• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Is reality with Tao the ONE-God?

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
You can say one or many in Japanese as well. You can certainly specify a specific number, too. It looks though that Chinese is like Japanese in that the word "shen" does not change in dependence upon "Yi" or "Xuduo."

Well the word (pinyin) Shen does change depending on tone, to be correct 神 does not change as it applies to singular or plural. But depending on context it can change to something a westerner would consider as a different meaning.

Just to name a few, shēn shēn shén are all different words and it is the tone that makes the difference, but it can get a bit more complicated too. There are multiple characters with the Shen pronunciation but the actual characters are all different.

As for shén (神) it could also be translated as deity, soul, spirit, mysterious...depending on context
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Well the word (pinyin) Shen does change depending on tone, to be correct 神 does not change as it applies to singular or plural. But depending on context it can change to something a westerner would consider as a different meaning.

Just to name a few, shēn shēn shén are all different words and it is the tone that makes the difference, but it can get a bit more complicated too. There are multiple characters with the Shen pronunciation but the actual characters are all different.

As for shén (神) it could also be translated as deity, soul, spirit, mysterious...depending on context

Japanese gets complex in the readings as well. A single character can have multiple pronunciations depending on how it is compounded with other characters and other contexts. The Japanese reading for 神 is "kami", among other readings, too. Kami has a similar range of meanins as shen. A kami can be something like a traditional god such as Apollo, or it could also be used for a ghost, a powerful person, a mountain, a river...
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Japanese also has another pronunciation issue when dealing with Japanese characters, the Chinese characters they use.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi Scotsman,
Agreed. Individuals are of course free to believe what they wish. But if we are concerned with the facts of history and the religion's own views from its own vantage point, Daoism is certainly not referring to God.
I would add that the use of the word "God" is a misnomer in this translation. China had no monotheistic conceptions during Daoism's formative centuries, and probably well into its maturity as a religion. The Daodejing from which you quote was written down several centuries before the birth of Jesus Christ. Offhand, I believe Manichaeism, which is dualistic, might be the earliest religion to even approach monotheism to reach China, which became a small minority in China several centuries after Jesus Christ's lifetime. Hence, all the more reason why the OP is factually incorrect.
Furthermore, the Chinese language did not even distinguish between singular and plural forms. I do not speak any Chinese dialect, but I have studied Confucian and Daoist texts enough to know this. This is probably why people who speak Chinese natively even today sometimes have trouble with pluralities, mistakenly referring to multiples in English using the singular word form (i.e. two dollar, instead of two dollars). So if somehow this line was referring to a deity, it would be linguistically impossible to know if one or more deities were being referred to. But religiously, we'd have to go with the plural since only polytheism was known to China.
Finally, I've seen translations use the English word "lord(s)" or even "all things" instead of "God." So I think this line should more accurately be translated to say, "It is older than the gods," or "It is older than all things."
In religion we don't consider what a particular society or what people of a country believe out of blind-faith, we see the text itself or the word used in a passage. The word "Tao" in the passage under discussion makes clear it is another word for ONE-God. Right? Please
Regards
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
In religion we don't consider what a particular society or what people of a country believe out of blind-faith, we see the text itself or the word used in a passage.

We're all too aware that you do this. You disregard the culture and language that informed the text so you can impose your own uninformed and doctrinally self-serving definition upon it. It's a blinkered, willfully ignorant and culturally imperialist approach. The Chinese word for God(s) is shen. Tao (or dao) means 'Way'. This is where the word for the indigenous Japanese faith, Shinto, derives from.

If you were truly interested in understanding religions you'd study both them and the cultural context they emerged & evolved in. But the only thing that interests you about other religions is beding and warping them to fit your own narrative.

The word "Tao" in the passage under discussion makes clear it is another word for ONE-God. Right? Please
Regards

Wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you say it means 'One God': Tao. Means. 'Way'.
Right? Please
 

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you say it means 'One God': Tao. Means. 'Way'.
Right? Please

Tao does not mean one god, there is no reputable translation of Tao that even suggest it. But one can follow the Tao and have one god or many, the tao is the tao
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Tao does not mean one god, there is no reputable translation of Tao that even suggest it. But one can follow the Tao and have one god or many, the tao is the tao

I know it doesn't. Let me reword that slightly. It doesn't matter how many times paarsurrey says it means 'One God', it doesn't change the fact that Tao. Means. 'Way'.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
One god = Yī shén
Many Gods = Xǔduō shén

shén = God

However I do not believe in a direct translation of the Tao Te Ching (Dàodéjīng 道德经) you will find shén (meaning this one 神) as god, or only one god, or only one true god as it applies to any type of worship

Tao (道) is way or road, not god

I personally do not see a conflict between Dàodéjīng and one god, but then I do not see a conflict between Dàodéjīng and greater than one God either
Yes, the Japanese Shinto religion is the Way of God/s

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao... (Verse 1) Tao Te Ching

From the Tao
(Eternal/non-conceptual) come the One (conceptual Tao) Verse 42
From the One, comes the Two,
From the Two, comes the Three,
From the Three, comes the Ten Thousand...
(infinite)

Here we see a hierarchy of sorts....imho....
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Yes, the Japanese Shinto religion is the Way of God/s
The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Eternal Tao... (Verse 1) Tao Te Ching
From the Tao (Eternal/non-conceptual) come the One (conceptual Tao) Verse 42
From the One, comes the Two,
From the Two, comes the Three,
From the Three, comes the Ten Thousand...
(infinite)
Here we see a hierarchy of sorts....imho....

'The great Tao is vast. He is on the left and He is on the right. All creatures depend upon Him, and the care of them tires Him not. He brings creation to completion, without seeking reward. He provides for all His creation, but requires nothing for Himself, so He may be considered small. All creatures turn to Him for their needs, yet He keeps nothing for Himself, thus He may be named 'the Supreme'. He does not consider Himself great and because of this He is truly Great.'
DAN, L (1969) The Works of Lao Tzyy. Truth and Nature. The World Book Company, Ltd. Taipei, Taiwan, China. Ch.34, p.17

The attributes mentioned in the above passage make it clear that Tao is God.
Regards
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
'The great Tao is vast. He is on the left and He is on the right. All creatures depend upon Him, and the care of them tires Him not. He brings creation to completion, without seeking reward. He provides for all His creation, but requires nothing for Himself, so He may be considered small. All creatures turn to Him for their needs, yet He keeps nothing for Himself, thus He may be named 'the Supreme'. He does not consider Himself great and because of this He is truly Great.'
DAN, L (1969) The Works of Lao Tzyy. Truth and Nature. The World Book Company, Ltd. Taipei, Taiwan, China. Ch.34, p.17

The attributes mentioned in the above passage make it clear that Tao is God.
Regards
Not only God, also the Buddhist Nirvana...which ironically means that Nirvana, a concept representing a non-conceptual state of existence, is also just another name for God (though most Buddhists would not accept..... or most Christians for that matter).. :)

But the best way to avoid implying one name has preference over another is to say that there is this one absolute reality represented by the concepts of God, Tao, and Nirvana...
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
'The great Tao is vast. He is on the left and He is on the right. All creatures depend upon Him, and the care of them tires Him not. He brings creation to completion, without seeking reward. He provides for all His creation, but requires nothing for Himself, so He may be considered small. All creatures turn to Him for their needs, yet He keeps nothing for Himself, thus He may be named 'the Supreme'. He does not consider Himself great and because of this He is truly Great.'
DAN, L (1969) The Works of Lao Tzyy. Truth and Nature. The World Book Company, Ltd. Taipei, Taiwan, China. Ch.34, p.17

The attributes mentioned in the above passage make it clear that Tao is God.
Regards

The Way has no specific gender - it causes both so it is both and neither. It would be just as appropriate to refer to The Way as 'She'. And if I'm not mistaken, Allah desires the reward of being worshipped hence his obsession with our submission to him and the strange idea that our only purpose here is to worship him. The Way does not require this.

And the Way is still older than God.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Not only God, also the Buddhist Nirvana...which ironically means that Nirvana, a concept representing a non-conceptual state of existence, is also just another name for God (though most Buddhists would not accept..... or most Christians for that matter).. :)
But the best way to avoid implying one name has preference over another is to say that there is this one absolute reality represented by the concepts of God, Tao, and Nirvana...

Nirvana is achieving nearness to God, and that could happen only if one believes in God. Right? Please
Regards
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Nirvana is achieving nearness to God, and that could happen only if one believes in God. Right? Please
Regards
Not so...because belief implies a conceptual knowing....and no mortal mind can know the full extent of the same one absolute reality represented by the name 'God', or 'Tao' or Nirvana'. However realization of the absolute reality Itself represented by these names is possible through certain efficacious religious practice..

So to reiterate....belief is not the same thing as realization.....belief is like a sign post pointing the way to the goal....realization is the arrival at the goal.... There is only one goal....and in this case three different signposts (God, Tao, and Nirvana) all pointing the same goal.. To believe that the sign post 'God' is the goal, is to mistake the concept for that which the concept represents...

Btw, if I paraphrase your comment.... God is achieving nearness to Nirvana, and that could only happen if one believes in Nirvana... it is not correct for the same reason... :)
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
Nirvana is achieving nearness to God, and that could happen only if one believes in God. Right? Please
Regards
Not so...because belief implies a conceptual knowing....and no mortal mind can know the full extent of the same one absolute reality represented by the name 'God', or 'Tao' or Nirvana'. However realization of the absolute reality Itself represented by these names is possible through certain efficacious religious practice..
So to reiterate....belief is not the same thing as realization.....belief is like a sign post pointing the way to the goal....realization is the arrival at the goal.... There is only one goal....and in this case three different signposts (God, Tao, and Nirvana) all pointing the same goal.. To believe that the sign post 'God' is the goal, is to mistake the concept for that which the concept represents...
Btw, if I paraphrase your comment.... God is achieving nearness to Nirvana, and that could only happen if one believes in Nirvana... it is not correct for the same reason... :)

G-d/Tao/Brahman/Waheguru is Absolute, for sure. It is for this I used the term "nearness to God", there are unlimited stages to reaching God, one could be at the first stage or any other stage on the ladder/way to God :

[3:46] When the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him; his name shall be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, honoured in this world and in the next, and of those who are granted nearness to God;
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=3&verse=45
Right?

Regards
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
G-d/Tao/Brahman/Waheguru is Absolute, for sure. It is for this I used the term "nearness to God", there are unlimited stages to reaching God, one could be at the first stage or any other stage on the ladder/way to God. Right?
Regards
Correct....and you can add Nirvana to your list, as well as Allah, Brahman, etc...
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Nirvana or salvation is when one is free from sins and one get nearness to Allah.
Regards
Yes...and in liberation there is non-duality....and those other concepts...Brahman, Tao, etc. also imply non-duality. God is one...nothing separate from God can ever enter into God because...everything is already in God. Hence the task of the ignorant who imagine God is something separate and despite all the trying, can not enter into union with God, is to cease their dualistic view of God as being external and separate...
 
Top