"Is Religious Freedom in the U.S. Broken Beyond Repair?"

[Nous]

I believe the KKK is there to give a black eye to righteousness. Righteousness such as quoting the scriptures that homosexuality is immoral behavior...sin and not of any small variety.

Are you a member of the KKK?

 

[Jose Fly]

Righteousness such as quoting the scriptures that homosexuality is immoral behavior...sin and not of any small variety.

If the holy book you've chosen to follow says being gay is a sin, then you shouldn't be gay. But just as you don't want to be forced to follow the dictates of a religion to which you don't belong, non-Christians don't want to be forced to live by the rules of your religion.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To charge a higher price to a group is indeed discrimination.
What if the bakery charged an extra 20% to gays?

They aren't charging extra. They still have the base rate/fee, but offer it at a discounted price to coupon holders.

What if the bakery charged an extra 20% to gays?

If their cakes cost $100, and they charge homosexuals $120, that is discrimination because they are charging extra to someone just for being gay. But if they offer a cake to a pastor for $80, that's not discrimination. The homosexuals are being charged a percentage above the base rate. The pastor is merely getting a discount. It's not really different from frequent flyer miles or point-reward programs at a gas station.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Obviously the law does not protect Hitler or Tojo by name. So what the hell are you asking?

I think it's safe to say anyone who would want to celebrate Hitler or Tojo belongs to specific creeds, such as Neo-Nazis and far-right Japanese Nationalists, and I would assume they too would be protected under the public accommodation law.

 

[Kemosloby]

If the holy book you've chosen to follow says being gay is a sin, then you shouldn't be gay. But just as you don't want to be forced to follow the dictates of a religion to which you don't belong, non-Christians don't want to be forced to live by the rules of your religion.

I call sin sin. Probably 90% of Christians have committed adultry but you don't see anyone having adulterer parades or seeking adultery rights. It's sin and honest Christians try to avoid doing it. When they do it they are supposed to confess their sins to one another, repent from that behavior, put it out of their life etc. Whether they manage to do it is not the point, the point is that they recognize it as sin and seek forgiveness for it from the Lord.

 

[Kemosloby]

Are you a member of the KKK?

Are you Hitlers youth?

 

[Jose Fly]

I call sin sin.

What is "sin" differs between religious groups. You would obviously object if you were forced by law to abide by Islam's rules, so hopefully you understand why non-Christians object at the prospect of being forced by law to abide by Christianity's rules.

Probably 90% of Christians have committed adultry but you don't see anyone having adulterer parades or seeking adultery rights.

Therefore...........?

It's sin and honest Christians try to avoid doing it. When they do it they are supposed to confess their sins to one another, repent from that behavior, put it out of their life etc. Whether they manage to do it is not the point, the point is that they recognize it as sin and seek forgiveness for it from the Lord.

And that's only relevant to Christians.

 

[Revoltingest]

You have it precisely backwards. Businesses don't add an extra surcharge to certain groups. They charge everyone the same, but give a discount to groups they want to incentivize or reward.

Try and understand the difference.

I've heard that rationale....always good for a laugh.
Once, at The People's Food Coop (yes, that's really the name), the cashier asked me if I were a
student. I explained that offering a student discount was illegal under the City Of Ann Arbor's
Human Rights Ordinance, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of educational affiliation
in all public accommodations. She explained that it's not discrimination if you're discriminating
"for" someone instead of "against" them.

Also, Michiganistan case law supports my view that a discount for one group is equivalent to
surcharging another from the perspective of illegal discrimination. (I won't cite case law. This
ist based upon experience as a landlord with advice of lawyers.)

One example is to offer a discount for paying rent (residential) on time. This can be done in
lieu of charging a slightly lower rent, but with a fee for late payment. If the discount is greater
than the legally permissible late fee, then this structure is illegal.

Another hypothetical....imagine if I offered a 5% rent discount on apartments to white girls.
Government would come down upon me like a ton of bricks because i'd be discriminating
against non-white non-girls.

Clearly, to offer something of value to one protected group, but not to another is illegal discrimination.

Try to understand the equivalence.

 

[Kemosloby]

What is "sin" differs between religious groups. You would obviously object if you were forced by law to abide by Islam's rules, so hopefully you understand why non-Christians object at the prospect of being forced by law to abide by Christianity's rules.


Therefore...........?


And that's only relevant to Christians.

Before I ever had any religion I knew homosexuality was wrong, since a child. Nobody ever had to tell me it was wrong in an unimaginable way.

 

[Revoltingest]

How many times is someone going to irrelevantly say something about Hitler on this one thread?

I don't know.
You should count them, & let us all know.

 

[Jose Fly]

I've heard the argument before....always good for a laugh.
Once, at The People's Food Coop (yes, that's really the name), the cashier asked me if I were a student.
I explained that offering a student discount was illegal under the City Of Ann Arbor's Human Rights
Ordinance, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of educational affiliation in all public accommodations.
She explained that it's not discrimination if you're discriminating "for" someone instead of "against" them.

So you don't understand the difference between a surcharge and a discount.

Also, Michiganistan case law supports my view that a discount for one group is equivalent to surcharging
another. (I won't cite case law....this is just based upon experience as a landlord with advice of lawyers.)

Then it is an unsupported claim.

Another hypothetical....imagine if I offered a 5% rent discount on apartments to white girls. Government would come down upon me like a ton of bricks.

Clearly, to offer something of value to one protected group, but not to another is illegal discrimination.

Try to understand the equivalence.

Here, educate yourself: Are Senior Citizens Discounts Legal for Small Businesses?

Price Discrimination: Robinson-Patman Violations

 

[Jose Fly]

Before I ever had any religion I knew homosexuality was wrong, since a child. Nobody ever had to tell me it was wrong in an unimaginable way.

You're dodging the point. If you want to abide by the rules of Christianity, that is your choice. But you do not get to demand that of anyone else.

 

[Revoltingest]

They aren't charging extra. They still have the base rate/fee, but offer it at a discounted price to coupon holders.

Offering a discount to one group is effectively charging others extra.
'The only difference is how it's structured....either....
1) A base price which is discounted for some, or...
2) A lower base price which is increased for others.

If their cakes cost $100, and they charge homosexuals $120, that is discrimination because they are charging extra to someone just for being gay. But if they offer a cake to a pastor for $80, that's not discrimination. The homosexuals are being charged a percentage above the base rate. The pastor is merely getting a discount. It's not really different from frequent flyer miles or point-reward programs at a gas station.

To illustrate....
Suppose Cakes cost $120, but there's a $20 discount for straight people.
Legal?
No way.
It's equivalent to pricing cakes at $100, but surcharging gays $20.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Before I ever had any religion I knew homosexuality was wrong, since a child. Nobody ever had to tell me it was wrong in an unimaginable way.

And all the people who knew it was right as a child? What of them? Why does your moral claim trump theirs?

 

[Revoltingest]

So you don't understand the difference between a surcharge and a discount.

So you don't understand how they can be employed to achieve the same result.

Then it is an unsupported claim.

True....I offer no links.
But I'd been a residential landlord here for decades, managing dozens of properties
& thousands of tenants. I've much experience enforcing leases, fighting fair housing
lawsuits, & collecting debts from tenants. I know wherefrom I speak.

Here, educate yourself: Are Senior Citizens Discounts Legal for Small Businesses?
Price Discrimination: Robinson-Patman Violations

You should read your own links.
Here, I'll help you (with some underlining)....
"As long as you’re aware of certain rules covered by federal civil rights law, you can give a
senior discount without having to worry about any legal problems. Just keep in mind that
businesses that offer products and services to the general public are not allowed to
discriminate against customers based on their race, religion, color, or origin. For example,
businesses must give the discounts equally to Jewish seniors, or African American seniors.
There should be no other restrictions for the senior discount."

Moreover, Rocket Lawyer fails to consider more restrictive state & local laws.
Not only does location affect the matter, but also the type of public accommodation,
eg, food service v real estate (more strictly regulated).

Beware any lawyer who offers legal advice for an entire country, with no caveats
about additional restrictions due to industry & location.

 

[Jose Fly]

So you don't understand how they can be employed to achieve the same result.

True....I offer no links.
But I'd been a residential landlord here for decades, managing dozens of properties
& thousands of tenants. I've much experience enforcing leases, fighting fair housing
lawsuits, & collecting debts from tenants. I know wherefrom I speak.

If you cannot support your assertions and refuse to read the legal information, I cannot help you.

 

[Nous]

I think it's safe to say anyone who would want to celebrate Hitler or Tojo belongs to specific creeds, such as Neo-Nazis and far-right Japanese Nationalists, and I would assume they too would be protected under the public accommodation law.

"Creed" generally refers to a set of religious beliefs. E.g., Definition of CREED and the definition of creed No court has suggested, much less held, that the term "creed" in public accommodations refers to political party affiliation.

In any case, since neither Hitler nor Tojo himself is going to walk into a place of business, how is anyone going to know that someone else holds some political "creed"? And what sort of business normally provides goods or services relating to political beliefs? Not bakeries, not restaurants, not grocery stores, not hospitals, not car dealerships. It's really only bumper-sticker printers, or lapel-button makers, or suchlike who normally provide such goods and services.

 

[Kemosloby]

You're dodging the point. If you want to abide by the rules of Christianity, that is your choice. But you do not get to demand that of anyone else.

That's not what we are talking about though. I'm not saying they can't be gay, but where is my right not to associate with them. Where is the cake bakers right. Delivering to a gay wedding would be like being forced to go into a gay bar...it's going to creep the guy out for weeks, maybe even months.

 

[Nous]

Are you Hitlers youth?

No, unlike your endorsement of the ideology of the KKK, I do not have Nazi opinions or beliefs.

 

[Jose Fly]

That's not what we are talking about though. I'm not saying they can't be gay, but where is my right not to associate with them.

Who says you have to associate with gays?

Where is the cake bakers right.

He is operating a public business, so under the law he is expected to serve the public. Crazy concept, eh?

Delivering to a gay wedding would be like being forced to go into a gay bar...it's going to creep the guy out for weeks, maybe even months.

If serving members of the public is such a problem for him, then he shouldn't be operating a public business.