Is "salvation" possible under the Law?

[Ben Avraham]

I know Jesus says somewhere that if you love him you should keep his commandments. So what's the difference? You guys love God and obey Him. Christians love God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and obey them. But Christians, because of Paul, makes the Law something temporary... only meant to show people how bad they are. And because they can't follow it perfectly, they're going to stay bad... unless they accept Jesus and get their soul cleansed.

But, that quote you mentioned earlier says that God will forgive your sins and make you white as snow... and without Jesus? So what's going on? It seems like it's all in the interpretations. And Christians can always play their trump card and say that God said so... in the NT. But my problem is, which I suppose is similar to yours, is that God didn't say so, not in your Scriptures. So because the NT contradicts your Scriptures in many ways, why should I assume they are from God? And if Christians say that it's "progressive" revelation... that God made things in the Jewish Scriptures more clear. Clear, meaning that all things pointed to Jesus.

But Islam and the Baha'i Faith do the same thing. They say you and the Christians didn't have "all" the truth. God revealed more. Muhammad interpreted the Jewish and Christian Scriptures correctly. Why? Because God told him the true meaning. But then, the Baha'u'llah does the same thing to all of you and says "No", that all of you have God's message wrong and that he, Baha'u'llah, has the correct and current truth from God. So who's right? They all go back to the Jews, but say that your interpretation of your own Scriptures is wrong. What's up with that?

Jesus said somewhere. He no longer can say any thing because he has been dead for 2000 years. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6) I did not say that God will forgive our sins and make us white as snow. I said that to set things right with God so that our sins become as white as snow, we must repent and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) And it has nothing to do with Jesus. BTW, nothing in the Tanach points to Jesus. Regarding the verbal juggling of nonsense between Islam and the Baha'i, can't be any other thing but nonsense. Things of religions if you know what I mean.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Maybe some people understand saved as delivered from anything hurtful.
As in, if you obey all the law, nothing bad will ever happen to you.

I think saved means to find friendship with God. A friend is a friend forever. Right?

No, nothing about man is forever. When God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23) It means that the only thing forever about man is death. And friendship with God is possible only by obeying His Law. If we obey the laws, nothing of the things as a result of transgressing the laws will happen to us. Then, indeed, to be delivered from any thing hurtful, we must obey the law regarding any thing hurtful

 

[Ben Avraham]

Moses was not saved to the promised land via the law.
If to be saved means to be perfect in the law then nobody is ever saved.

Moses was denied to enter the Promised Land because he disobeyed God's command to speak to the "Rock" when
he got upset and rather hit it in his anger at the stiff-necked people of Israel.

 

[savagewind]

No, nothing about man is forever. When God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23) It means that the only thing forever about man is death. And friendship with God is possible only by obeying His Law. If we obey the laws, nothing of the things as a result of transgressing the laws will happen to us. Then, indeed, to be delivered from any thing hurtful, we must obey the law regarding any thing hurtful

Obeying the law does not deliver every person from hurt. Look at HISTORY for goodness' sake!
How can you call yourself Jewish and believe what you do?

 

[savagewind]

Moses was denied to enter the Promised Land because he disobeyed God's command to speak to the "Rock" when
he got upset and rather hit it in his anger at the stiff-necked people of Israel.

OK. Was God's law to Moses was that he not get upset and let it turn to anger?

 

[Ben Avraham]

Obeying the law does not deliver every person from hurt. Look at HISTORY for goodness' sake!
How can you call yourself Jewish and believe what you do?

Okay, let's make use here of an analogy between two persons; one obeys the Law and is delivered from all the hurt that comes as a result of transgressing the Law. Does it make sense to you? The other person breaks the Law by committing a murder. This person is arrested and condemned either for the rest of his or her life or sentenced to death. Don't you think he or she would be delivered from that hurt if he or she had obeyed the Law? I find that obvious if you ask me.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Obeying the law does not deliver every person from hurt. Look at HISTORY for goodness' sake!
How can you call yourself Jewish and believe what you do?

What did I do to be ashamed to call myself Jewish? I just made use of Logic to express my views.

 

[CG Didymus]

...I try not to think too hard about the whole talking serpent thing. I don't think any epiphany that I might have will be helpful. The snake was talking, so crawling on it's belly is the least of my questions...

So was the serpent Satan or not? Her seed will crush the head of the serpent? So you make the "seed" Jesus and the serpent Satan there, but when it comes to crawling on its belly it's back to being only a serpent? and an unimportant detail? With that kind of manipulation people can and do make the Bible say whatever they want it to say. And how would Abraham or any other person prior to Jesus even know this was a prophecy about Satan and the coming Messiah? This is very similar to what Christians do with the "virgin"/young girl in Isaiah. They make it for sure a virgin, and the child Jesus, but where did Jesus do the other things mentioned in Isaiah about this child? So please explain the whole passage in context and then show me how it fits into being about Jesus. I'm not buying into Christians taking a verse here and a verse there and getting away with making them "prophecies" about Jesus.

So to tie it back into the OP. These people prior to Jesus got "saved", so to speak, by there faith and doing what God told them to do. And all of them fell short of being perfect, yet were considered "righteous" by God? And, as far as I can tell, with no Jesus and no believing in a supposed promise of a God/man Messiah. So explain some more, 'cause I don't get it. Thanks

 

[atpollard]

So was the serpent Satan or not? Her seed will crush the head of the serpent? So you make the "seed" Jesus and the serpent Satan there, but when it comes to crawling on its belly it's back to being only a serpent? and an unimportant detail? With that kind of manipulation people can and do make the Bible say whatever they want it to say. And how would Abraham or any other person prior to Jesus even know this was a prophecy about Satan and the coming Messiah? This is very similar to what Christians do with the "virgin"/young girl in Isaiah. They make it for sure a virgin, and the child Jesus, but where did Jesus do the other things mentioned in Isaiah about this child? So please explain the whole passage in context and then show me how it fits into being about Jesus. I'm not buying into Christians taking a verse here and a verse there and getting away with making them "prophecies" about Jesus.

So to tie it back into the OP. These people prior to Jesus got "saved", so to speak, by there faith and doing what God told them to do. And all of them fell short of being perfect, yet were considered "righteous" by God? And, as far as I can tell, with no Jesus and no believing in a supposed promise of a God/man Messiah. So explain some more, 'cause I don't get it. Thanks

Respectfully, I am not chasing down and defending every OT passage that anyone has ever told you refers to Jesus. Nothing personal, but that's not my job and too darn much work. It is also pointless and has the whole thing backwards.

I do not believe in Jesus "because the Bible says so". I believe in Jesus because he has proven himself real to me. If and How God and Jesus reveal themself to you, is between you and Him. I can convince you of nothing.

Starting from what I know to be true about Jesus/God, I find that the Bible (NT) has the best track record at explaining and aligning with reality as I perceive it. So I believe the Bible because Jesus says so, and not the other way around.

To address the issue of saved and the OT vs NT from the 10,000 foot view one last time. Other parts of the Bible tell us that it was Satan, but I say screw the snake, it is not the important detail. The important detail is that starting with even the first 'perfect' people, we are in trouble, God promised to send someone to fix it and people have always either trusted God, or not. Those who trust God, have that trust credited as righteousness. Jesus fixed my sin, changed my inner being, and transformed my life.

I believe it was the same for Seth and Enoch and Noah and Abraham. You are free to believe whatever you want.

If you really want to argue about literal snakes, then did Cain, Able or Seth crush the head of the talking snake and hurt their literal foot? Why did God make such a big deal about an event so trivial that it wasn't even recorded?

... unless it was a prophecy about a coming Son of Eve who would remove the curse that led to death for the human race. Then everyone who trusts in God, whether they know it or not, it trusting in Jesus ... the one who fulfills that promise.

 

[savagewind]

Okay, let's make use here of an analogy between two persons; one obeys the Law and is delivered from all the hurt that comes as a result of transgressing the Law. Does it make sense to you? The other person breaks the Law by committing a murder. This person is arrested and condemned either for the rest of his or her life or sentenced to death. Don't you think he or she would be delivered from that hurt if he or she had obeyed the Law? I find that obvious if you ask me.

Yes, but it is not always the case. Many murderers live out their lives free and many decent people are punished for just being people.

 

[roger1440]

I have a simpler question. What is one saved from?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I have a simpler question. What is one saved from?

One is saved from the consequences as a result of transgressing the Law. Hence, salvation comes as a result of obedience of the Law. That's why Jesus said that to achieve salvation one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Yes, but it is not always the case. Many murderers live out their lives free and many decent people are punished for just being people.

Do you consider a decent person the person who committed a murder? Regarding the murderers that somehow live their lives free, somehow, they pay or will pay for their crimes as they get caught.

 

[savagewind]

Do you consider a decent person the person who committed a murder?

No. I wonder how you can say so.

Regarding the murderers that somehow live their lives free, somehow, they pay or will pay for their crimes as they get caught.

"As they got caught". What I said was sometimes a man never gets caught.

 

[savagewind]

I have a simpler question. What is one saved from?

I think it means save TO, not from. Saved to grace. Saved to righteousness. Saved for freedom.

It is like being delivered like a baby is delivered or even like a package is delivered.

 

[Ben Avraham]

No. I wonder how you can say so.

"As they got caught". What I said was sometimes a man never gets caught.

Trust the Lord that somehow the criminal will be punished for his crime. This very often happens.

 

[Coder]

When God banished Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23) It means that the only thing forever about man is death.

Hi Ben, What is your belief about afterlife?

 

[e.r.m.]

Many Christians present Jesus as the "only" way to get into heaven. That everybody, without Jesus, is lost in their sin. That nothing they can do on their own is good enough. And, without accepting Jesus, God will send them to hell.

So the question for Christians is: Prior to Jesus, was anybody "saved" under the Law? For Jews, was getting "saved", as believed by Christians, a concept that was ever part of Judaism?

Galatians 3:23-25 Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. [24] So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. [25] Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.



I believe prior to Jesus yes. Obviously Moses and Elijah made it.

 

[Kemosloby]

I believe the general idea is that nobody can stay under the law. Everybody breaks the law, therefore the law can't save anyone. Only forgiveness for breaking the law can save.

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe the general idea is that nobody can stay under the law. Everybody breaks the law, therefore the law can't save anyone. Only forgiveness for breaking the law can save.

Agreed.