Is religion harmful?

[firedragon]

No

Lol. Then why is it here?

 

[Nimos]

Lol. Then why is it here?

because it was a reply to someone else:

But God has promised to undo the effects of the first human couples decision to abuse their freewill and rebel against his good will, and thus pass the effects of that sin on to all their progeny afterwards, of which we are all included.

 

[sun rise]

@syo @Orbit @sun rise

I guess from the comments being posted, that none of you actually watched the video, but are just making general statements is that correct?
Not that its an issue I just want to be sure?

True.

 

[osgart]

Fundamentalist religion causes a division between people. It's an identity they choose, and I think it's most definitely a false division. That kind of religion does harm to those who deny the religion but have personal ties to people in it. Often it's family members who suffer the most because of their honest atheism or agnosticism.

I don't think anybody can say that all religion is like that scenario.

Truth matters, morality matters too. It's an unfortunate part of reality that there are so many different versions of the truth.

It's sad that atheism, and agnosticism has to become a cause. It's a worthwhile cause because it's an honest view. I think a lot of people want to see a free world unhindered by bad religion. Yet bad religion is often sincerely believed in.

Let the best truth win. It's very good to have people speak out on behalf of people caught in a religious trap. I think the answer to harmful religions is to promote free thought, and to care about what happens with the human race.

Religions are powerful, organizing institutions that have great influence in society. The only way to defeat bad religion is to organize and become strong with what these religions are good at.

Religious people may have delusions, but they are not stupid. The power of a powerful message, and addressing human needs by organizing to help would go a long way in solving the problem.

 

[firedragon]

@syo @Orbit @sun rise

I guess from the comments being posted, that none of you actually watched the video, but are just making general statements is that correct?
Not that its an issue I just want to be sure?

I watched the beginning up to that lady who had bad experience leaving Christianity. Then some parts one guys bible faith was being shredded by a host. Not so sophisticated, but somethings they say are true. They have done some studies preparing to debate with people.

But its pretty lame to blame anything on religion. If you do study a bit of sociological ideas and findings in this topic you would see how ignorant the notion to blame religion is. Its nonsensical. Its more of a love to hate than being actually superior in knowledge and reason like these two people and many others seem to display.

 

[Nimos]

I watched the beginning up to that lady who had bad experience leaving Christianity. Then some parts one guys bible faith was being shredded by a host. Not so sophisticated, but somethings they say are true. They have done some studies preparing to debate with people.

But its pretty lame to blame anything on religion. If you do study a bit of sociological ideas and findings in this topic you would see how ignorant the notion to blame religion is. Its nonsensical. Its more of a love to hate than being actually superior in knowledge and reason like these two people and many others seem to display.

I think most of them are former religious people, Christians, Mormons, JWs etc., that were as convinced of the truth of it as anyone else are here on RF, but for different reasons became atheists. So very few of them are "born" atheists so to speak.

If you take JWs and them shunning former members, or when certain Muslims end up killing other family members (usually daughters) because they behave "wrong" wouldn't you say that is religious motivated?

 

[firedragon]

I think most of them are former religious people, Christians, Mormons, JWs etc., that were as convinced of the truth of it as anyone else are here on RF, but for different reasons became atheists. So very few of them are "born" atheists so to speak.

I understand that.

If you take JWs and them shunning former members, or when certain Muslims end up killing other family members (usually daughters) because they behave "wrong" wouldn't you say that is religious motivated?

Not at all. Its cultural. You should do some studying before making such profound statements. This kind of statement spreads hatred mate. You should know that.

This kind of honour killings are very famous in India. Predominantly a daughter or a son running off with someone. ITs the shame in society that they worry about. Do you know how these societies behave?

In most countries Honour killings are not recorded as honour killings. Lets say a country like El Salvador, which is the worst in the world in honour killings by definition, does not record them as honour killings. 80 of them are Christian, and I cant see any Christian teaching that teaches this.

You've got it all wrong mate. All wrong.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There have been some talk about new atheism and how some think it is wrong and they are just trying to get rid of religions etc.

Im not as such against religions, but I do mind when they become harmful. Now I would like to ask those religious people that either hold the believe that atheism are bad, emotionless and want to dehumanize people to listen to this person's story or maybe if you hold the believe that atheists are just out to bully religious people, because they feel superior.

What do you think about this person's story?
(I have linked it so it start the right place, it is ONLY the second caller, not the whole video for those that want to hear it for themselves. Otherwise there is a resume below.)

Told shortly as I remember it.

Its a women (27 years old) which have been diagnosed with some sort of muscle disease, not sure what it is called, she mentions it, but I don't know what it is. Anyway the disease slowly makes her brain unable to communicate with her body, which obviously causes a lot of issues, not only with control, but also that she have problems sleeping because she occasionally stop breathing etc.

She were raised as part of the church of Christ, I believe it is, which is following Christianity, but apparently it is a bit more extreme than normally. Meaning that women are not allowed to laugh in church or even speak, and they have to wear certain clothing etc.

Anyway, her family follows this and given her disease the topic of death have been discussed, I don't know if that is an unavoidable thing with this disease or if there is medication or procedures to deal with it. Her parents ain't wealthy and she just lost her job and health insurance as a result (she is from the US). She has a close and good relationship with her mother, and have gotten counselling support from one of the organizations or what to call it, that helps people with recovering from religion, because despite being an atheist, she still suffers from the effect of believing in demons and what other nonsense she have been told as a child. However her mother obviously don't agree with her being an atheist and would like her to be a Christian and tells her that she should just read the bible some more and pray etc. Which she apparently told her that she had done countless of times and that it was what made her an atheist.

Her father (stepdad) have shunt her, because she is an atheist and apparently she only have her mother left, as I understand that the rest of her family or her stepdads family either have no contact with her or won't because she is an atheist. She is obviously pretty desperate, as she from what I can understand and as it is common in some of these religious groups is to avoid contact with atheists. And she as she said, don't want to end up as one of those that consider suicide as the only option.

(This is how well I can remember what she told, might have missed out some details.)

So, basically you have a person here, which are not convinced or believe the same as the rest of her family and as a result this is how she is treated, a girl already acknowledged that she is an atheist, but still has to deal with the religious brainwashing in regards to demons and what not.

Keep in mind that im not saying that all religions or religious teachings are like this!!!

All the Founders of religions and Their Holy Books teach to love one another, to be kind to all and to live a virtuous life serving humanity and to harm no one.

Priests and religious leaders on the other hand, have initiated wars, created hatred and prejudice between people and promoted things like terrorism. Both they and the people who listen to them are to blame for we have been given our own eyes to see for ourselves and our own minds to think with.

Had we just followed the original teachings of love and unity taught by the Prophets, without turning to priests and clergy, we would all now be living in peace and prosperity.

 

[Nimos]

I understand that.
Not at all. Its cultural. You should do some studying before making such profound statements. This kind of statement spreads hatred mate. You should know that.

This kind of honour killings are very famous in India. Predominantly a daughter or a son running off with someone. ITs the shame in society that they worry about. Do you know how these societies behave?

In most countries Honour killings are not recorded as honour killings. Lets say a country like El Salvador, which is the worst in the world in honour killings by definition, does not record them as honour killings. 80 of them are Christian, and I cant see any Christian teaching that teaches this.

You've got it all wrong mate. All wrong.

Im not saying that Islam is encouraging this in any way and I agree that it happens within other religions as well. But religion plays a huge role in how our culture is shaped, how we ought to treat each other etc. And therefore what we consider to be right and wrong.

For instance a lot of religions do not accept or find premarital sex to be a sin, so could one think that a girl that did this and who lost her virginity premarital, could be considered to having dishonored the family? Or if a girl did anything that do not fall inline with religious teachings, such as drinking, wearing certain clothing etc?

So even if religious texts, whether that is the bible or the quran say that this is not acceptable, they provide a lot a guidelines of how one ought to behave according to these teachings and that if you don't, that something is wrong with you and in many cases that you should be punished or in other ways excluded.

So even if religion is not the direct driving force behind it, I don't think one can say that it doesn't play a huge role in how we perceive the world, what we consider to be acceptable and what is not acceptable, and how this could easily be related to honor.

 

[Nimos]

All the Founders of religions and Their Holy Books teach to love one another, to be kind to all and to live a virtuous life serving humanity and to harm no one.

They definitely do not.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
10 - “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive,
11 - and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife,
12 - and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails.
13 - And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.
14 - But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 - “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them,
19 - then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives,
20 - and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
21 - Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 - “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
29 - then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

And the list goes on.

Had we just followed the original teachings of love and unity taught by the Prophets, without turning to priests and clergy, we would all now be living in peace and prosperity.

In that case, you would have to follow the rules above, including all the others found in the Bible.

Priests and religious leaders on the other hand, have initiated wars, created hatred and prejudice between people and promoted things like terrorism. Both they and the people who listen to them are to blame for we have been given our own eyes to see for ourselves and our own minds to think with.

Priests and religious leaders interpret and guide people to how they ought to behave and follow the teachings. And they do this differently depending on what religious view they follow.

The issue is, that you can interpret the texts in so many different ways, that you can't say that those that believe that terrorism is fine is wrong, because they as everyone else believe that they have the correct interpretation and that everyone else is wrong. And there is no authority on who is right or wrong. So a Muslim that don't think these terrorist are correct, can cite verse after verse about how they are wrong, but it matters nothing, because they would simply cite whatever verses they believe back up their claims and equally say that this Muslim is not a true follower of Islam.

 

[firedragon]

Im not saying that Islam is encouraging this in any way and I agree that it happens within other religions as well. But religion plays a huge role in how our culture is shaped, how we ought to treat each other etc. And therefore what we consider to be right and wrong.

Please read a bit on sociology of religion. Its better than making speculations. Cannot engage with this level of speculation.

For instance a lot of religions do not accept or find premarital sex to be a sin, so could one think that a girl that did this and who lost her virginity premarital, could be considered to having dishonored the family? Or if a girl did anything that do not fall inline with religious teachings, such as drinking, wearing certain clothing etc?

Maybe do some research why El Salvador is so high up in this and come up with assumptions based on that research?

So even if religion is not the direct driving force behind it, I don't think one can say that it doesn't play a huge role in how we perceive the world, what we consider to be acceptable and what is not acceptable, and how this could easily be related to honor.

Hmm. So you think to be scientific, rational, educated, brilliant are "forced" by religions and as you say "a huge role" was played by religion? One standard. What do you say?

 

[Nimos]

Please read a bit on sociology of religion. Its better than making speculations. Cannot engage with this level of speculation.



Maybe do some research why El Salvador is so high up in this and come up with assumptions based on that research?



Hmm. So you think to be scientific, rational, educated, brilliant are "forced" by religions and as you say "a huge role" was played by religion? One standard. What do you say?

So what do you believe is motivating honor killings?

 

[firedragon]

So what do you believe is motivating honor killings?

Said already.

It's a culture issue.

Anyway you didnt answer the question I asked.

o you think to be scientific, rational, educated, brilliant are "forced" by religions and as you say "a huge role" was played by religion? One standard. What do you say?

 

[Nimos]

Said already.

It's a culture issue.

Anyway you didnt answer the question I asked.

I don't disagree with you that it is cultural based. Do you agree that religious beliefs play a huge role in how our culture is shaped?

o you think to be scientific, rational, educated, brilliant are "forced" by religions and as you say "a huge role" was played by religion? One standard. What do you say?

I don't understand the question, try to write it in a different way?

 

[firedragon]

I don't disagree with you that it is cultural based. Do you agree that religious beliefs play a huge role in how our culture is shaped?

Of course. It works both ways.

I don't understand the question, try to write it in a different way?

Hmm.

You claim that culture is shaped hugely by religion. So do you think the culture of scientific advancement, education, advancement, reason, are all influenced by religion "hugely"?

Same standard.

 

[Nimos]

Of course. It works both ways.



Hmm.

You claim that culture is shaped hugely by religion. So do you think the culture of scientific advancement, education, advancement, reason, are all influenced by religion "hugely"?

Same standard.

Yes, religions have played a huge role in these as well, some for better and some for the worse. Islamic culture used to be the forefront of many of these ideas that we use in science now, like mathematics etc. But unfortunately religious beliefs or motivation were also one of the major reasons why it stopped being that. Can't remember the name of who it were that ruined it. But I think that science would part from it eventually no matter what, because as we know it clashes with many of the religious ideas, so the conflict would have occurred no matter what. Im not sure what you mean with reason in regard to this? but if you mean morality then sure. Again in some cases it have been beneficial and in others very bad.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, religions have played a huge role in these as well, some for better and some for the worse. Islamic culture used to be the forefront of many of these ideas that we use in science now, like mathematics etc. But unfortunately religious beliefs or motivation were also one of the major reasons why it stopped being that.

Yeah. I have heard this typical missionary style polemics. Its pretty uneducated guesswork really.

And you obviously have double standards so you had to bring something to cheapen Islam from somewhere to an unrelated question. Strange.

Can't remember the name of who it were that ruined it.

Oh I know very very very well who you are referring to. Did you hear it from somewhere? Is that the level of education, reason and critical thinking in your worldview? Hear something, and repeat it because it was said by one of your prophetic figures!

Try to study the subject yourself. Dont hero worship someone and swallow what they say so blindly. Thats not critical thinking.

The end.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Is a knife harmful?
No. But it can be.

 

[firedragon]

Is a knife harmful?
No. But it can be.

Water can be more harmful.

 

[Nimos]

Yeah. I have heard this typical missionary style polemics. Its pretty uneducated guesswork really.

And you obviously have double standards so you had to bring something to cheapen Islam from somewhere to an unrelated question. Strange.



Oh I know very very very well who you are referring to. Did you hear it from somewhere? Is that the level of education, reason and critical thinking in your worldview? Hear something, and repeat it because it was said by one of your prophetic figures!

Try to study the subject yourself. Dont hero worship someone and swallow what they say so blindly. Thats not critical thinking.

The end.

So religious beliefs and science doesn't clash at all?