Is Quran copied from Jewish Bible/Torah? : Quran did not copy from Jewish Bible/Torah

[firedragon]

I am the only one providing them.

You? biased opinion and nothing more.


You cannot attack education and knowledge, with ignorance on the topic.


I have years of intense study here, VS your ignorance of another cultures history.

Alright bro, you are knowledgeable, I am still an armature, but give your answer to your claims first, being who you are.

Before going any further I would like to know your proof for these

Quran was a translation from Greek and Hebrew.
So called canonised books several centuries after Muhammed.

 

[firedragon]

Bro, not to redirect, your sources dont have anything to do with the topic of the thread. Hope you see that. Thus, you cannot expect me to respond with what ever sources you require. When you provide evidence for your claims, I will respond with credibility.

Peace.

 

[outhouse]

I will respond with credibility.

Peace.

You have not so far.

Rhetoric was just something all authors used.

And is on topic, as they used this to describe the source. they cannot retain followers of a movement already in place by coming out and saying thy plagiarized the bible.

There were people who lived mythology because life was so primitive and brutal, good thoughts in ones conscious mind were considered divine and god did it.

You need to understand the cultural anthropology of primitive people.

You need to understand how rhetoric was taught to the literate.


You need to understand the bible was common knowledge to these people.

 

[firedragon]

You have not so far.

Rhetoric was just something all authors used.

And is on topic, as they used this to describe the source. they cannot retain followers of a movement already in place by coming out and saying thy plagiarized the bible.

There were people who lived mythology because life was so primitive and brutal, good thoughts in ones conscious mind were considered divine and god did it.

You need to understand the cultural anthropology of primitive people.

You need to understand how rhetoric was taught to the literate.


You need to understand the bible was common knowledge to these people.

Alright. I will learn all of that. I admit you know it all.

But please answer these.

Before going any further I would like to know your proof for these

Quran was a translation from Greek and Hebrew.
So called canonised books several centuries after Muhammed.

 

[paarsurrey]

Two way street brother.


Why is it so hard to admit that your religion used pre existing beliefs, when it is obvious they did, and they admit to using said beliefs.

They just claim these beliefs came from somewhere else, as any religion does using rhetoric prose, to build up divinity and make people think their view is the only view.

And your own people fought this only view for how long??? they have not quit fighting over it since it has been established


Remember, the orthodox canonized books you have did not come about until a few hundred years after your prophets death

Absolutely wrong; Quran was always there.

Regards

 

[outhouse]

Why do I keep seeing this kind of thing quite often in this forum? .

Because this is a place of religious education. Truth.

Not proselytizing apologetics Faith.


There is a big difference between Truth, and Faith

 

[outhouse]

Absolutely wrong; Quran was always there.

Regards

Prove it with credible sources, not your apologetic sources.

 

[paarsurrey]

Go back a few pages, read some other posts and respond with intellect and proper analysis if you can.

What canonised books are you talking about? The Quran, are you saying its a collection of books and that it came about a few hundred years later?

Bro, I cant believe you talk so ambiguously. Who told you this? I think its time you used your brains rather than just your eyes and ears, process things without spitting things out like a dumb terminal.

Respond to earlier posts and back up your claims if you can. And please dont be rude to people then you will be treated with respect.

What canonised books are you talking about? The Quran, are you saying its a collection of books and that it came about a few hundred years later?

I think he admitted in one of his posts that he has not read Quran from cover to cover himself.

Did he?

Regards

 

[outhouse]

But please answer these.

Are there not claims that your people kidnapped a Hebrew scribe, who helped write it?

If so, why would you think there are not.


Your prophet is said to be illiterate and epileptic, do you believe this?



Im just throwing things out there, it does not reflect my view.

 

[firedragon]

Are there not claims that your people kidnapped a Hebrew scribe, who helped write it?

If so, why would you think there are not.


Your prophet is said to be illiterate and epileptic, do you believe this?



Im just throwing things out there, it does not reflect my view.

So thats your strategy is it brother? state something and ask other why your claims are wrong?

I just laughed a bit, where in the Quran does it say Muhammed was epileptic?
And if he was illiterate how did he translate hebrew and Greek?

 

[paarsurrey]

Don't call bs due to YOUR severe ignorance of rhetoric prose. Heck I had no clue until a professor opened my eyes.

ok I also stated it is obvious no one in this thread knows about the use of rhetoric in writing prose when creating religions.


It is something Harvard taught me thank you.

http://www.theinimitablequran.com/rhetoricalfeatures.pdf

The Qur’an is a ‘sea of rhetoric’. The Qur’an exhibits an unparalleled frequency of rhetorical features,
surpassing any other Arabic text, classical or modern. The use of rhetoric in the Quran stands out from any
type of discourse.



The Rhetoric and Eloquence of the Qur


The Rule of the Koran? Semitic Rhetoric

The Rule of the Koran? Semitic Rhetoric

The surprising results of research that began with the question: is it possible that such a fundamental text is as disordered as it appears? A work of structural decoding shows in reality that the Holy Book of Islam is very elaborate in literary terms and that its constructive rules are the same as those of the Bible

You are no more studying in Harvard; and this is the practical world. You have to prove your viewpoint direct from Torah and Quran.

We don't restrict you; you are open to seek help from your professors at Harvard or at Yale to assist you. If they prefer; they could join the discussion here themselves.

Nobody is ready to take their word for granted unless it is proved with evidences and proofs from the text of Bible and Quran on the topic.

I think you have a blind faith in Harvard and Yale and your professors.

Regards

 

[AlphaAlex115]

The quran must have copied the bible because the bible was written first and so it was easier to use it as a template etc. For writting the quran.

 

[outhouse]

The quran must have copied the bible because the bible was written first and so it was easier to use it as a template etc. For writting the quran.

Exactly.

Biblical and Quranic narratives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

From a modern scholarly perspective, similarities between Biblical and Quranic accounts of the same person or event are evidence for the influence of pre-existing traditions on the composition of the Qur'an.[2] From a traditionalist Muslim perspective, such a discussion makes no sense

 

[outhouse]

Nobody is ready to take their word for granted unless it is proved with evidences and proofs from the text of Bible and Quran on the topic.

So your claims are to be taken as credible when you claim is supernatural in nature

And you have ZERO evidence in support of your view.


gods are mythological in nature, and to date scientifically does not exist.

 

[outhouse]

So thats your strategy is it brother? state something and ask other why your claims are wrong?

I just laughed a bit, where in the Quran does it say Muhammed was epileptic?
And if he was illiterate how did he translate hebrew and Greek?

I laughed to, but had to throw it out there.


Im trying to find a credible source for the Hebrew and Koine transliterations, I claimed.

I want a better source then where I heard it yesterday.


Even if I do have a credible source, it wont change your mind, will it?

 

[AlphaAlex115]

Can you not just use the edit button.. its unnecessarily page stretching xp.

Also according to Wikipedia the quran is the oldest book in the world so I was wrong

 

[outhouse]

You

No YOU is who were are dealing with


You use scholars when it is their opinion against Christians of jews.

But you ignore them when it is against islam.


That is a double standard and the only reason I don't have you on ignore is to stop you from using this garbage method.

 

[paarsurrey]

Can you not just use the edit button.. its unnecessarily page stretching xp.

Also according to Wikipedia the quran is the oldest book in the world so I was wrong

I don't think it is correct.

Please quote the link where it is stated.

I quote from Wikipedia:

History of religious texts[edit]

See also: history of religion, timeline of religion and history of writing
The oldest known religious texts are Pyramid texts of Ancient Egypt that date to 2400-2300 BCE. The earliest form of the Phoenician alphabet found to date is the inscription on the sarcophagus of King Ahiram of Byblos. ( The Sumerian Temple Hymns [1]). The Epic of Gilgamesh from Sumer, with origins as early as 2150-2000 BCE,[2]:41–42 is also one of the earliest literary works that includes various mythological figures.[2]:41–42 The Rigveda of Hinduism is proposed to have been composed between 1700–1100 BCE[3] making it possibly the world's oldest religious text still in use. The oldest portions of the Zoroastrian Avesta are believed to have been transmitted orally for centuries before they found written form, and although widely differing dates for Gathic Avestan (the language of the oldest texts) have been proposed, scholarly consensus floats at around 1000 BCE.[citation needed]

The majority of scholars agree that the Torah's composition took place over centuries.[4] From the late 19th century there was a general consensus around the documentary hypothesis, which suggests that the five books were created c.450 BCE by combining four originally independent sources, known as the Jahwist, or J (about 900 BCE), the Elohist, or E (about 800 BCE), the Deuteronomist, or D, (about 600 BCE), and the Priestly source, or P (about 500 BC).[5]

The first scripture printed for wide distribution to the masses was The Diamond Sutra, a Buddhist scripture, and is the earliest recorded example of a dated printed text, bearing the Chinese calendar date for 11 May 868 CE.[6]

Religious text - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Regards

 

[firedragon]

There is no proof that Monotheism was invented in 622 BC in Israel. We dont really know the dating of Avesta Gathas of Zoroaster who proposes Ahura Mazda but some date them 6000 BC. We dont really know the dating of the Vedas that proposes Na Thassya Prathima Asthi, Ikkam Ividithjam but are believed to date 3000 BC.

I understand that there is no clear archaeological proof for the existence of Abraham. If he did, thats definitely before moses who lived during the times of the pharaoh who lived at least 1300 BC.

Beyond dating the Sanaa manuscript via paleography it has been dated before 671 AD via radio carbon analysis with 99% accuracy and 646 with a 75% accuracy. The prophet Muhammed died in 632 AD. What canon are you talking about that was collected several centuries later? I think you are talking about something else. And I dont mean to start a different debate but you cannot compare this to the New Testament in the bible mate, the oldest bible manuscript is the Papyrus P52 which has been given a dating (Not definite) of 117 or later, that is also only through paleography. I would like to know what canon of the Quran you are talking about.

You are claiming that the Quran was translated from Hebrew and Greek.

Tell me where this was translated from, I have already posted this.

Divorce Law in the Quran
Chapter 65

 If divorce is imminent and you have decided to go ahead, there is an interim period.
 Within this interim period you must look after your spouse and it is decreed in order to give a chance of getting back.
 They are not to be sent out from the home unless they have committed some lewd act
 When the interim period exhausts, you can decide to remain together or get separated
 This has to be witnessed by two just people from amongst the man and woman (family or friends)
 If the lady has reached menopause or stopped menstruating, this interim period is three months
 If a pregnancy has occurred the interim period is until birth
 You cannot even try to coerce the spouse to leave the current home during this period
 The man is bound to provide for the woman by oath, according to his means
Chapter 33:49
 If at the time of divorce no intercourse has occurred, no interim is prescribed – Quran
Chapter 2:226 upwards
 Interim period is 3 menstrual periods
 Reconciliation is encouraged but divorce between the same couple can occur only twice unless the woman marries and divorces another.
 The divorced mother is allowed to suckle the child for two years, no matter who’s custody the child is under
 The man is responsible for both their clothing, sustenance and welfare unless they mutually agree to go their own ways

And where did he get this concept from?

Slavery

Most readers would find it astonishing to hear that slavery still exists in the modern world. Though the practice was abolished officially it is still very much alive. According to a study done by the International Labour Organisation the estimated number of slaves has increased from 12.3 million to 30 million since 2005. Slavery is not declining, in fact it is increasing.

Defining slavery

 Humans used, sold or bought as a commodity or property
 Imprisoned or kept by force with no freedom of movement
 Forced to work via some form of threat
 Forcefully acquired or owned by a master or employer, abused or under threat of abuse.

Slavery has been officially abolished since 1981 and the world at large, including some Muslims believe that Islam does propagate slavery. It is an erroneous view as you will find the Quran telling us that slaves are to be set free as a repenting act for a sin or crime you commit. If a billion Muslims follow the Quranic teachings and seek to set a slave free to redeem themselves, 30 Million slaves might see a hope of freedom. Many do find it silly to discuss slavery but slavery is very much alive, it is in the increase and needs attention. The ILO goes to the length of quoting 90$ as the average cost of a slave.

Freeing a slave is defined as an act of piety in the Quran.

Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who
 believes in God and the Last Day,
 and the angels,
 and the Book,
 and the prophets,
 and who gives money out of love to the relatives,
 and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask,
 and to free the slaves;
 and who upholds prayer,
 and who contributes towards purification;
 and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge,
 and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair.
These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous. – Quran 2:177

Very directly and clearly the Quran gives a formula to live by, which if someone has an argument against is imprudent.
As you can see, freeing slaves is part of a Muslims creed.

 Quran verse 4:92 says that if you kill someone by mistake (e.g. Motor Accident), you must free a slave and compensate the family. Compensating the family is for their wellbeing, freeing a slave is for your salvation. Imagine every Muslim in the world seeking to free a slave in case of an accidental death.
 Verse 5:89 ordains you to free a slave in case you had broken an oath or a promise. If you owe someone money and you break the promise of return, if and when you repent, it is not enough just to return that money. You must free a slave as an act of repentance.
 9:60 gives you freeing a slave as a duty amongst charity and relieving those in debt.
 The Quran articulates in this manner
“Do you know which the better path is?
o The freeing of slaves.
o Or the feeding on a day of great hardship.
o An orphan of relation.
o Or a poor person in need.”
 Quran 90:12-16

While translating the Quran from Hebrew and Koine Greek, and copying from the bible how did Muhammed maintain these things. (This is also from an older post)

The Quran has cited the word “Day” or “Yawm” in its singular form exactly 365 times from cover to cover. The singular word for “Month” or “Shahr” is mentioned exactly 12 times in the Quran indicating the year has 12 months. Writing a book with some 6,346 verses while containing the number of times you mention a particular word to represent a significant fact like 365 days a year in itself is impossible by human effort, especially 1400 years ago with no computers.

Quran mentions land 13 times and sea is mentioned 32 times. The ratio is 13:32 which is Land 28.8889% and Sea 71.1111% which is the exact land to sea ratio on earth.

He cant do it in a lifetime.

Also one my other arguments.

Haamaan or Haman was never cited in the bible nor any other document in the world other than Egyptian ancient lit in a language not deciphered until 1899 (I checked the date and stand corrected. Excuse mwa) with the discovery of the rosetta stone. An Egyptian tablet now in the Hof museum in Vienna shows how close Haman was to the Pharaoh. Bible does not record this. How did it only enter the Quran if it was plagiarism? Hope you understand my point. Also, this is a historical fact recorded. How did Muhammed know about "Haman" who's name was never known until 1899.

The Ipuwer Papyrus dating back to the middle kingdom if I am not mistaken over 1600 years ago. This papyrus describes the perils that the Pharaohs era went through as described in the Quran mostly accurately in the bible as well. This papyrus can be found in the Museum in Holland even now.

Quran records that the Pharaohs body will be saved from the water and you will find that his mummy was found preserved in the red sea in the 19th century. 1898. Wonder if that was a coincidence.

The drowning of the pharaoh is also described in the Egyptian Papyri No 6 found in the British Museum now.

Copying the bible he somehow managed to turn the tables on slavoury and divorce laws.

Being apparently illiterate and epileptic according to you Muhammed built a satellite to exactly measure the see to land ratio and managed to maintain the word count to depict it.

So Muhammed translated the Quran from Hebrew, Greek and deciphered ancient Egyptian before anybody in the world to know about Haman, not to mention that he did some archaeological digs when he traveled to Egypt.

Peace.

 

[outhouse]

There is no proof that Monotheism was invented in 622 BC in Israel. .

Comprehension in context is needed my friend.


Monotheism was not "invented" by King Josiah and his monotheistic reforms.

It was at this time 622 BC that a political change adopted monotheism to Yahweh, because King Josiah was a strict Yahwist.


Not up for debate either. It is as accepted as fact.