Is religion inferior to logic ?

[MikeF]

It would have played out very similarly to what it did because declarations of divine or 'inerrant' ideology don't convince anyone. And you can't make people follow them when they don't accept them; not without brute force. And even that won't succeed in the end. All that happens is a lot of unnecessary suffering.

Why would anyone do that? Especially a public representative. I still can't figure out why so many atheists feel the need to run around telling us all what they DON'T believe. Why would anyone care what they don't believe? Why would they think anyone else would care? It makes no sense. It's the old; "whatever it is, I'm AGIN IT!" meme.

The playing field of ideas is never level. Culture is always going to be a collection of biases. A healthy culture will be aware of that, however, and therefor able to re-assess itself and adapt to achieve better results.

Of course these questions need to be considered. But what matters more are the ethical imperatives being used to determine the answers. Is better really better? How do we tell? And it's better for whom? And why them? Better compared to what other oprions? "God says so" or "it's the law!" or "my tribe believes ..." doesn't teach anyone anything. And it's why this kind of morality doesn't work. It keeps people blind and stupid. But it's still better than nothing at all.

We are running out of time. Science has finally given us the ability to annihilate ourselves, entirely. The proverbial loaded pistols are in the monkey's cage, now. And sooner or late one of those monkeys is going to pick one of those pistols up and start shooting it because he just doesn't know any better. And there is nothing in our culture that is currently helping us recognize and understand why we should not pick up those pistols, or let anyone else pick them up. Instead, some fool yells "WAR!" and a thousand more fools grab their guns and run to the fight. Even though death and destruction is all that ever results from it.

We are so ethically and morally blind that we think warfare is a good course of action. This has to change. And it's not just the violence of warfare, itself. It's the violence of political oppression, and the violence of economic oppression, and the violence of hopelessness and meaninglessness and of fundamental neglect.

They lie and deceive children because they know they can't lie and deceive most adults.

I'll let your comments be final closing arguments. We can leave it in the hands of the jury to decide.

 

[MikeF]

Of course, but I doubt that you and I will reach the same conclusion.

I don't think so.
Belief in Scripture is not identical to belief in Marx or Keynes.

Scriptures are not identical to one another either, nor is Marx to Keynes. When we group things in categories, we do so on *similar* properties, not the identical nature of the elements of the category. But here we are talking about belief and belief is a neuro-physiological product of the central nervous system. In that regard, they are in the same category.

Yes.
Demographics obviously comes into it.
..but we can see that Christianity and Islam have become multicultural,
and established civilisations, with their universities etc.

Hmmmm. Again, I encorage you to study some history. Is it your contention that the civilizations and educational systems around the Mediteranian sea, say beinning in the 6th century BC, are all the product of Christianity and Islam? LINK What of Mesoamerican civilizations such as the Aztecs, Incans, Mayans, Olmecs, etc. All to be credited to Christianity and Islam?

You can assume that it would have happened anyway, without religion..
..but that would be a pure assumption.

In our analysis, we have to keep the whole scope of the human experience in play, not simply look a one brief slice of time in one small corner of the earth. To do otherwise is self-defeating if the goal is to develop credible, cogent conclusions.

Churches and Mosques provided community cohesion

I agree and not one of the points of criticism.

 

[MikeF]

..but we can see that Christianity and Islam have become multicultural,
and established civilisations, with their universities etc.

You can assume that it would have happened anyway, without religion..
..but that would be a pure assumption.

I would also encourage you to explore why The Dark Ages are called such, that period from the fall of Rome to the beinning of the Enlightenment, and what role religion played.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..here we are talking about belief and belief is a neuro-physiological product of the central nervous system. In that regard, they are in the same category.

Hmm .. for me, it is about thoughts, and not electrical impulse.

In our analysis, we have to keep the whole scope of the human experience in play, not simply look a one brief slice of time in one small corner of the earth. To do otherwise is self-defeating if the goal is to develop credible, cogent conclusions..

Yes .. we have to look at the whole..
However, the further we go back, the less reliable our perception of events becomes.

..and even in relatively recent history, its perception varies depending on nationality, for example.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would also encourage you to explore why The Dark Ages are called such, that period from the fall of Rome to the beinning of the Enlightenment, and what role religion played.

OK .. that's about history of Christianity, and the politics of catholic church .. as I understand it.

 

[MikeF]

Hmm .. for me, it is about thoughts, and not electrical impulse.

I understand.

Yes .. we have to look at the whole..
However, the further we go back, the less reliable our perception of events becomes.

..and even in relatively recent history, its perception varies depending on nationality, for example.

Certainly. I agree completely. I especially like that you appreciate that one's culture can influence the way in which one perceived not only their own culture, but that of others. Scholarship requires both the awarness of the problems and active efforts to mitigate those effects.

 

[MikeF]

OK .. that's about history of Christianity, and the politics of catholic church .. as I understand it.

The period being marked by economic, intellectual and cultural decline. I prompted you to look into it, as well as into what factors led to its resolution, in response to your implication that all the benefits we see today (multiculturalism, universites, etc) were a result of the rise of Christianity and Islam. With Christianity getting Western culture into the Dark Ages and it took Humanism to get it out, this would contradict the view you are suggesting.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The period being marked by economic, intellectual and cultural decline. I prompted you to look into it, as well as into what factors led to its resolution, in response to your implication that all the benefits we see today (multiculturalism, universites, etc) were a result of the rise of Christianity and Islam. With Christianity getting Western culture into the Dark Ages and it took Humanism to get it out, this would contradict the view you are suggesting.

Well..

Christianity played a prominent role in the development of Western civilization, particularly in Europe from late antiquity and the Middle Ages. During the High Middle Ages, Eastern and Western Christianity grew apart, leading to the East–West Schism of 1054. Growing criticism of the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical structure and its corruption led to the Protestant Reformation and its related reform movements in the 15th and 16th centuries, which concluded with the European wars of religion that set off the split of Western Christianity. Since the Renaissance era, with the European colonization of the Americas and other continents actively instigated by the Christian churches, Christianity has expanded throughout the world. Today, there are more than two billion Christians worldwide and Christianity has become the world's largest religion.
History_of_Christianity - Wilipedia

The above is a precis, and I see that it is not "humanism" that shaped Western civilisation.

 

[MikeF]

Well..

Christianity played a prominent role in the development of Western civilization, particularly in Europe from late antiquity and the Middle Ages. During the High Middle Ages, Eastern and Western Christianity grew apart, leading to the East–West Schism of 1054. Growing criticism of the Roman Catholic ecclesiastical structure and its corruption led to the Protestant Reformation and its related reform movements in the 15th and 16th centuries, which concluded with the European wars of religion that set off the split of Western Christianity. Since the Renaissance era, with the European colonization of the Americas and other continents actively instigated by the Christian churches, Christianity has expanded throughout the world. Today, there are more than two billion Christians worldwide and Christianity has become the world's largest religion.
History_of_Christianity - Wilipedia

The above is a precis, and I see that it is not "humanism" that shaped Western civilisation.

I'm sorry, but all that doesn't say what you think it says. Your cutting and pasting what you think supports your argument is simply confirmation bias.

Let's look at this from your sources above:

The Renaissance is a period in European history marking the transition from the Middle Ages to modernity and covering the 15th and 16th centuries, characterized by an effort to revive and surpass ideas and achievements of classical antiquity. It occurred after the Crisis of the Late Middle Ages and was associated with great social change.​

​

The intellectual basis of the Renaissance was its version of humanism, derived from the concept of Roman humanitas and the rediscovery of classical Greek philosophy, such as that of Protagoras, who said that "man is the measure of all things". This new thinking became manifest in art, architecture, politics, science, and literature. Early examples were the development of perspective in oil painting and the revived knowledge of how to make concrete. Although the invention of metal movable type sped the dissemination of ideas from the later 15th century, the changes of the Renaissance were not uniform across Europe: the first traces appear in Italy as early as the late 13th century, in particular with the writings of Dante and the paintings of Giotto.​

Western culture is most strongly influenced by Greco-Roman culture, Christian culture, and, to some extent, Germanic culture.​

And other sources:

The intellectual movement later known as Renaissance humanism first appeared in Italy and has greatly influenced both contemporaneous and modern Western culture.​

​

During the Age of Enlightenment, humanistic ideas resurfaced, this time further from religion and classical literature. Science and intellectualism advanced, and humanists argued that rationality could replace deism as the means with which to understand the world. Humanistic values, such as tolerance and opposition to slavery, started to take shape.[37] New philosophical, social, and political ideas appeared. Some thinkers rejected theism outright; and atheism, deism, and hostility to organized religion were formed.​

​

The Age of Enlightenment or the Enlightenment, also known as the Age of Reason, was an intellectual and philosophical movement that occurred in Europe in the 17th and 18th centuries, with global influences and effects. The Enlightenment included a range of ideas centered on the value of human happiness, the pursuit of knowledge obtained by means of reason and the evidence of the senses, and ideals such as natural law, liberty, progress, toleration, fraternity, constitutional government, and separation of church and state.​

To say that advancement of Western culture is all about the Christianity just does not make sense. Yes it played a significant role in events and in the lives of people who lived through these periods, but when we look at what advanced Western culture, it was a revival of the Ancient Greco-Roman pursuit of knowledge and Aesthetics. Christianity, in fact, was an opposition force throughout, include reformation of itself. We do not have Christianity to thank for our modern Western culture, rather the pagan Greeks and Romans. Christianity has been dragged into modernity kicking and screaming.

 

[Bird123]

None of this is true.

I have water, but you insist I don't. You point to a mirage that you believe is real.

I never said any such thing. You really think highly of yourself and what you believe. But you don't seem able to explain what it is.

It's more accurate to say that I am well informed and educated. I have discovered there are many people in the world that believe in ideas that have no basis in fact of reality. You haven't discovered this yet.

It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose that counts. Why do you focus on what isn't? Shouldn't one be Seeking What is???

So you are well informed and educated, by what standards? In reality, there is much more that you do not know than you do. Further, your bias to have things your way leads away from truth and What is.

Once again, you are not true to yourself. What do you really seek? Is it to challenge everyone that does not fit within your box of beliefs? Is this for your emotional security? Are you so sure of your ways that you do not question them? Why do you not know yourself? Why do you not know what you seek? Aren't your actions showing what you really seek? To what end do you choose this path?

To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. There are always more questions to ask for there is always more to Discover. Do you seek??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

OK, explain cancers, especially in children. God's design?

Usually believers try to offer excuses and deflection. I think you're to first to admit God is a serial killer. That's got to lead to some disturbing inner thoughts.

Because God is insane. No humanist in God's place would do such things.

Odd statement. Are you assuming I'm confined to a wheel chair and had a miracle?

And you say religious people are leading their way through with emotions. I see very little difference between you and them.

More knowledge lives beyond the surface. By starting to walk, I thought just maybe you could have reached a level of starting to advance your thinking and widening your view beyond feeling your way through. God places knowledge around us all. It waits to be Discovered. You did not see a good starting point when it stares you in the face. You say I tell you nothing. Look again. Don't let it go over your head.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

I follow Advaita Hinduism (complete non-duality without any exception). Therefore I do not believe in existence of any God or Goddess. I accept that everything is the same, not just connected, living as well as non-living. There is no more space to widen my views.

That is where you are wrong. There is always more space to widen one's views well beyond the limits each person places on themselves. Question rather than accept. There is always more just beyond the next door we each open along our journey.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is where you are wrong. There is always more space to widen one's views well beyond the limits each person places on themselves. Question rather than accept. There is always more just beyond the next door we each open along our journey.

At the moment there is nothing beyond the door. There is the question of existence and non-existence. Why things exist? Science cannot answer that now. It will take science some decades or centuries to find that out - not in my life-time. So, I leave those questions to future generations.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm sorry, but all that doesn't say what you think it says. Your cutting and pasting what you think supports your argument is simply confirmation bias.

No .. I quoted that as a precis that includes the time period you asked me to consider..

To say that advancement of Western culture is all about the Christianity just does not make sense. Yes it played a significant role in events and in the lives of people who lived through these periods, but when we look at what advanced Western culture, it was a revival of the Ancient Greco-Roman pursuit of knowledge and Aesthetics.

The cultural influence of the Church has been vast. Church scholars preserved literacy in Western Europe following the Fall of the Western Roman Empire. During the Middle Ages, the Church rose to replace the Roman Empire as the unifying force in Europe. The medieval cathedrals remain among the most iconic architectural feats produced by Western civilization. Many of Europe's universities were also founded by the church at that time. Many historians state that universities and cathedral schools were a continuation of the interest in learning promoted by monasteries.
Role_of_Christianity_in_civilization - Wikipedia

We do not have Christianity to thank for our modern Western culture, rather the pagan Greeks and Romans. Christianity has been dragged into modernity kicking and screaming.

We all know that Christianity has been declining, and being replaced by secular values.

 

[Valjean]

Hmm .. for me, it is about thoughts, and not electrical impulse.
And what creates the thoughts?

 

[Bird123]

At the moment there is nothing beyond the door. There is the question of existence and non-existence. Why things exist? Science cannot answer that now. It will take science some decades or centuries to find that out - not in my life-time. So, I leave those questions to future generations.

There actually is something beyond that door and more doors beyond that door.

We are all Spiritual beings in our true natures. There will always be existence. On the other hand, it's not in any one physical form.

Why do people exist? God knows what most parents know. Children make life grand.

You might not realize this but Eternity has purpose. There will always be something to do.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Aupmanyav]

There will always be existence. On the other hand, it's not in any one physical form.
You might not realize this but Eternity has purpose.

Not sure of that, it seems to be a human bias.
It seems stumbling here and there is the only purpose of the universe.
Galaxies come, galaxies go.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Therefore Pizza = Flatbread + Sauce + Cheese +/- Anchovies

And NEVER with pineapple! Ever, ever!

That's blasphemy, only deserving of torches and pitchforks!

 

[Bird123]

Not sure of that, it seems to be a human bias.
It seems stumbling here and there is the only purpose of the universe.
Galaxies come, galaxies go.

Do not look at the stumbling. Look at the results. Look at the change to see the direction of the journey. How have you changed over the years? What was the catalyst that led to the change? One needs to see what is actually going on. When one understand what is going on, discovering the purpose is easy to see.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[gnostic]

Is religion inferior to logic ?

It’s really depends on what type of logic it is, what the logic being used for.

If the logic is mathematics, then yes, religions are indeed inferior.

Mathematics are useful in finding either abstract solutions or real world solutions, have wide ranging applications, depending on which types of maths being used.