Is prostitution "immoral"?

[CarlinKnew]

Forced or not. It is still sexual exploitation.

Prostitutes exploit sexual desire in order to accumulate wealth. Their clientele exploit financial desire in order to achieve sexual satisfaction. It is merely an exhange of goods for services.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Forced or not. It is still sexual exploitation.

The "sexual" part is a given; prostitution is about sexuality. But out of curiosity, what do you consider to constitute "exploitation"? In general, how do you think we should go about determining whether a job is exploitative or not?

 

[Super Universe]

Prostitution is immoral to the society that has the means to help someone who feels they have no other choice but to become a prostitute to survive and yet the society allows this to happen.

It is also immoral for an adult to take advantage of someone underage.

Other than that, I see nothing wrong with consenting/desiring adults doing this.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

How is it exploitation if the person in question is willing? If I decide to have sex with more than one man at once, am I being exploited sexually by them? If I decide that I'll have sex with a particular guy IF he pays me so much money, how is he exploiting me?

It would kinda make me question where your self-esteem and self-value as a woman is at.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

I like the way they handle the problem in Sweden. This is an old news paper article but it is pertinent to conversation.


Selling sex is not illegal in Sweden, but buying is — a radical approach to prostitution that faced ridicule when it was introduced nine years ago.
Now, while Americans are preoccupied with the downfall of New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer in a prostitution scandal, some countries are considering emulating the Swedish model, which prosecutes the client but views the prostitute as an exploited victim.

Officials say the changed approach has reduced the demand for prostitutes and reshaped attitudes toward the sex trade.

"We don't have a problem with prostitutes. We have a problem with men who buy sex," said Kajsa Wahlberg, of the human trafficking unit at Sweden's national police board.

She said foreign law enforcement officials and politicians are coming to Sweden in droves to learn more about its 1999 law.

On Friday, Wahlberg was meeting with police officials from the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal but where authorities have closed some brothels in a crackdown on organized crime in Amsterdam's red light district.

In January, a high-level British delegation came to study the Swedish approach as Britain reviews its own prostitution laws, which prohibit soliciting and loitering for sex, but not buying sex.

Norway's government plans to propose a Swedish-style prostitution law after Easter.

Under Sweden's so-called "Sex Purchase Law," paying for sex is punished by fines or up to six months in prison, plus the humiliation of public exposure. A handful of Swedish judges have been caught up in prostitution scandals, including a Supreme Court justice who was fined in 2005 after admitting to paying for sex with a young man.

Pimps and brothel keepers are also prosecuted, but not prostitutes, because they are viewed as victims, treated as commodities in the sex trade.

While authorities judge the new system a success, critics question whether it has really reduced prostitution or merely pushed it off the streets into more isolated and dangerous surroundings. Wahlberg concedes that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimates the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003.

She says police know from eavesdropping on human trafficking rings that Sweden is considered bad business because of its tough stance.

"They are calculating profits, costs and marketing and the risk of getting caught," Wahlberg said. "We're trying to create a bad market for these activities."
Sweden prostitution law attracts world interest - USATODAY.com

 

[CarlinKnew]

That Swedish law is very strange. To allow the sale but prohibit the purchase of a service is comparable to only prosecuting drug buyers and not dealers.

 

[CarlinKnew]

Were does the growth of the import export of kidnaping sex slaves fit into to your formula?

Human Trafficking

Obviously I oppose kidnapping and slavery. The flaw in your implication is exposed when you apply it to any other occupation. Would all farm labor be immoral if some children were being kidnapped and forced to work in the fields?

 

[Sleeppy]

The reasons behind WHY someone considers it "immoral". Or did you not see where I asked "why or why not"? Since morality is subjective then there are different opinions of what is moral and what isn't and why those things are what they are.

That's not what I'm asking.. I'm asking WHY it matters. What are you arguing for prostitution for?

 

[Zoe Doidge]

What we should be doing is legalizing brothels and having them run by the government, it's a win-win. The government makes money from it. The prostitutes get paid, provided with protection and they have easy access to contraception and STI tests. Their clients don't need to worry about getting arrested.

 

[CarlinKnew]

What we should be doing is legalizing brothels and having them run by the government, it's a win-win. The government makes money from it. The prostitutes get paid, provided with protection and they have easy access to contraception and STI tests. Their clients don't need to worry about getting arrested.

I don't think our society is ready for that, but it is a good idea. Voters would oppose it out of fear that their partners would cheat on them because of the easier, less risky access to prostitution.

 

[Drolefille]

It would kinda make me question where your self-esteem and self-value as a woman is at.

This seems to say that self-esteem/self-worth MUST be low to consider having sex for money. Personally I'd argue that having sex for money is less indicative of self-esteem problems than being in a sugar daddy relationship for money.

However, lets look at the facts

Forced prostitution, sexual slavery, "survival" prostitution, etc.
These are quite obviously bad. Survival prostitution is not freely chosen, it is coerced/forced with the necessity of having sex with someone to avoid being kicked out or to be given food, etc. It's not the equivalent of working to maintain a home, or to afford to grocery shop.

I think everyone here has agreed with that, so lets put this aside even though it is a serious problem.

Now, do you see prostitution as any different than pornography?

I fully see that the current state of prostitution as well as the social perception of the practice lead to the objectification of women and supports the patriarchal 'order' of things. Pornography has often, and still is often, viewed in the same light. However just like with porn, I do not think prostitution necessarily must be these things. There are women-run porn studios and magazines that actually create material for the female eye, and lack the oppressive/repressive attitudes of Big Jiggly Butts and Hos #12.

I don't think banning prostitution solves the problem, and would support at least decriminalizing it for the prostitutes, and punishing the johns, but would prefer some level of regulation - ban pimping, accept escorts, create a system that protects the women since it's going to happen anyway. Minimize harm.

Now as for whether it's immoral for the woman? I don't think so. If she's choosing it - and I mean truly choosing it - then it's no more or less revealing of her self-worth than if she were a stripper. Our sexuality's value does not lie in it being unused or protected, but in our being in control of it. If she's not choosing it, or engaging in it purely due to survival/addiction, then that's exploitation.

But there's no scenario I can see that is reasonable, that involves it being immoral for the prostitute (referred to as female throughout, most male prostitutes service male clients whether they're gay or straight ((gay for pay)) but they're not as common by any means) unless she believes it to be wrong for herself.

How do you feel about other sex (or similar) workers - like professional dominatrices who have no actual sex with a client, modern 'sacred' prostitutes who may or may not have sex and promote tantric practices, strippers, etc?

 

[Kerr]

To answer the OP, I dont like prostitution. It is mainly because it goes against my own values regarding sexuality. But I would not call it immoral, its just something I dont like.

I like the way they handle the problem in Sweden. This is an old news paper article but it is pertinent to conversation.


Selling sex is not illegal in Sweden, but buying is — a radical approach to prostitution that faced ridicule when it was introduced nine years ago.
Now, while Americans are preoccupied with the downfall of New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer in a prostitution scandal, some countries are considering emulating the Swedish model, which prosecutes the client but views the prostitute as an exploited victim.

Officials say the changed approach has reduced the demand for prostitutes and reshaped attitudes toward the sex trade.

"We don't have a problem with prostitutes. We have a problem with men who buy sex," said Kajsa Wahlberg, of the human trafficking unit at Sweden's national police board.

She said foreign law enforcement officials and politicians are coming to Sweden in droves to learn more about its 1999 law.

On Friday, Wahlberg was meeting with police officials from the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal but where authorities have closed some brothels in a crackdown on organized crime in Amsterdam's red light district.

In January, a high-level British delegation came to study the Swedish approach as Britain reviews its own prostitution laws, which prohibit soliciting and loitering for sex, but not buying sex.

Norway's government plans to propose a Swedish-style prostitution law after Easter.

Under Sweden's so-called "Sex Purchase Law," paying for sex is punished by fines or up to six months in prison, plus the humiliation of public exposure. A handful of Swedish judges have been caught up in prostitution scandals, including a Supreme Court justice who was fined in 2005 after admitting to paying for sex with a young man.

Pimps and brothel keepers are also prosecuted, but not prostitutes, because they are viewed as victims, treated as commodities in the sex trade.

While authorities judge the new system a success, critics question whether it has really reduced prostitution or merely pushed it off the streets into more isolated and dangerous surroundings. Wahlberg concedes that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimates the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003.

She says police know from eavesdropping on human trafficking rings that Sweden is considered bad business because of its tough stance.

"They are calculating profits, costs and marketing and the risk of getting caught," Wahlberg said. "We're trying to create a bad market for these activities."
Sweden prostitution law attracts world interest - USATODAY.com

Yeah, I like the Swedish approach to.

 

[Sayi Nazir]

One, not all prostitutes are female. Two, how is it much different from a masseuse?

<snip>

Men can't be raped, don't you know that?

Working in a fast food restaurant is good honest work, prostitution always has been and always will be seedy. Not many fast food places require you to exchange bodily fluids with a stranger.

You've obviously never worked in fast food.

Prostitution is immoral, in my eyes, for a number of different reasons. Placing the Marxist ideologies (selling one's self to earn another profit) concerning labor in a capitalist society aside; there are the spiritual ramifications of enticing another astray. We should be working to better each other, not looking to help another one down a path of material entrapment solely for your own profit.

However, I'm not trying to demonize prostitutes either. The issue(s) lie with the economic model as a whole. As long as you're required to have currency to buy anything then there is going to be someone somewhere who does something like prostitution, selling drugs, selling fast food (which, in the case of McDonald's, and some others, should be considered drugs) and, just in general, other seedy activities.

Sayi Nazir

 

[Kerr]

Men can't be raped, don't you know that?

Is that a joke or not? I cannot tell, but in case it is not, men can definately be raped .

 

[Drolefille]

Men can't be raped, don't you know that?



You've obviously never worked in fast food.

Prostitution is immoral, in my eyes, for a number of different reasons. Placing the Marxist ideologies (selling one's self to earn another profit) concerning labor in a capitalist society aside; there are the spiritual ramifications of enticing another astray. We should be working to better each other, not looking to help another one down a path of material entrapment solely for your own profit.

However, I'm not trying to demonize prostitutes either. The issue(s) lie with the economic model as a whole. As long as you're required to have currency to buy anything then there is going to be someone somewhere who does something like prostitution, selling drugs, selling fast food (which, in the case of McDonald's, and some others, should be considered drugs) and, just in general, other seedy activities.

Sayi Nazir

I'll leave aside the general economic objections too since that's a whole other issue but -

What do you mean enticing someone else astray? Are you assuming all who seek out prostitutes are cheating on a partner or is it the act itself that is straying from...?

If you object purely to the seediness, what about a high class escort? Isn't that the equivalent of a fine meal?

 

[Sayi Nazir]

I'll leave aside the general economic objections too since that's a whole other issue but -

What do you mean enticing someone else astray? Are you assuming all who seek out prostitutes are cheating on a partner or is it the act itself that is straying from...?

If you object purely to the seediness, what about a high class escort? Isn't that the equivalent of a fine meal?

My apologies for my vagueness!

I [kind of] follow the dharmic teaching that we're all spiritual beings bound to this realm with the help of a "beast soul" [nefesh behemah]. This beast soul allows us to reside here but also can be seen as a curse as it tempts us to "sin" (for lack of a better word) through gluttony, promiscuity - excess in general. We need food to survive, we need sex to propagate, etc - but too much causes our spiritual development to suffer.

By having prostitutes available it makes it easier to feed one of these excesses.

Sayi Nazir

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Obviously I oppose kidnapping and slavery. The flaw in your implication is exposed when you apply it to any other occupation. Would all farm labor be immoral if some children were being kidnapped and forced to work in the fields?

.

Well, your just to fast in your response I had already deleted the question.

 

[Draka]

It would kinda make me question where your self-esteem and self-value as a woman is at.

Nice attempt at diversion, but it didn't work. Your opinion of someone's perceived self-esteem or value doesn't matter. I asked how I would be being exploited if I decided to do those things. If I'm the one making the choice to do something sexual with, or even for, someone else, how am I being sexually exploited?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Nice attempt at diversion, but it didn't work. Your opinion of someone's perceived self-esteem or value doesn't matter. I asked how I would be being exploited if I decided to do those things. If I'm the one making the choice to do something sexual with, or even for, someone else, how am I being sexually exploited?

I would probably label you a masochist if the practice of self-debasement gave you pleasure.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

If the prostitute wants to be one, then go for it.

Making it illegal makes it dangerous (e.g. hooker has a weapon for protection from officers, hookers cannot get checked for STDs very often without being suspected plus lack of money while trying to hide that she is a prostitute).