Is religion harmful?

[firedragon]

So religious beliefs and science doesn't clash at all?

How is that relevant now?

And the answer is, some religions have clashes with science. Some scientists were persecuted etc etc. Well, some atheists persecuted and murdered theists and priests. This happens. But that does not make it an objective truth proposition.

The two word answer to your question is, not necessarily.

Anyway that was a strawman.

 

[Nimos]

And the answer is, some religions have clashes with science. Some scientists were persecuted etc etc. Well, some atheists persecuted and murdered theists and priests. This happens. But that does not make it an objective truth proposition.

Doesn't make what an objective truth proposition?

 

[firedragon]

Doesn't make what an objective truth proposition?

Not at all Nimos. How could that? Can you explain?

Just note that this conversation has moved away from every single thing that was discussed. No worries. Let me hear you.

Cheers.

 

[Nimos]

Not at all Nimos. How could that? Can you explain?

Just note that this conversation has moved away from every single thing that was discussed. No worries. Let me hear you.

Cheers.

I would agree. I hardly know what you are talking about at this point

I asked for clarification about what you meant or were referring to with what you wrote and you ask me for an explanation?

 

[firedragon]

I would agree. I hardly know what you are talking about at this point

I asked for clarification about what you meant or were referring to with what you wrote and you ask me for an explanation?

Strange you cant understand some simple English sentences.

1. You said that when it comes to "honour killings" religions had a "Huge" influence. And you claim that religions have a "Huge" influence on society, period.

2. I am asking you to serve with the same spoon. Do religions have the same kind of "Huge" influence on the science, critical thinking, and reason in society.

What in this is so hard to understand.?

 

[Nimos]

Strange you cant understand some simple English sentences.

1. You said that when it comes to "honour killings" religions had a "Huge" influence. And you claim that religions have a "Huge" influence on society, period.

2. I am asking you to serve with the same spoon. Do religions have the same kind of "Huge" influence on the science, critical thinking, and reason in society.

What in this is so hard to understand.?

Excellent attitude you have, I like that. Didn't know asking for clarification could make people behave like that.

Anyway, I said that religions have had and have a huge influence on our culture and how we behave and treat each other, what is considered morally right and wrong etc. That is not to say that religions are the sole purpose for why honor killings might occur, but if it is highly motivated by culture one could wonder how come some people reach the conclusion that if their daughters want to have relationships or sex before married, why that is an issue in the first place, ain't they as free as men to do whatever they please? And where did this idea that they are not allowed to do as they please just like everyone else is come from. So why would anyone's honor be lessen by a girl doing what she like to do.

Religions also have an impact on our society when it comes to science. I don't see it having any impact on critical thinking and don't understand what you mean with reason in society, but to avoid pissing you off, Ill just ignore that.

For the most part religion in modern day society either have nothing to add or a negative impact, simply because religion is not science, yet certain religious view seem very eager to make it sound as if their ideas are equally as valid as scientific theories and that these should be taught as alternatives to established science. These idea that this should be the taught is motivated by religion.

That is not to say that religious people can't do science, a lot can do it without having to mix their religious beliefs into it.

 

[firedragon]

Excellent attitude you have, I like that. Didn't know asking for clarification could make people behave like that.

Anyway, I said that religions have had and have a huge influence on our culture and how we behave and treat each other, what is considered morally right and wrong etc. That is not to say that religions are the sole purpose for why honor killings might occur, but if it is highly motivated by culture one could wonder how come some people reach the conclusion that if their daughters want to have relationships or sex before married, why that is an issue in the first place, ain't they as free as men to do whatever they please? And where did this idea that they are not allowed to do as they please just like everyone else is come from. So why would anyone's honor be lessen by a girl doing what she like to do.

Religions also have an impact on our society when it comes to science. I don't see it having any impact on critical thinking and don't understand what you mean with reason in society, but to avoid pissing you off, Ill just ignore that.

For the most part religion in modern day society either have nothing to add or a negative impact, simply because religion is not science, yet certain religious view seem very eager to make it sound as if their ideas are equally as valid as scientific theories and that these should be taught as alternatives to established science. These idea that this should be the taught is motivated by religion.

That is not to say that religious people can't do science, a lot can do it without having to mix their religious beliefs into it.

So the bottom-line is, when it comes to religion, it has a "huge part" in things like "honour killings" but not in scientific advancement.

Hypocritical.

See, its very difficult to engage with hypocrisy. Not easy.

 

[Nimos]

So the bottom-line is, when it comes to religion, it has a "huge part" in things like "honour killings" but not in scientific advancement.

Hypocritical.

See, its very difficult to engage with hypocrisy. Not easy.

Just because religion has an affect on one thing doesn't mean that it automatically have an affect on something else. So in your opinion, how is or can you give an example of how religion have been a direct player in regards to scientific advancements? What theories or new scientific discoveries etc. would you say have come about as a direct result of religion?

Because I already told you, that religious people can do science just fine, so being religious is not an issue at all.

 

[firedragon]

Just because religion has an affect on one thing doesn't mean that it automatically have an affect on something else.

Excellent. Apply that same standard in everything.

Cheers.

 

[Nimos]

Excellent. Apply that same standard in everything.

Cheers.

Sorry that makes no sense. Just because you have one type of medicine to deal with one thing, doesn't mean that it will positively cure any other illness also, it might in fact make it worse.

Same reason, that I wouldn't say that religion have a huge impact on the hippie culture in society, despite that also being presence. So it depends what we are talking about. Religion can have positive effects on some things and not so much on others or none at all. Its not a critic of religion, simply that just because something is part of society and might have a positive effect one place, doesn't mean that it automatically is positive in all aspects of society.

But leave that. I got the impression that I was unfair in regards to religion and science, so I would very much like to hear if you have any examples of that, because I might not be aware?

 

[loverofhumanity]

They definitely do not.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14
10 - “When you go out to war against your enemies, and the LORD your God gives them into your hand and you take them captive,
11 - and you see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire to take her to be your wife,
12 - and you bring her home to your house, she shall shave her head and pare her nails.
13 - And she shall take off the clothes in which she was captured and shall remain in your house and lament her father and her mother a full month. After that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife.
14 - But if you no longer delight in her, you shall let her go where she wants. But you shall not sell her for money, nor shall you treat her as a slave, since you have humiliated her.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 - “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them,
19 - then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives,
20 - and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
21 - Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 - “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
29 - then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days.

And the list goes on.


In that case, you would have to follow the rules above, including all the others found in the Bible.


Priests and religious leaders interpret and guide people to how they ought to behave and follow the teachings. And they do this differently depending on what religious view they follow.

The issue is, that you can interpret the texts in so many different ways, that you can't say that those that believe that terrorism is fine is wrong, because they as everyone else believe that they have the correct interpretation and that everyone else is wrong. And there is no authority on who is right or wrong. So a Muslim that don't think these terrorist are correct, can cite verse after verse about how they are wrong, but it matters nothing, because they would simply cite whatever verses they believe back up their claims and equally say that this Muslim is not a true follower of Islam.

These laws were for a time and age that there was no police, prisons, courts, judges or rehabilitation centres.

Also are you saying that 1.7 billion Muslims are violent and interpret the Quran in a violent manner? I don’t know of 1.7 billion violent Muslims. You are unjustly painting almost 2 billion innocent people with the same brush. That is a gross injustice.

If you consult history, it’s the religious leaders who are to blame.

The Quran cannot be interpreted wrongfully as far as premeditated murder and violence are concerned. If you have studied the Quran thoroughly you would be aware of such verses as this which are as clear as the sun. Of course people take verses out of context, but those who know the Quran can pick this up very easily.


2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

 

[Honestly]

I believe that religion has resulted in allot of good in the world. Most religions teach good principles and many people embrace them and try to become better. However, there are many prideful people who want to cause contention and who embrace hatred. Some of these people do so in the name of their religion. Impure minds tend to twist existing doctrines. Steven Covey said that we see the world not as it is but as we are.

If you think about it, civilization has been highly influenced by religious thought, and our freedoms and laws are a reflextion of this.

 

[Nimos]

These laws were for a time and age that there was no police, prisons, courts, judges or rehabilitation centres.

Also are you saying that 1.7 billion Muslims are violent and interpret the Quran in a violent manner? I don’t know of 1.7 billion violent Muslims. You are unjustly painting almost 2 billion innocent people with the same brush. That is a gross injustice.

If you consult history, it’s the religious leaders who are to blame.

The Quran cannot be interpreted wrongfully as far as premeditated murder and violence are concerned. If you have studied the Quran thoroughly you would be aware of such verses as this which are as clear as the sun. Of course people take verses out of context, but those who know the Quran can pick this up very easily.


2:190 And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: but commit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not such injustice:

I don't think you read what I wrote correctly.

The first part are quotes from the bible said by God to man, so even if we blame the priests and religious leaders. That doesn't change what the bible said God told man. So do we blame the biblical writers for this then?

I didn't at any point say that ALL Muslims are terrorists, simply that certain Muslim groups uses the religious teachings to justify what they do. Also I would like to point out, that these terrorists terrorize way more Muslims that they disagree with, than they do of any other religious or none religious people. It just happens to be that these terrorists uses Islam to justify what they do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Unfortunately, people like to bash what they know nothing of out of ignorant prejudice.

Harsh laws in previous religions were created to maintain law and order because of the desert environment and the

I don't think you read what I wrote correctly.

The first part are quotes from the bible said by God to man, so even if we blame the priests and religious leaders. That doesn't change what the bible said God told man. So do we blame the biblical writers for this then?


I didn't at any point say that ALL Muslims are terrorists, simply that certain Muslim groups uses the religious teachings to justify what they do. Also I would like to point out, that these terrorists terrorize way more Muslims that they disagree with, than they do of any other religious or none religious people. It just happens to be that these terrorists uses Islam to justify what they do.

My sincerest apologies if I misread your post. I’ll try again. Thanks for pointing that out.

These are laws created for a different age and time. If a woman is captured in war she must be not held as a prisoner but given adequate time to grieve for the loss of her parents then she may be taken as a wife but if one doesn’t feel attracted to her then she must be let go free and cannot be owned or sold as a slave.

The uncontrollable son who is a drunkard being stoned to death. This is a harsh law intended to act as a deterrent and yes it is harsh but in that age they did not possess the facilities we have now so punishments were more severe. Today they have been replaced by more humane laws.

As to Muslims it’s impossible to use Islam for what they do except to deceive those who truly don’t know anything about Islam.

Terrorists take advantage of the wests ignorance of the Quran and say that what they do is supported by God, but to those who know, we know that is false because nowhere in Islam is premeditated murder of innocents permitted. But people in the west have not studied Islam deeply so are easily fooled and deceived that their violent acts originate from God. Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[Nimos]

The uncontrollable son who is a drunkard being stoned to death. This is a harsh law intended to act as a deterrent and yes it is harsh but in that age they did not possess the facilities we have now so punishments were more severe. Today they have been replaced by more humane laws.

Do you believe a child ought to unconditionally obey their parents? Do you think that even if a child is rebellious towards their parents that stoning is an acceptable solution, even if you don't have the means as we have to day? And do you think a God telling people to do this cares as much for the child as he does the parents, because I fail to see how the child is getting out of this in a good way?

As to Muslims it’s impossible to use Islam for what they do except to deceive those who truly don’t know anything about Islam.

I won't say whether that is the case or not. Yet they do it anyway. Christians would probably say that "witch" killing isn't part of the bible, yet they managed to justify it anyway.

Terrorists take advantage of the wests ignorance of the Quran and say that what they do is supported by God, but to those who know, we know that is false because nowhere in Islam is premeditated murder of innocents permitted. But people in the west have not studied Islam deeply so are easily fooled and deceived that their violent acts originate from God. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Honestly I think its the other way around, I don't think they give a rats *** what the west think about the Quran, Islam or anything. They are "after" the Muslims, those are the ones they would like to convert to follow their teachings, I don't think they expect to convert a lot of Christians or atheists etc. to their cause. They obviously use western culture, religion, atheists and probably also the "wrong" Muslims as examples and excuses to get people to join their cause, these are the common enemy of what they want to do.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you believe a child ought to unconditionally obey their parents? Do you think that even if a child is rebellious towards their parents that stoning is an acceptable solution, even if you don't have the means as we have to day? And do you think a God telling people to do this cares as much for the child as he does the parents, because I fail to see how the child is getting out of this in a good way?


I won't say whether that is the case or not. Yet they do it anyway. Christians would probably say that "witch" killing isn't part of the bible, yet they managed to justify it anyway.


Honestly I think its the other way around, I don't think they give a rats *** what the west think about the Quran, Islam or anything. They are "after" the Muslims, those are the ones they would like to convert to follow their teachings, I don't think they expect to convert a lot of Christians or atheists etc. to their cause. They obviously use western culture, religion, atheists and probably also the "wrong" Muslims as examples and excuses to get people to join their cause, these are the common enemy of what they want to do.

I see your point. How old is this ‘child’? I understand your objections but we cannot justly compare compare one age to another as firstly we were not there, don’t have all the facts and we can’t judge past ages by todays standards.

For those times what was best for the people is not for us to judge because we can’t possibly understand those times with our current mindset.

The interpretation of crime and such changes from age to age and people to people.

 

[Nimos]

I see your point. How old is this ‘child’? I understand your objections but we cannot justly compare compare one age to another as firstly we were not there, don’t have all the facts and we can’t judge past ages by todays standards.

For those times what was best for the people is not for us to judge because we can’t possibly understand those times with our current mindset.

The interpretation of crime and such changes from age to age and people to people.

I agree to a certain extend.

Im not really sure when children were considered adults according to the bible. But despite that I can't see how stoning a child to death is considered the best solution. And again this is God telling humans what they should do in these cases, so I would assume that this is what God think is the right thing to do. Again I don't get the impression that we are talking some sort of crime here, otherwise I think the it would clearly state that, because the words for these things are used widely around the bible.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 - “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them,
19 - then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives,
20 - and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
21 - Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

My point is simply that the bible at least doesn't really support that God is only about love and not harming each other, there is being throw a lot of punishments around in it.

 

[rational experiences]

If a man sacrificed irradiated by conditions theories by men of science as gods causes. It says you are hypocrites science men... then you are.

Hypocrites all of you.

Loving kind caring innocent my family equal human first. Natural life never represented by a science spruiker.

So a scientist the hypocrite writes the bible claiming we the destroyer hurt the healer.

Natural life nature aware living human. Natural life conscious aware acute. Knows medical herbal practice for human families biology. Natural balanced knowledge in life.

That type of human hypocrite theoried science for human practice as designed invention.

Your consciousness as thinking controlled the machine as if men gave a machine consciousness. Dust converting.

You then became psyche chemical changed converted in biology. Were AI subliminal coerced. By designed man's science. Radio wave radiating feedback.

Medical position changed.

So then you have to socially deal with irradiated depraved communal behaviours. Irradiated humanity by fallout. Spirit of heavens gas burnt.

You stated I caused criminal mind. I caused the mind to believe in rape adultery. I caused human relationships in consciousness to change.

You confessed.

So medical science said I must introduce brain behaviour control entrainment. I have lost the social community in support. I have created a huge problem for myself.

Built the resonating water healing that changed in the building healing practice new building church.

Destroyed old science temples yourselves. Science outlawed had introduced outside of church in nature radiation fallout.

Hypocrites in person.

Now nature water study proves the church water no longer heals in resonance.

Prophecy Satan will enter the church building. Radiation effect.

Hypocrites scientists are.

Natural man innocent was first.

Brothers agreed in science.

Science was the great civilization architect first. Then built science.

Science made human family become enslaved.

Hypocrites the rich men of science and invention became rich by science invetion and fear tactics.

Natural humans taught in school by enforced religious control the sciences. Religion was in fact a story of mans enslavement and life sacrificed.

It taught science temple had caused life change. It was the teacher who no longer taught the truth. Humans.

So don't blame the book. Yet you do.

Liars as the history of lies.

Never did they preach by science that science was wrong. In schools.

Religious idealism after re irradiated 0 to 1000 years later. Humans in mind behaviour heavy metal dementias Unable to verbalise science by intellect was wrong. They only acted out bad behaviours until a healed human mind re emerged.

Scientists the hypocrites. Human men.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I agree to a certain extend.

Im not really sure when children were considered adults according to the bible. But despite that I can't see how stoning a child to death is considered the best solution. And again this is God telling humans what they should do in these cases, so I would assume that this is what God think is the right thing to do. Again I don't get the impression that we are talking some sort of crime here, otherwise I think the it would clearly state that, because the words for these things are used widely around the bible.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 - “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them,
19 - then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives,
20 - and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’
21 - Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

My point is simply that the bible at least doesn't really support that God is only about love and not harming each other, there is being throw a lot of punishments around in it.

What we don’t know is if the son committed a serious crime or not. God is not only about love but also justice.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry that makes no sense. Just because you have one type of medicine to deal with one thing, doesn't mean that it will positively cure any other illness also, it might in fact make it worse.

You are confirming that you have two standards and you cant get away from it.