . . . this closely resembles the Baha'i belief. What is your 'source.'



Baha'is do not believe 'poof your in heaven.'



At present you do not have a good knowledge of the Baha'i Faith to begin answering these questions. Example: Hated or condemned sinners?!?!?!' There is mo Hell nor purgatory and Sinners are not hated.



How come so many people come up with so many different conclusions from the 'lessons we are living.' Some horrendous, some bad, and some good. by what standards do distinguish them.



Who revealed this to you?



The Baha'is also see not only this world, but all possible worlds as a MASTERPIECE.

Yes, the universe is there for us to discover, no problem from the Baha'i perspective.

What is the source for your ANSWERS?

your quote:By this logic all beliefs including yours are a creation of humanity, even your view that we are spiritual beings. This no more nor less based on an assumption of belief.
MY ANSWER:If one through telescopes discovers the Earth revolves around the sun, this is no longer a Belief. We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this.

Your quote:You on the other hand narrow the way to know the Divine by your own methods and exclude the ways of the religions of the world.
MY ANSWER: I merely point to where one can Discover the Real Truth for oneself. I speak of religion for what it is.

Religion can be brainwashing for many many reasons. They will tell you it comes from God, however when they value petty things, that proves it does not come from God. One must ask the question. Is God and truth really what one seeks?

your quote:Your answer is just as subjective and yes, concerning what is Divine education, and personal because you acknowledge no other source than yourself concerning what is Divine education interpreting the world around you to justify your belief.
MY ANSWER: God's actions are everywhere. Put the pieces together. I do not want you to Belief anything. If you open enough doors, you will Discover the Real Truth for yourself. I point the way, however your journey has never been up to me. Choose what you want to Discover. If you have decided you already know, then you do not really want to know since there is always more to Discover.

your quote:If you acknowledge the existence of God and Divine education, than you acknowledge that in one way or another God defines what is right or wrong. Where do you draw the lin? Based on what source?
MY ANSWER:I guess my explanation went over your head. Each of us will decide what are the best choices. God is above the petty things of hating and condemning. You would best give them up as well.

your quote:Baha'i acknowledge the evolving nature of human knowledge of spiritual morals and ethics over time.
MY ANSWER: Truth does not evolve over time. On the other hand, knowledge will change people and their choices

your quote:OK, tell my why God does these, start to understand God, beyond your own personal opinion.
MY ANSWER:I have spent a lifetime on my journey How much time do you really have? Put the puzzle together. See where it leads you. There are too many whys to answer and simple answers won't do.

your quote:except it was revealed as part of Revelation from God ,ore than 159 years ago, and yours is
MY ANSWER: Who told you it was revealed as a part of the relevation from God? It certainly wasn't God. That is not how God operates.

your quote:What is your 'source.'
MY ANSWER: If you put enough of the pieces of the puzzle together, open doors lead to more knowledge and more doors to be opened. Who knows, you might just bump into God. At this point God will no longer be a Belief.

your quote:Sinners are not hated.
MY ANSWER: When you class people as sinners, that is not LOVE.

your quote:How come so many people come up with so many different conclusions from the 'lessons we are living.' Some horrendous, some bad, and some good. by what standards do distinguish them.
MY ANSWER: Isn't that a part of learning and discovering. God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. The different views supply a wider view.

THe first thing God pointed out to me is that Mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? How many different conclusions came on that journey?

If man was meant to fly, God would have given him wings. See, there are many excuses one can come up with not to work at Discovery. Discovery takes work.

Finally, somehow my typing started highlighting everything. I guess I need to restart this old computer. Anyway, the highlighted words mean nothing extra.

WEll, That is what I am seeing. It's very clear and apparently highlighted. Hmmm? I'm off to work on this computer.

 

[shunyadragon]

MY ANSWER:If one through telescopes discovers the Earth revolves around the sun, this is no longer a Belief. We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this.

You have not provided any 'objective experience of any 'direct experience.' Still waiting . . .

MY ANSWER: I merely point to where one can Discover the Real Truth for oneself. I speak of religion for what it is.

So far you have not pointed at anything coherent, Still waiting . . .

Religion can be brainwashing for many many reasons. They will tell you it comes from God, however when they value petty things, that proves it does not come from God. One must ask the question. Is God and truth really what one seeks?

Accusation without anything, Of course one must search for answers.

MY ANSWER: God's actions are everywhere. Put the pieces together. I do not want you to Belief anything. If you open enough doors, you will Discover the Real Truth for yourself. I point the way, however your journey has never been up to me. Choose what you want to Discover. If you have decided you already know, then you do not really want to know since there is always more to Discover.

your quote:Your answer is just as subjective and yes, concerning what is Divine education, and personal because you acknowledge no other source than yourself concerning what is Divine education interpreting the world around you to justify your belief.

your quote:If you acknowledge the existence of God and Divine education, than you acknowledge that in one way or another God defines what is right or wrong. Where do you draw the lin? Based on what source?
MY ANSWER:I guess my explanation went over your head. Each of us will decide what are the best choices. God is above the petty things of hating and condemning. You would best give them up as well.

Too vague and general to be meaningful. Still waiting . . .

your quote:If you acknowledge the existence of God and Divine education, than you acknowledge that in one way or another God defines what is right or wrong. Where do you draw the lin? Based on what source?

MY ANSWER: Truth does not evolve over time. On the other hand, knowledge will change people and their choices.

The ultimate knowledge of God, of course, does not, but human knowledge evolves over time by the evidence.

MY ANSWER:I have spent a lifetime on my journey How much time do you really have? Put the puzzle together. See where it leads you. There are too many whys to answer and simple answers won't do.

What you describe is your opinion. What is your source beyond this?

MY ANSWER: Who told you it was revealed as a part of the relevation from God? It certainly wasn't God. That is not how God operates.

MY ANSWER: If you put enough of the pieces of the puzzle together, open doors lead to more knowledge and more doors to be opened. Who knows, you might just bump into God. At this point God will no longer be a Belief.

What you describe is your opinion. What is your source beyond this?

MY ANSWER: When you class people as sinners, that is not LOVE.

I do not classify people as sinners.

your quote:How come so many people come up with so many different conclusions from the 'lessons we are living.' Some horrendous, some bad, and some good. by what standards do distinguish them.

MY ANSWER: Isn't that a part of learning and discovering. God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. The different views supply a wider view. [/quote[

Did not answer Again . . .: How come so many people come up with so many different conclusions from the 'lessons we are living.' Some horrendous, some bad, and some good. by what standards do distinguish them. . . .

THe first thing God pointed out to me is that Mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? How many different conclusions came on that journey?

If man was meant to fly, God would have given him wings. See, there are many excuses one can come up with not to work at Discovery. Discovery takes work.

Not a coherent response.

WEll, That is what I am seeing. It's very clear and apparently highlighted. Hmmm? I'm off to work on this computer.

You just confirmed it is your opinion.

 

[shunyadragon]

So then Baha'is believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is a false prophet for claiming to be the return of Christ?

Actually, I do not believe that the Baha'i Faith makes any comment Mirza Ghulam Ahmad either way, but it remains the case that: By their works you shall know them.

 

[shunyadragon]

Okay, I can agree with that... The NT was written by fallible men. But, that' not what Christians believe. They thought what they were getting was a book that told the truth about God and Jesus.

I hope od19g6 answers this also. How were Christians supposed to interpret those verses that alluded to there being a place in the spirit world called hell?

The Baha'i Faith does not negate the positive spiritual values and teaching that are found in the Bible and evolve over time, but it does acknowledge the human element in scripture and beliefs that reflect the time and beliefs of the Revelation.

 

[darklydreaming]

The Baha'i Faith does not negate the positive spiritual values and teaching that are found in the Bible and evolve over time, but it does acknowledge the human element in scripture and beliefs that reflect the time and beliefs of the Revelation.

You negate the centrality of Christ and the true meaning and purpose behind his death and resurrection. He did not die in vain (Galatians 2:21).

 

[oldbadger]

You can think and speculate all you wish. That is not Justice OB and never will be.

Justice told me to see for myself and I found Baha'u'llah was treated with great injustices. All because He made a claim that the power greedy Muslims would not accept.

The Quran demands they treat such cases with Justice and to be Just to Baha'u'llah would have meant acceptance, as He broke no Law and supported His Message with the Quran, thus they reverted to falsities.

In this day instead of clearing this up, people prefer to continue those falsities, rather than face a fact, that the Message may be indeed true.

What will be made clear is that Baha'u'llah was a speaker of truth and committed no crime, unless one sees it a crime to be called by God to give a Message to humanity, a message most wait for.

Regards Tony

Tony
He broke laws in Persia, not least of which was apostasy.

 

[oldbadger]

That's the criteria when you read the baha'i scriptures which is the current divine revelation for this time and age.

With the above in mind, please could you tell me what Bahauallah taught about wealth and materialism?

I've asked you before, I think

 

[shunyadragon]

You negate the centrality of Christ and the true meaning and purpose behind his death and resurrection. He did not die in vain (Galatians 2:21).

Like all ancient religions you demand your interpretation ONLY, and salvation ONLY by your way citing the Bible selectively to justify your way ONLY. The Baha'i Faith does not negate the importance of Christ, but have a more spiritual not physical importance of the nature of Christ's birth life and death. We do not believe Christ was born, lived and died in vain.

 

[darklydreaming]

Like all ancient religions you demand your interpretation ONLY, and salvation ONLY by your way citing the Bible selectively to justify your way ONLY.

I'm seeing a conflict with what liberal Baha'is such as yourself say and what Baha'u'llah actually taught. If one does not recognize the Manifestation of his age, then he is already in Hell by virtue of his denial, so stop pretending that your religion is so much better and so much more tolerant than all others; the Baha'i Faith sets itself up as the only way. Now, I don't need to quote the Bible selectively. Name any passage and we can have an in depth discussion about its proper exegesis. The fact is that Baha'is so often seem more concerned with harmonizing the Bible with what they already believe and less with interpreting it according to what can be known of the intentions of the original authors.

The Baha'i Faith does not negate the importance of Christ, but have a more spiritual not physical importance of the nature of Christ's birth life and death. We do not believe Christ was born, lived and died in vain.

Except Paul didn't view it that way, and neither did the early Christians. The centrality of Christ's burial and the empty tomb in the Resurrection narrative, with the former being stressed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, utterly refutes any idea of the Resurrection having a purely spiritual sense. It is pretty clear that what is raised in verse 4 is the same thing that was buried, otherwise there would have been no reason to mention the burial at all. The context makes this pretty clear, since the resurrection of the dead specifically signifies for Paul that the physical, perishable body should become imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:42-43); and the Greek ἀνάστασις in verse 4 specifically refers to a physical, bodily resurrection.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm seeing a conflict with what liberal Baha'is such as yourself say and what Baha'u'llah actually taught. If one does not recognize the Manifestation of his age, then he is already in Hell by virtue of his denial, so stop pretending that your religion is so much better and so much more tolerant than all others; the Baha'i Faith sets itself up as the only way. Now, I don't need to quote the Bible selectively. Name any passage and we can have an in depth discussion about its proper exegesis. The fact is that Baha'is so often seem more concerned with harmonizing the Bible with what they already believe and less with interpreting it according to what can be known of the intentions of the original authors.

There is no conflict among the Baha'is concerning the journey after this world. There is no concept of Hell nor purgatory in the Baha'i writings. It is described as a journey throuh many spiritual worlds beyond this physical world.

The concern for harmonizing and unity among all religions is the central concept of the Baha'i Faith. The conflicting ancient exclusive tribalism of each religion, church or division thereof each claiming to be the only true religion is the focus of the ancient religions that rise out of the Middle East,

Except Paul didn't view it that way, and neither did the early Christians. The centrality of Christ's burial and the empty tomb in the Resurrection narrative, with the former being stressed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, utterly refutes any idea of the Resurrection having a purely spiritual sense. It is pretty clear that what is raised in verse 4 is the same thing that was buried, otherwise there would have been no reason to mention the burial at all. The context makes this pretty clear, since the resurrection of the dead specifically signifies for Paul that the physical, perishable body should become imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:42-43); and the Greek ἀνάστασις in verse 4 specifically refers to a physical, bodily resurrection.

Of course the ancient world view of the Centrality of Christianity was the reality of the ancient world as with Judaism and Islam clinging to the ancient understanding of ancient scripture.

Not all Christians accept your narrow interpretation of the Bible, and there is conflict and division in Christianity, because of this.

These ancient worldviews that divide the world based on egocentric views of God that their way is the only way, is in total conflict with an all powerful omnipotent God that is a Creator of ALL humanity, and apparently by your claim and that of all ancient tribal religions believe their way is the only way.

IF God exists, God is universal in terms of his personal relationship with humanity since humans were first human your narrow exclusive interpretation of your scripture is in conflict with the existence of a universal omnipotent Creator God of ALL humanity. By the way, so is the ancient tribalism of Judaism and Islam.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Tony
He broke laws in Persia, not least of which was apostasy.

You are free to post all charges brought against the law and show any trial result.

Regards Tony

 

[MikeDwight]

Wow I just realized... You guys are so Freaking Sweet guys. Keep it going. Bahai ya... Getting people in jail in the middle east ya.

 

[oldbadger]

You are free to post all charges brought against the law and show any trial result.

Regards Tony

When you exile a law breaker, you just kick 'em out, you don't need any court cases then.

But in Bahauallah's case he had highly influential family with close connections to powerful Russian friends. His exile to Constantinople was simply that, and not an incarceration. He lived there with servants and his audience was sort by leaders in that city, many of whom he snubbed.

The pictures Bahai tries to paint are misinformation in the extreme. Even a Pharisee can research and find that, Tony

 

[Bird123]

If a person studies the actions of God, and starts to understand, a person will come to know God. God sees it all. If God sees how hard a person works to Discover the Real Truth, God might show up just to advance the lesson. On the other hand, if a person wants God at his beckon call, there is also a lesson that goes along with that.

God does not want to intimidate anyone's choices. God also works on multiple levels with multiple views. People see what they want to see. People are trying to shape this world to their view. Without a certain amount of knowledge about what is really going on along with a wide open mind, one would just come off confused with a real conversation with God. What real use is a conversation then?

We are but mere ants. Have you ever talked with an ant? A short conversation with God might take a person a week to understand all that was said and how much was missed that went over a person's head?

The first thing God pointed out to me was that mankind carries such a narrow view. This is the first thing we must all work on. All the secrets of the universe, all the answers surround us all and yet we are all blind to so very much.

I'm afraid there is no guaranty and apparently no short cut on a true journey to Discovery. On the other hand, there is no time limit on learning. With eternity to work with, it's just a matter of time when everyone will arrive.

I realize we all want things simple, however, in reality few things are. Knowledge does exist along the journey and beyond the mere surface.

Well, that's what I am seeing. It's very clear to me.