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Is religion dying?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You are not serious.

Mithical: If it takes 5 machines 5 minutes to make 5 devices, how long would it take 100 machines to make 100 devices?
ChatGPT: If it takes 5 machines 5 minutes to make 5 devices, then it would take 100 machines 100 minutes to make 100 devices.


Sure, and what it said is true. It takes 1 minute for 1 machine to make 1 device. 100 machines = 100 minutes. It was not told whether or not the machines were working in teams, or if they were working simultaneously. These details matter.

The benefit of working with the AI, is that it mimics the so-called logic you are using. It has been trained to use that form of primitive logic. That's what it defaults to, just as you are defaulting to this primitive so-called logic. Understanding this primitive programming, helps me understand your primitive programming.

But what's nice about the AI, is that it will correct itself once new facts are presented. And it is able to assess different methods for flaws. You seem to lack both of these capabilities.

Congratulations, you found your match. No surprise you generate all that nonsense. :)

Sure, it will default to the non-logic you are using. But I was able to correct it.

Look, it is extremely simple. It is the case that according to classical logic, the fact that I don't know any Jews, implies that all the Jews I know are atheists. Or theists. Or Muslims. Or whatever else. The proof of that is a one-liner. But I made a longer version for people not very acquainted with formal logic.

No. That is only true if the definitions are not defined. The ONLY reason that the empty set is considered a subset of all sets is because the subset is defined to permit it. But anytime a person tries to "look for elements" that proof fails.

Because the rules of classical logic can be applied almost automatically to obtain my claim, any attempt to lead to a contradiction is doomed to fail. As we have seen with your attempted efforts, all failing miserably. In fact, I am trying here to avoid you further embarrassment, and useless typing. But if you are really masochist, you can try to formulate another proof of my claim leading to internal contradictions.

No, it can be proven in classical logic that you are wrong. The same vacuous truth that shows the property is obtained can also be used to show that the property is not obtained.

Let's take, as an example, the latest attempt:


We have seen that if P = "All the Jews I know are atheists", then it is not true that "Not P = "I don't know any Jews that are atheists". As it is self-evident by just reading it out loud. Your subsequent patched version is equally wrong, and looks even funnier if plugged into your argument.

Sure, but that's not what you're saying. You are saying "I don't know any Jews" AND "All the Jews I know are atheists" is vacuously true without including the necessary defintion of atheist or jew. It's just like the AI. You are behaving the same way. Lacking precision, results in a false conclusion.

Hence, your conclusions are predicated on a logical error, and are therefore worthless. They cannot be used to prove, nor disprove anything. Also because of the elementary laws of logic.

Nonsense. Here is a formal proof using classical logic proving that "All the Jews I know are atheists" AND "I don't know any Jews" is always false. It works because I have properly defined the terms and included the necessary condition that a Jew cannot be both a theist and an atheist simultaneously.

1. Let A(x) represent "x is an atheist". Let T(x) represent "x is a theist". Let J(x) represent "x is a known Jew".
2. No person can be both a theist and an atheist simultaneously. J(x): { A(x) ⊻ T(x) }
3. Assume for contradiction: I don't know any Jews AND All the Jews I know are atheists.
4. Including the necessary conditions in step 1 & 2, the assumtion is: ¬(∃x)(J(x)) and J(x): { A(x) is true and T(x) is false }.
5. Now, under this assumption, we can deduce that J(x) implies both A(x) and T(x).
6. Since ¬(∃x)(J(x)) is assumed, it implies that J(x) is false for all x.
7. From step 6, J(x) → A(x) is vacuously true, as J(x) is false for all x.
8. Similarly, J(x) → T(x) is vacuously true, as J(x) is false for all x.
9. However, by the definition of J(x) in step 2, J(x) cannot simultaneously imply both A(x) and T(x).
10. Hence, the assumption in step 3 leads to a contradiction.
11. Therefore, the assumption ¬(∃x)(J(x)) and J(x): { A(x) is true and T(x) is false } is false.
12. The assertion "All the Jews I know are atheists" is always false, if "I don't know any Jews" with the necessary definition of Jews, Atheists, and Theists.

Now. THAT ^^ is inescable logic. The vacuous truth produces Q is true and ~Q is true if the set is empty. The same proof can be generalized for any set P and any property Q.

1. Let P(x) represent any set, and let Q(x) represent any property.
2. Per the law of non-contradiction, P(x): { Q(x) ⊻ ~Q(x) }, even if P(x) is empty.
3. Assume for contradiction the special case where P(x) is empty and a positive assertion is made about P(x) and Q(x): ¬(∃x)(P(x)) and P(x): { Q(x) is true and ~Q(x) is false }.
4. Under this assumption, P(x) implies both Q(x) and ~Q(x) vacuously.
5. Since ¬(∃x)(P(x)) is assumed, it implies that P(x) is false for all x.
6. From step 5, P(x) → Q(x) is vacuously true, as P(x) is false for all x.
7. Similarly, P(x) → ~Q(x) is vacuously true, as P(x) is false for all x.
8. However, by the law of non-contradiction, P(x) cannot simultaneously imply both Q(x) and ~Q(x).
9. Hence, the assumption in step 3 leads to a contradiction.
10. Therefore, the assumption ¬(∃x)(P(x)) and P(x): { Q(x) is true and ~Q(x) is false } is false.
11. In the case where P(x) is empty, any assertion P(x) → Q(x) is false because the assertion simultaeously implies P(x) → ~Q(x). This violates the law of non-contradiction.
12. For any set P(x), if it is empty, any positive assertion about a property Q(x) is always false.
13. Consequently the empty-set does not obtain any properties vacuously.

So, my case stands as strong as before. Which is not surprising considering that it can be proved by a simple application of the laws of classical logic. Which is the logical framework I am using for this case.

Nope, it is weak and ignorant of the obvious contradictory nature of using a vacuous truth to assert any property of an empty set. It only works if contradictions are accepted as true.

You have lost again.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Is this about a consistent system that has capabilities? Or is it about obtaining the truth of a matter?

Because if you don't know any Jews, you'll never determine the truth or falsehood of all the Jews one knows being atheist. It's a non starter with a contradiction in it. It's gibberish and an impossibility. Is there any logical system that recognizes an empty claim with a contradiction in it?

You are correct. No logical system should permit gibberish. However, there are several ways to interpret the statement "All the Jews I know are atheists AND I don't know any Jews". The most common way correctly concludes it is gibberish and false. But it's also possible to interpret it as a true statement if it is read counter-intuitively.

In the conjoined statement "All the Jews I know are atheists AND I don't know any Jews", most people correctly focus on the word "know" which exists in both the first and second part of the conjoined senence. If the subject is "knowing" then there is an obvious contradiction. However, the word "Jew" also is present in both parts. This means that the subject could be the existence of Jews.

Intuitivley, the subject is knowing, however, it's possible to interpret the statement counter-intuitively, each part of the statement in isolation and in reverse. This is literally counter-intuitive. In reverse, the second part of the conjunction is evaluated first. "I don't know any Jews" can be interpretted generally to mean "No Jews exist." It's strange, but true. It could be that the reason I don't know any Jews is because they don't exist any where. Really, "I don't know any Jews" means "No Jews exist in the current domain which is my knowledge." But without specifying, the statement can be interpretted generally.

So, avoiding the obvious contradiction is kind of like reading the statements in isloation and in reverse. First it is established that No Jews exist. Then this is applied / inserted into the first part of the conjoined statement. The first part says "All the Jews I know are atheists". This is actually saying "All the Jews that exist in the domain of my knowledge are atheists." If no Jews exist in that domain, then the statement can be interpretted "No Jews exist in the domain [that] are atheists". Now, it's true.

When the conjoined statement is interpretted with the subject of "knowledge", then it's obvously a contradiction, and the conjoined statement is false. Conclusion: there are no Jewish-atheists in the domain.

When the statements are interpretted in isloation and in reverse with the subject of "existence of Jews in the domain of knowledge" the statement is true, but MUST be interpretted counter-intuitively. This results in the same conclusion, there are no Jewish-atheists in the domain.

Both approaches, the intuitive identification of the contradiction between "I know" and "I don't know", and the counter-intuitive isolated and reverse application of the lack of existence, produce the same conclusion if they are interpretted properly.

The so-called logic that @viole is employing has no mechanism for evaluating *actual* truth. @viole's AI-style programming will claim that anything is true, if it conforms to the programming. But it's not *actually* true. It's just the letter "T", it's just a symbol which means "this conforms to a rule which exists in my programming."

There are rules in @viole's primitive programming which show that the statement is always false, as I proved in the above reply. If @viole denies these rules and this proof it would be further evidence of an inability to differentiate between true and false.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
As I said, irrelevant for the subject at hand. Open a separate thread for it, if you want. And be sure to put it on a forum that is not uniquely in your mind, lol.

Ciao

- viole

The domain of the statement "All the Jews I know are atheists AND I don't know any Jews" is knowedge in your mind. It is relevant.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Ok, show me then please the segment in the text that says “vacuous truths are not true” or something equivalent. because that is what I am asking. Where is it?

Ciao

- viole

It's in the link you provided already from wikipedia on vacuous truths. You are skipping over the distinction because you have been trained to do so.

If you read it carefully,

the negative assertion "All the cellphones in an empty room are off [ not on ]" is true.
the positive assertion and the incoherent conjunctions are vacuously true.

If true and vacuously true were identical, then there would not be any need for the concept of a vacuous truth.

Explaining this to a beginner, who is just learning logic could undermine their training causing them to question the relevance and usefulness of the training. So, these details are omitted. This is not uncommon for beginning the training process for complex subjects. Sadly, those who have not advanced past the basics are permitted to train others. This perpetuates miscomprehension and developes social inertia for these miscomprehensions.

 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I don't claim knowledge. Apart from the fact that I do not know any Jew.

Oopsie-doopsie, you sure do.

You are claiming knowledge that you know what a Jew is and you are claiming that you know what an atheist is. But your so-called logic is ignoring / avoiding / omitting that knowledge from any logical proof method that is being employed.

You are also claiming knowledge of "True" and "False". You are claiming many things, but, your primitive logic is not aware of how that logic *actually* works.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Maybe so. But that is totally irrelevant to address the point here. Because the point here is, basically, mindless. And you do not need to think to see it is true.

If your training prohibits using your mind, then you have been brainwashed.
 

Thrillobyte

Active Member
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Interesting graph in your post.
Seems to me a number of religious teachers want the flock to be more active in the political arena whereas Jesus was Not.
Jesus and his first-century followers were politically neutral and Not even taking sides even in the issues of the day between the Jews and Romans.
So, this pushing the flock in the wrong direction could help ' religious waters ' (people) dry up spiritually.
And even dry up quickly as the waters of the Euphrates were dried up - Rev. 16:12; 17:1,15
So, it should come as No surprise when the political world surprisingly turns on the religious world. - 1st Thess. 5:2-3
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Sure, and what it said is true. It takes 1 minute for 1 machine to make 1 device. 100 machines = 100 minutes. It was not told whether or not the machines were working in teams, or if they were working simultaneously. These details matter.
As I said, you found your match :)

I don't know why, but I had a little gizmo in my mind that told me that you would be able to get even that simple problem totally wrong. Difficult to believe, but it actually happened.

The premise is: 5 machines take 5 minutes to make 5 devices. Which is definitely not like 1 machine takes 1 minute to make 1 device. Where did you get that conclusion from? LOL.

If it were the same, it would take that same 1 minute for 5 machines to make 5 devices. Not 5 minutes, as per premise. And even in this case, it would take that same 1 minute for 100 machines to make 100 devices.

And that its why the answer "100 minutes" is ridiculously wrong. Even assuming your totally wrong inference. It just takes very basic analytical skills to see it, and that is why this is usually a logical riddle for little kids. The answer to that question, according to the stated premises, is actually "5 minutes", obviously.

Now that we have ascertained that you don't seem to have the necessary logical skills to even solve the simplest of problems, why should anyone take you seriously when you start pontificating about classical logic, theorems, formal derivations, and such?

Wouldn't be like me pontificating about medieval Chinese theater, when it takes no time to realize that I have no clue about medieval Chinese theater? How would you call that? :)

Ciao

- viole
 
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1213

Well-Known Member
Is religion dying i.e. waning in popularity?
It depends on what is a religion. I think climate cult is a modern religion and evolution theory is modernized mother earth cult. So, it seems there is always some kind of religions. But, Christianity, as in the Bible, has probably never been really popular.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
As I said, you found your match :)

I don't know why, but I had a little gizmo in my mind that told me that you would be able to get even that simple problem totally wrong. Difficult to believe, but it actually happened.

I didn't get it wrong. What the AI said was true when no other conditions are given, and no other priorities are given.

The premise is: 5 machines take 5 minutes to make 5 devices. Which is definitely not like 1 machine takes 1 minute to make 1 device. Where did you get that conclusion from? LOL.

Sure it is. 1 machine goes to the work bench, in 1 minute builds a machine and leaves. Then this repeats 4 more times. 5 machines take 5 minutes to build five devices sequentially and individually.

If it were the same, it would take that same 1 minute for 5 machines to make 5 devices. Not 5 minutes, as per premise. And even in this case, it would take that same 1 minute for 100 machines to make 100 devices.

Nope, you are assuming. Read my explaination.

Sure, and what it said is true. It takes 1 minute for 1 machine to make 1 device. 100 machines = 100 minutes. It was not told whether or not the machines were working in teams, or if they were working simultaneously. These details matter.

You are assuming that the machines can work cooperatively and simultaneously. What if there is only 1 drill press, and the drill press is needed to build the device?

And that its why the answer "100 minutes" is ridiculously wrong. Even assuming your totally wrong inference. It just takes very basic analytical skills to see it, and that is why this is usually a logical riddle for little kids. The answer to that question, according to the stated premises, is actually "5 minutes", obviously.

No, it would take 100 minutes. But, if they can all work simultaneously, then it would take 1 minute. However, if they can work simultaneaously but they MUST work in teams, it would take 20 minutes.

Now that we have ascertained that you don't seem to have the necessary logical skills to even solve the simplest of problems, why should anyone take you seriously when you start pontificating about classical logic, theorems, formal derivations, and such?

There are many cases:

100 minutes is correct if the machines are working individually and sequentially.
1 minute is correct if they are all working simultaneously.
20 minutes is correct if they are working simultaneously and in must work in teams.
100 minutes is correct if the machines are working sequentially and must work in teams.

You said: 5 minutes. 5 minutes is correct if the machines can work simulatesously in groups of 20. Again, if there are 20 drill presses, and the drill press is needed for each device to be built.

The reason people should listen to me is because I have bought multiple sources repeatedly that demonstrate what I'm saying is true. I have brought actual evidence. I also wrote 2 formal proofs which are *actually* inescapable proving you are wrong. And anyone can see that beginning with "All the Jews I know are atheists" then when challenged making the confession "I don't know any Jews" indicates that the first statement is a lie.

You admitted this, when you compared your statements so-call truth with the statement:

If 2+2=5, then all Jews are Muslims.

If your statement is being compared to the above, then "All the Jews I know" is intentionally false similar to "2+2=5" and "are Jews" is intentionally false similar to "Jews are Muslims" is intentionally false.

You said something intentionally false, then confessed and corrected yourself.

Yes, a statement, a confession is true. The whole statement is true. But that doesn't magically make the original statement true.

"I said: All the Jews I know are atheists, but since I don't know any Jews, I don't *actually* know any Jews, those Jewish atheists don't exist" Is a true statement. The whole statement is true. That does not mean that "All the Jews I know are atheists" is true without the confession.

The confession indicates that the previous statement as false, and that's what makes the confession true. The true confession includes the original false statement.

Wouldn't be like me pontificating about medieval Chinese theater, when it takes no time to realize that I have no clue about medieval Chinese theater? How would you call that? :)

Well, since I'm not doing that, it's a poor example for what I'm doing.

However, pontificating about something when you have no knowledge of it, is precisely what you are advocating in this thread. Your so-called logic asserts that everything is true about the unknown medieval Chinese theater. So, when you said "All the Jews I know are atheists", you WERE pontificating about something you have no clue about.

So, your example is hypocritical.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Is religion dying i.e. waning in popularity?

Well, you guys are all old, so maybe I'm asking the wrong crowd...

Haha jk

You guys have a certain perspective.

As the youngins take the places of you lot, do you think religion will be as popular or influential?

Atheism seems to be on the rise. Institutionalized religion has traumatized much of millennials and I'm betting gen z too. I get mixed signals when I try to gauge the populace's ever changing opinion on religion. Will the millennials and gen z let religion be a dominating cultural force, as it has always been?

I think Christianity is dying but spirituality is rising. I don't think religion is dying. But I think it is possible. I think atheism and agnosticism will keep rising, and as a result organized religion will lose its influence.
True religion such as Christ’s teaching to love one another or Buddha to be mindful or Krishna to not be attached to the reward of good deeds will never die. But the religious dogmas, traditions and superstitions taught by priests and clergy is dying. But truth never dies.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Per the law of non-contradiction, P(x): { Q(x) ⊻ ~Q(x) }, even if P(x) is empty.
Clearly false. If i understand the strange notation. and that is not what the law of contradiction says. So, you must have made that up. What is says, is that there is no x such that Q(x) and ~Q(x). And if there is no x such that P(x) is true, then there is no problem whatsoever if Q and ~Q, are both true. Since it will still be the case that there is no x such that Q(x) and ~Q(x). It should not be too difficult to see.

unless you tell me in words what that line means. Is there an implicit qualifier? are the “;” an implication? It is very important to use unambiguous language if we want to make a point in logic.

in fact, according to classical logic, the following proposition:

if x is an even prime number bigger than two, then x is both positive and not positive. for all such x.

is perfectly true. You just have to check the truth table for the “derivation” propositions in classical logic, to see that. A little table with four possible cases for all combinations of true/false for P and the right part of the derivation.

It is true because no matter what number x is, then the antecedent is always false, since there is no even prime number bigger than two. And then the conclusion follows from the classical laws of derivation: if the antecedent is false, then the entire proposition is true, no matter what the right part says. It could even say: “then bachelors are married” and it will still be true. Again, because of the classical rules of propositions involving derivations. Which you should follow, if you want to play classical logic, instead of making up things.

Hence, your entire point is predicated on a false proposition. Or a proposition the contradicts the rules of classical logic. And its consequences are therefore worthless. They cannot be used to prove, nor disprove anything.

and my case still stands. As it is not surprising, considering it has been derived by a straightforward application of classical logic, and cannot therefore be defeated by the same.

ciao

- viole
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Clearly false. and that is not what the law of contradiction says. So, you must have made that up. What is says, is that there is no x such that Q(x) and ~Q(x). And if there is no x such that P(x) is true, then there is no problem whatsoever if Q and ~Q, are both true. Since it will still be the case that there is no x such that Q(x) and ~Q(x). It should not be too difficult to see.

in fact, according to classical logic, the following proposition:

if x is an even prime number bigger than two, then x is both positive and not positive. for all such x.

is perfectly true. You just have to check the truth table for the “derivation” propositions in classical logic, to see that. A little table with four possible cases for all combinations of true/false for P and the right part of the derivation.

It is true because no matter what number x is, then the antecedent is always false, since there is no even prime number bigger than two. And then the conclusion follows from the classical laws of derivation: if the antecedent is false, then the entire proposition is true, no matter what the right part says. It could even say: “then bachelors are married” and it will still be true. Again, because of the classical rules of propositions involving derivations. Which you should follow, if you want to play classical logic, instead of making up things.

Hence, your entire point is predicated on a false proposition. Or a proposition the contradicts the rules of classical logic. And its consequences are therefore worthless. They cannot be used to prove, nor disprove anything.

and my case still stands. As it is not surprising, considering it has been derived by a straightforward application of classical logic, and cannot therefore be defeated by the same.

ciao

- viole

Yeah, that is correct for logic.
All the Jews I know are atheists.

Ciao

- viole

Now again, the problem is that know is not just logic. So for sound as true and not valid as true, true is different.
So for know as sound, I know no Jews, stops there for sound what you can know about Jews, because you know no Jews.


"A deductive argument proves its conclusion ONLY if it is both valid and sound."

So for only valid, you can do one kind of logic, but for deduction in classical sense you need both.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yeah, that is correct for logic.


Now again, the problem is that know is not just logic. So for sound as true and not valid as true, true is different.
So for know as sound, I know no Jews, stops there for sound what you can know about Jews, because you know no Jews.


"A deductive argument proves its conclusion ONLY if it is both valid and sound."

So for only valid, you can do one kind of logic, but for deduction in classical sense you need both.
C’mon. My entire claim is predicated on classical logical compliance. Nothing more, nothing less. no philosophy, no ontology, no evidence, no nothing. Just strict, mechanical application of the rule starting from some premises. That is why the chess analogy is applicable: the premises are the initial position of the pieces on the board, the conclusion is the final position, and the rules are like the rules of chess. And I can claim knowledge of the rules of chess, and be able to ascertain that, according to those rules, the final position is valid.

no philosophy needed nor welcome.

Whether classical logic is complete in terms of allowing us to find all truths is debatable. actually, it is not, because it can be proved that it is not complete. Not even for something as simple as arithmetic.

ciao

- viole
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
C’mon. My entire claim is predicated on classical logical compliance. Nothing more, nothing less. no philosophy, no ontology, no evidence, no nothing. Just strict, mechanical application of the rule starting from some premises. That is why the chess analogy is applicable: the premises are the initial position of the pieces on the board, the conclusion is the final position, and the rules are like the rules of chess. And I can claim knowledge of the rules of chess, and be able to ascertain that, according to those rules, the final position is valid.

no philosophy needed nor welcome.

Whether classical logic is complete in terms of allowing us to find all truths is debatable. actually, it is not, because it can be proved that it is not complete. Not even for something as simple as arithmetic.

ciao

- viole

Well, I reference a teaching institution for teaching logic as for classical deduction. That is both philosophy and logic, because historically logic was a form of philosophy. So if you claim classical logic, you claim philosophy.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Well, I reference a teaching institution for teaching logic as for classical deduction. That is both philosophy and logic, because historically logic was a form of philosophy. So if you claim classical logic, you claim philosophy.
I am not claiming classical logic, whatever you mean with that, and whether it is universally applicable, and where. I really don’t care, here. I am claiming compliance to classical logic. And for the latter, you need no philosophy, you just need to follow the rules. As a formalist. Without thinking, basically.

so, to repeat my claim: according to classical logic, the fact that I know no Jews, implies that all the Jews I know are Atheists.

i hoped that this would have been accepted, since it is tautological true, and very easy to prove. But, apparently, there are still people unconvinced.

and they are unconvinced because they still confuse classical logical compliance (my claim) with the applicability of classical logic to all situations in the world (not my claim).

ciao

- viole
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I am not claiming classical logic, whatever you mean with that, and whether it is universally applicable, and where. I really don’t care, here. I am claiming compliance to classical logic. And for the latter, you need no philosophy, you just need to follow the rules. As a formalist. Without thinking, basically.

so, to repeat my claim: according to classical logic, the fact that I know no Jews, implies that all the Jews I know are Atheists.

i hoped that this would have been accepted, since it is tautological true, and very easy to prove. But, apparently, there are still people unconvinced.

and they are unconvinced because they still confuse classical logical compliance (my claim) with the applicability of classical logic to all situations in the world (not my claim).

ciao

- viole

Yes, for a subset of logic.
For classical deduction it doesn't. It is that simple.
You want to claim logic as back to classical logic and then you ignore a part of it. That is all.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Yes, for a subset of logic.
For classical deduction it doesn't. It is that simple.
You want to claim logic as back to classical logic and then you ignore a part of it. That is all.
i never did that. I never generalized logic as being covered only by classical logic, or being reducible to classical logic.

In fact, there is not such a thing as a generalized logic. Classical logic is one of the possible logics. Fuzzy logic, for instance, is different. And what is true for classical logic, might not be true for fuzzy logic. In the same way checkers moves are not applicable in chess, and vice versa.

so, I really do not see your point.

ciao

- viole
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
i never did that. I never generalized logic as being covered only by classical logic, or being reducible to classical logic.

In fact, there is not such a thing as a generalized logic. Classical logic is one of the possible logics. Fuzzy logic, for instance, is different. And what is true for classical logic, might not be true for fuzzy logic. In the same way checkers moves are not applicable in chess, and vice versa.

so, I really do not see your point.

ciao

- viole

So we agree. You used a part of logic and I used another. That is all.
 
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