Is progressive revelation believable?

[od19g6]

He is the literal Son of God the Father in the flesh and the Firstborn in spirit.

But how can Jesus Christ be the 'literal' Son of God and the Firstborn in 'spirit' at the same time?

He is the only Savior and Redeemer. The only name whereby Man can be saved. The only advocate with the Father.

You may consider this:

NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN

Basis of Christian Belief:
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under
heaven given among men by which we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

1. Baha'u'llah is Christ Returned and therefore claims the same name "Christ."

2. "And I will write on him My new name .. ," (Rev 3:12) [the Return of Jesus will have a new name.]

3. "I still have many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth."
(John 16:12-13) [Spirit of Truth is a new name and another identity than Jesus as Christ says "he" will guide you, not "I" will guide you after "I (Jesus) go away."]

4. Isaiah prophesied Messiah's name would be Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14) which means "God with us" and not Jesus which means "He who saves." [Names therefore are titles in the Bible rather than surnames and refer to descriptions and roles rather than exact phonetic names. Christ is not the last name of Jesus. Therefore the Old
Testament prophecy of the Messiah being named Emmanuel is not literally fulfilled by Jesus' name but in fact "God with us" did happen spiritually with the
appearance of Jesus to the Jews.]

5. Jesus had many names: "... And his name shall be called Wonderful,
Counselor, the Mighty God, the
Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace ... (Isaiah 6-9:6) "These names could also be interpreted as applying to Christ's Return, and Revelations adds to the names of Christ's Return: "His name is called the Word of God" (Rev 19:13); "And He has on His robe and on His thigh a new name written: King of Kings and Lord of Lords" (Rev 19:16)

6. The prophet Elijah never died and ascended into heaven (2 Kings 2:11) but
returned in the spirit of Elijah yet in the body of John the Baptist according to Jesus (M," 17,10-13) even though John the Baptist himself denied he was literally the return of Elijah when asked by the Jews (John L19-21). Therefore by insisting that Baha'u'llah have the literal name "Jesus" and/or the same physical body of Jesus to be the Return of Christ, Christians make the same mistake the Jews did in denying Jesus because John the Baptist's name and body were not literally Elijah's.


ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND
MEN

Basis for Christian Belief:
"For there is one God; and one mediator between God and men, the man
Christ Jesus." (Tim 2:5)

I. Baha'u'llah is the Return of Christ Jesus and therefore is this one mediator.

2. "And I will write on him My new name ... " (Rev 3:12) [Return of Jesus will have a new name.]

3. Howbeit, when He the Spirit of Truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth."
(John 16,12,13) [Spirit of Truth is a new name as Christ says "he" will guide you,
not "I" will guide you. Some Christians say the Spirit of Truth came at Pentecost but, if this were true, the Christians would have all truth and the Trinity would not be a mystery and there wouldn't be 23,000 divisions of Christianity."]

4. "And [ will pray the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that he may
abide with you forever." (John 14:16) [There will be another helper than the one mediator, Christ Jesus.]

5. "For if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if! depart [ will send
Him to you." (John 16,7) [Christ again makes it clear that the helper that is to come has a separate identity from the physical one mediator Christ Jesus who is to "go away."]

 

[od19g6]

Does religion really account for the knowledge mankind has acquired over the generations?

Yes. When a Manifestation of God appears creative energies are released into the world even though the world aren't aware of it.

I have found no religion that understands God at all so what are they really teaching?

In my understanding religion comes to the world to let human beings know what they really are: spiritual beings.

We will never fully understand God, the only way we can know God is through His names and attributes.

Deep down. everyone knows God exists whether they know they know or not.

We by default the human being is a pure and noble creature. But we do need divine education that can only be given by the Manifestation.

That person doesn't think so.

You're right, that's why the divine teachings are the standard of teaching us what's right and what's wrong. It fine tunes the human being's spirituality.

 

[oldbadger]

You know I think that when we're having the conversation on topics such as religion, philosophy, theology etc. we have to be truthful and honest and do the best we can.

Absolutely!

Sometimes the things that goes on in religion if we don't have an answer to we have to be honest and say 'I don't know'.

Too true!

I sincerely believe that if you don't have an answer to something there's no shame in saying as of right now I don't know. Now there's always more to learn and discover, that's why I said the words 'as of right now'.

That's a good plan

You can ask why did Prophet Muhammad have more wives than the Qur'an said.

No.... I won't ask that because no Muslim has ever prosletised Islam to me anywhere, not here, not on RF, not in the streets. I accept and acknowledge Muslims absolutely. So I won't be studying Islam.

Why did Jesus Christ drove out the money changers by tipping over the tables? Did Jesus Christ lose His temper?

You obviously don't know what the Baptist's and Yeshua's mission was about. Yeshua's demonstration and (later) picketing within the Temple was absolutely justified; you just have to understand the reasons why.

I'm just making the point that a critic / sceptic can try and find an 'ahha' moment in religion, but we have to be careful about some people's mindset and intentions. That's why I say that it's a difference between questioning and asking questions. Questioning is when the person is already coming with the mindset of doubt and criticism. Asking questions on the other hand is the person coming to really want to know, gain more knowledge and seek a better understanding.

No Aha! moments for me on Bahai, I'm afraid.
If you would select a paragraph of anything that Bahauallah wrote I'll probably know the treverse of the coin on it. My late wife was a Bahai 50 years ago so I was amongst Bahais and Bahai for a long time.

That's why I said that when we're investigating an individual's claim of Messengerhood we have look at 'all' of the criterias not just isolate them. You will get the complete picture of the Messager if you 'combine' all of the criterias, that's how you weigh the Messengers to really see who they are.

I think I understand fairly clearly who Bahauallah was.

You can ask the question, do the Prophets / Messengers / Manifestations make mistakes? That would be an interesting question because what is ment by 'mistakes'. Did they ever they ever trip when they were walking? Did they ever lose a step when walking up?

I'm a Deist. Why would a Deist avidly seek out a Messenger of a God that is all of the galaxies, universes, etc? We're very small, you know...

The Messengers are human beings too living in the physical world but the role of divine Messenger is the part that is 'perfect' and 'infallible'

No perfection that I ever saw. Honestly.

 

[od19g6]

you just have to understand the reasons why.

Yes, and that's the point that I was making is that for some things in religion to the best we can to understand the reason why.

I'm a Deist. Why would a Deist avidly seek out a Messenger of a God that is all of the galaxies, universes, etc? We're very small, you know...

Well you know if it wasn't for the Messengers we wouldn't even know about God in the first place.

We're far from small, the human being has the potential to display all of the names and attributes of God at the highest level, in other words we are the most perfect creation.

 

[Earthtank]

Is progressive revelation believable?

No, as it seems to contradict previous revelations. If the new contradicts the old then 1) God has changed his mind today therefore, the previous people are in hell and that's disingenuous of God (and not a Godly quality) 2) God forgot what he previously revealed (another quality not fit for a God) 3) Previous Messengers and Prophets have lied in the past making them liar and not prophets therefore, we can't trust this new revelation. Basically, you are running in to contradictory issues that, by their very nature, contradict the message they are supposedly getting via revelation.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I see we need to change and that change will no doubt come.

That is why Allah sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the latest. Allah is prompt. Whenever need arises, he immediately sends someone.

 

[od19g6]

Is progressive revelation believable?

No, as it seems to contradict previous revelations. If the new contradicts the old then 1) God has changed his mind today therefore, the previous people are in hell and that's disingenuous of God (and not a Godly quality) 2) God forgot what he previously revealed (another quality not fit for a God) 3) Previous Messengers and Prophets have lied in the past making them liar and not prophets therefore, we can't trust this new revelation. Basically, you are running in to contradictory issues that, by their very nature, contradict the message they are supposedly getting via revelation.

Firstly I want to point out that there is no 'hell'. That was a misunderstanding by the followers of the revelations of old.

Why do you think the new revelation contradicts the old revelation and that the new revelation can't be trusted?

The spiritual teachings stays the same eternally but the social teachings change according to the capacity of the people of that age.

 

[Earthtank]

Firstly I want to point out that there is no 'hell'. That was a misunderstanding by the followers of the revelations of old.

That your opinion however, based off what i read, I (and i am sure that literally billions of others) would disagree that "Hell" was just a misunderstanding.

Why do you think the new revelation contradicts the old revelation and that the new revelation can't be trusted?

Give me an example of the new revelation and ill show you how it contradicts the old one.

the social teachings change according to the capacity of the people of that age.

This contradicts the old/previous revelations because the previous ones claim an objective morality God therefore, they cannot change overtime "according to the capacity of the people of that age" because then they were NEVER objective to being with. When something is objective it does not and cannot change over time otherwise, its subjective and religion, for the most part and its core and social teachings cannot be subjective because then its not from God because God is objective, not subjective in his laws

 

[od19g6]

That is why Allah sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the latest. Allah is prompt. Whenever need arises, he immediately sends someone.

But Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is still working off of islam. He hasn't founded a new and independent religion.

Even though he had good intentions:

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is like the mature and knowledgeable child among the other children in the classroom.

Baha'u'llah is like the actual adult educated Teacher of the classroom.

 

[firedragon]

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is like the mature and knowledgeable child among the other children in the classroom.

Baha'u'llah is like the actual adult educated Teacher of the classroom.

Why? Whats the difference?

 

[od19g6]

That your opinion however, based off what i read, I (and i am sure that literally billions of others) would disagree that "Hell" was just a misunderstanding.

No it's not my opinion. That's what Baha'u'llah the current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation has revealed in this time and age. The people of past age has essentially misunderstood what the term 'hell' really meant and the followers right now are still misunderstanding what that term mean. I doesn't matter if 'billions of others would disagree' Baha'u'llah has come to unsealed the scriptures and educate the people about what they really meant.

This contradicts the old/previous revelations because the previous ones claim an objective morality God therefore, they cannot change overtime "according to the capacity of the people of that age" because then they were NEVER objective to being with. When something is objective it does not and cannot change over time otherwise, its subjective and religion, for the most part and its core and social teachings cannot be subjective because then its not from God because God is objective, not subjective in his laws

The morality of God doesn't change, that's a spiritual teaching.

Like I said It's the social teachings that changes from age to age according to the the people's capacity of that time.

Examples of the social teachings of the revelation for this age are: the call for the planetary unity of the human species and the harmony between science and spirituality.

Give me an example of the new revelation and ill show you how it contradicts the old one.

Ok, how about this:



The Unity of God:

1. “The Lord our God is one Lord.” Christianity, (Mk 12:29)

2. “But just how many Gods are there?
One.” Hinduism, Upanishads

3. “He is God alone: God the eternal ...
and there is none like unto Him.” Islám, Qurán (112: 1-2,4)

4. “Bear thou witness that verily He is
God and there is no God but Him, the
King, the Protector, the Incomparable,
the Omnipotent.” Bahá’í, Tablet of Ahmad

5. “I am the Lord, and there is no other;
there is no God besides Me.” Judaism, (Isa 45:5)



Forgiveness of Sins

1. “I will make thee free from the bondage of sins. Fear no more.” Hinduism, Bhagavad Gita (18:66)

2. “Return ye to God and repent, that He,
through His grace, may have mercy upon
you, may wash away your sins, and forgive your trespasses.” Bahá’í, (Gl, p 130)

3. “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have
mercy upon him; and to our God, for He
will abundantly pardon.” Judaism, (Isa 55:7)

4. “Despair not of God’s mercy, for all sins doth God forgive. Gracious, merciful is He. And return ye to your Lord, and to Him resign yourselves...” Islám, Qurán (34:54-55)

5. “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be
forgiven the sons of men...” Christianity, (Mk 3:28)



The Quest for Peace

1. “... they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” Judaism, (Isa 2:4)

2. “Let us now abstain from taking life. That is a good thing that we may take up and do. And they will abstain from slaughter, and will continue in this good way.” Buddhism, Dialogues of Buddha

3. “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”
Christianity, (Matt 5:9)

4. “The believers are but a single Brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two [contending] brothers; and fear God, that ye may receive mercy.” Islám, Qurán (49:10)

5. “These fruitless strifes, these ruinous wars shall pass away and the “Most Great Peace” shall come.” Bahá’í, (PDC, p 116)


Show me the contradiction.

 

[od19g6]

Why? Whats the difference?

Well the criterias for a true and ligitament Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation is:

What do they actually teach? Do they practice what they teach? What prophecies do they fulfill from the scriptures of old?

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new independent revelation and a new calendar, they speak of another that is going to come after them or a return, and if the one who is claiming to be a Prophet still working from an old revelation then they're not a true Manifestation. Another thing to ask is whether ther teachings is mainly based on hate, if they are than they're not a true Messenger.

Some people think that it's always Messengers, that come very often, but the fact is the Messengers are rare individuals that appears around about every 1000 years and that they're always from the east.

I would like to use the analogy of a mature and knowledgeable child and an actual educated adult teacher. While the mature and knowledgeable child may have a big impact on the other children and they feel like they want to follow him that child will still be limited in what he can do because he's still a child and he's not actually been educated. But the actual adult teacher actually have the education to teach the children. So the educated adult teacher will have a far more more impact than the mature and knowledgeable child.

 

[Muffled]

You don;t believe the Baha'is have any what?

Nice negative insulting view of Islam.

It is obvious you do not believe in progressive revelation beyond what you believe. This is also true of the Jews who reject the Christian Revelation.

I believe they don't have any progressive revelation.

i don't intend to be insulting but I believe only wish to state the truth. When Muhammad came on the scene Arabia was steeped in idolatry. I view it as a positive thing that they were converted to monotheism.

I believe in order to believe in something I have to have valid evidence. So far no Bahai has presented any. I know why Jews don't want to believe in Christianity. It would be admitting that they have been wrong all these years.

 

[Muffled]

The Kitab-i-Iqan is that proof. The proof of a Progression of Messages from God and a proof that who wrote it, gave it from God.

If it is not its own proof, surely the Muslims would have been able to negate the strength of its arguments.

Regards Tony

I believe you think that but I am totally unfamiliar with it so I need excerpts and references.

 

[Muffled]

I am Baha'i and believe in the Revelation of the Kitab-i-qan, but proof is subjective to those that believe in this case. Yes, @paarsurrey believes he has proved the Kitab-i-qan and the Baha'i Revelation false, based on his assumptions and belief. This is the classic problem between the view of different religions, which can only be resolved by the touchstone of the heart.

I believe having the Holy Spirit as a guide I will be able to tell without having any pre-suppositions. So far all I have is one person saying one thing and another person another and both are self interested.

 

[firedragon]

Another way you know a true Manifestation is that thay come with a new independent revelation and a new calendar

Who's criteria is that?

 

[Earthtank]

Please do not be offended by anything i say as non of it meant to be confrontational however, i am just typing it out as it comes to and i am asking these questions out of genuine curiosity. I apologize in advance if anything offends you


I think you are missing the point

No it's not my opinion. That's what Baha'u'llah the current Prophet / Messenger / Manifestation has revealed in this time and age.

And that is his opinion that you happen to agree with which, billions upon billions will disagree with by providing evidence they deem credible, same way you are citing Bahaullah as credible.

The people of past age has essentially misunderstood what the term 'hell' really meant and the followers right now are still misunderstanding what that term mean.

Not only people of the past but, people of today as well. I am not saying i agree with you saying they are misunderstanding, what i am saying is that you have nothing credible to back it when you take the totality of baha's claims against Christians, Jews and Muslims. Also, please explain you assertion of how they misunderstood Hell and why your understanding is correct.

Baha'u'llah has come to unsealed the scriptures and educate the people about what they really meant.

Another contradiction, the scriptures were sealed and there's plenty of evidence that they are sealed until "judgement day". The new (baha faith) is contradicting the old (Muslim and Jew (maybe christian))

The morality of God doesn't change, that's a spiritual teaching.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity do NOT separate the spiritual from the physical so, under what basis does this statement have any validity? And how does it go in line with the previous scriptures you claim it does not contradict?

Examples of the social teachings of the revelation for this age are: the call for the planetary unity of the human species and the harmony between science and spirituality.

Please cite and show me where any of the teaching of the past explicitly called for dysfunction or disunity between science and spirituality? While i am not a Muslim, please cite where Islam has done this. You will quickly see that the Baha faith cannot exist in unity without contradict the past scriptures as the past scriptures themselves contradict each other. Seems you are failing to see and understand basic logic and the main differences between the past scriptures.

the call for the planetary unity of the human species

Not sure what the planetary part has anything to do with us but, what religion of the 3 i mentioned does NOT call for unity of humans?

The Unity of God:

You are carefully cherry picking here because you are leaving all the verses out of when all these religions do disagree and contradict each other yet, you are claiming the baha faith agrees with all. Utterly illogical. Also, what about the various Christian sects that believe in the trinity? why did you not quote that? Like i said, cherry picking


All regions I(as far as i know) talk about the forgiveness of sin and quest for peace. Why not quote the various degrading verses in Christianity about women? since the baha faith does not contradict them, I would assume you agree. So, now, please explain to me how and why Baha faith (as you claim don't contradict past scriptures) agrees with Exodus, Genesis and the others in regards to treatment to women.

• Ephesians 5:22-24 ...wives should submit to their husbands etc.
• 1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.
• 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 ...women should remain silent in the churches (and following).
• 1 Corinthians 11:3-16 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man (and following).
• Colossians 3:18 Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
• Peter 3:1-6 Wives in the same way be submissive to your husbands (and following).
• Titus 2: 4-5 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands so that no one will malign the word of God.
  
  

Genesis
2:22 Woman created from Adam's rib
3:16 Woman cursed: maternity a sin, marriage a bondage
19:1-8 Rape virgins instead of male angels

Exodus
20:17 Insulting Tenth Commandment, considering a wife to be property
21:7-11 Unfair rules for female servants, may be sex slaves
22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
38:8 Women may not enter tabernacle they must support

Leviticus
12:1-14 Women who have sons are unclean 7 days
12:4-7 Women who have daughters are unclean 14 days
15:19-23 Menstrual periods are unclean
19:20-22 If master has sex with engaged woman, she shall be scourged

Numbers
1:2 Poll of people only includes men
5:13-31 Barbaric adulteress test
31:16-35 "Virgins" listed as war booty

there are many more but, you get the idea,

Looking forward to your answer

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is why Allah sent Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the latest. Allah is prompt. Whenever need arises, he immediately sends someone.

I wish you always well and happy Aupmanyav.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe you think that but I am totally unfamiliar with it so I need excerpts and references.

In the Kitab-i-Iqan Baha'u'llah proves the Messages prior to Jesus and after Jesus.

This is an extract from part One:

".. And when the days of Moses were ended, and the light of Jesus, shining forth from the dayspring of the Spirit, encompassed the world, all the people of Israel arose in protest against Him. They clamored that He Whose advent the Bible had foretold must needs promulgate and fulfill the laws of Moses, whereas this youthful Nazarene, who laid claim to the station of the divine Messiah, had annulled the law of divorce and of the sabbath day—the most weighty of all the laws of Moses. Moreover, what of the signs of the Manifestation yet to come? These people of Israel are even unto the present day still expecting that Manifestation which the Bible hath foretold! How many Manifestations of Holiness, how many Revealers of the light everlasting, have appeared since the time of Moses, and yet Israel, wrapt in the densest veils of satanic fancy and false imaginings, is still expectant that the idol of her own handiwork will appear with such signs as she herself hath conceived! Thus hath God laid hold of them for their sins, hath extinguished in them the spirit of faith, and tormented them with the flames of the nethermost fire. And this for no other reason except that Israel refused to apprehend the meaning of such words as have been revealed in the Bible concerning the signs of the coming Revelation.... "

This is a link to the book. You can open and do a search on a keyword to find anything you wish to look for;

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

All the best.

RegardsTony

 

[MikeDwight]

Me too, but I call it syncretic. The problem with syncretism ( at least for me ) is it's sometimes confusing and makes my brain hurt. The old adage about going down the river with two feet in two different boats comes to mind. Trying to move efficiently down the river this way is a lot of work. A lot. Start adding more boats... 3 boats, 4 boats, 5 boats... It just gets harder and harder and harder to keep all those boats traveling in the same direction.

But I still can't help it; I am syncretic... sometimes to a fault.

What is a "Lie" in another Language? Religion and Culture/Language are so Thoroughly not similar or necessary. Make your proof that Haneullim - Wikipedia didn't create a Race. The Germanic Languages have an unknown backstory on "Gott" in German instead of God, While Greece has "Theus", with huge language variety in Orthodoxy, while the Latin-Supremacy of Catholicism uses unrelated "Deus" in all Languages.

A Muslim comes up to you knowing your story of Jesus Christ, and rejects you, and puts him an a Mohammad affirming status as one of the prophets along side the prophet Mohammad. Muslims are a 600 year later story to free the Byzantine Empire inhabitants.

Well call not having the Creation Discovered of a place Christians had never been to as Syncretism? I think that's total stupid. I think syncretic is a loss of distinct academic traditions, politics, and claims.