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Is Sanders Hypocritical about Super PACs and the Citizens United Decision?

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There seems to be no more central tenet of Bernie Sanders’ campaign than his relentless opposition to the Supreme Court holding in Citizens United and the destruction of democracy that it has supposedly wrought. He has even formulated a litmus test for Supreme Court nominees on this basis, in the process indicating a gross misunderstanding of how the Court operates:

“Any Supreme Court nominee of mine will make overturning Citizens United one of their first decisions.”
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/20...erss-misinformed-supreme-court-tweet-matters/

Sanders seems to think that the Supreme Court is like a legislative body that issues decisions on matters out of the blue--or else, he is only trying to appeal to voters whose animus toward Citizens United outweighs their knowledge of the workings of our appellate court system.

In Citizens United, the Court struck down on First Amendment grounds a federal law that prohibited corporations and unions from making independent expenditures from their general treasury funds for speech defined as “electioneering communication”. http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-205.pdf As a direct result of this decision, the super PAC for National Nurses United has, as of last month, been able to spend about a million dollars on “electioneering communications,” e.g., on TV and print ads, in support of Sanders, more than any super PAC has spent on either of the other Democratic candidates: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/u...ciary-of-outside-spending-like-it-or-not.html

Sanders has attempted to defend these expenditures by asserting that he doesn’t “have a super PAC,” and makes no effort to raise money for a super PAC. I don’t know why he considers that an important distinction--as far as I know, no candidate held or holds fundraisers for Citizens United, whose “electioneering communications” he resolutely opposes. Sanders has in no way disavowed the “electioneering communications” by National Nurses United on his behalf; he has not asked this group to refrain from their organizational activities or spending on his campaign. Rather, he has publicly thanked this group by name in his campaign speeches, referring to the organization as “one of the sponsors” of his campaign.

Sanders has repeatedly complained that “super PACs have more influence on their campaigns than the candidates themselves,” and that spending by super PACs “undermines” the “foundations of American democracy”. http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/28/politics/bernie-sanders-chicago-koch-brothers-scotus/ So is that what’s happening in the case of Sanders and the super PACs that buy ads on his behalf? Or are Sanders and the super PACs that “sponsor” his campaign special in some way?
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
And that's the point. By law, a candidate cannot even have any contract with superPACs.

If he did it would be all over the place and Hillary would be letting everyone know. It's different if the Super Pac is doing something on your behalf and he doesn't have a contract with them. He himself doesn't have one.

It's like the DSCC thing Hillary is trying to do as well. The money from that went to other Vermont Democrats and a lot of times when he's done speaking engagements he's donated that money to charity.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Do you think Sanders has any control over the nurses?
Denouncing the electioneering communications of NNU, rather than thanking the organization for “sponsoring” his campaign, would probably bring an abrupt end to this super PAC’s expenditures on his behalf. What Sanders says and does in regard to this group undoubtedly influences on their electioneering communications.

Short of a constitutional amendment that will never happen, candidates denouncing the expenditures and activities of super PACs is the only way to curtail the independent electioneering communications that, according to Sanders, is destroying American democracy.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's different if the Super Pac is doing something on your behalf and he doesn't have a contract with them. He himself doesn't have one.[
Sanders has vehemently denounced the electioneering communications of Citizens United, which had no contract with any candidate.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not really surprised considering the issue of Citizen's United is a big deal to people.
I guess that's what makes Sanders' hypocrisy about the super PAC that is "one of the sponsors" of his campaign even worse.

Why, in your opinion, does he embrace the super PAC(s) that "sponsor" his campaign rather than disavowing and shunning them?

If he gets the nomination, do you expect his opponent and the few fence-sitters who will determine the outcome of the election will overlook his hypocrisy on this matter as readily as you do?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Are you in favor of the Citizens United ruling?
What does it matter whether I or anyone else approves of the holding in Citizens United? That has no bearing on and does not justify Sanders’ hypocrisy where he claims in one breath that spending by super PACs is ruining American democracy, and in the next breath thanks the super PAC that he has designated as “one of the sponsors” of his campaign. Does it?
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
I guess that's what makes Sanders' hypocrisy about the super PAC that is "one of the sponsors" of his campaign even worse.

Why, in your opinion, does he embrace the super PAC(s) that "sponsor" his campaign rather than disavowing and shunning them?

If he gets the nomination, do you expect his opponent and the few fence-sitters who will determine the outcome of the election will overlook his hypocrisy on this matter as readily as you do?

Because they're a union not a super pac. They're the National Nurses United union and are a group of progressive nurses who advocate for patients and nurses.

If you don't understand the difference between a super pac and a union here you go-

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/12/why_unions_are_not_super_pacs/

So, really there is no hypocrisy there. Sanders doesn't disavow and shun them because they're not a super pac in the first place.

For future reference here is what a Super pac is-

http://uspolitics.about.com/od/firstamendment/a/What-Is-A-Super-Pac.htm

As far as your question people generally understand what a union is and that it's not a super pac. If they don't they can use google.

And that's the point. By law, a candidate cannot even have any contract with superPACs.

They're not even a super pac in the first place. The organization the op is railing about is the National Nurses United. They're a union. Unions aren't super pacs. I provided a link within the same post explaining why they're not .
 
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Underhill

Well-Known Member
And that's the point. By law, a candidate cannot even have any contract with superPACs.


But that is nonsensical. I mean all the campaign has to do is let their desires be known in a group meeting with some volunteers, and the PAC can be informed what they want. It is the kind of rule that is easy to break and virtually impossible to prosecute.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But that is nonsensical. I mean all the campaign has to do is let their desires be known in a group meeting with some volunteers, and the PAC can be informed what they want. It is the kind of rule that is easy to break and virtually impossible to prosecute.
I don't disagree with you on that as I was just mentioning how the law reads.

Frankly, I think the entire lobbying system is nothing less than a form of bribery. In my political science class some 15 or so years ago, I brought in former senator Carl Levin (Michigan), and he at the time was working with John McCain on lobbying reform that went nowhere because of all the vested interests that were involved. Now, with Citizens United, it is nothing less than bribery on steroids.

BTW, and to show how much Justice Alito "knew" about the effects of CU, remember he was the one who mouthed "Not true" during Obama's State of the Union Speech right after it was passed whereas Obama said the the much of the money would be untraceable. The five justices should have had their heads examined, as three previous SCOTUS decisions went against linking lobbying money with free speech.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Sanders has stated he doesn't want any mega-huge donations or Super PACs. But, one of his larger donors pretty much said "watch me" and used the campaign laws to do it anyways. Bernie has no control over what individual or groups do in terms of making their own advertisements for him.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Because they're a union not a super pac.
Here is FEC filing for National Nurses United for Patient Protection, which is the independent expenditure-only (Type O) lobbyist Political Action Committee (Designation B) for the union National Nurses United: http://www.fec.gov/fecviewer/CandidateCommitteeDetail.do?candidateCommitteeId=C00490375&tabIndex=3

This super PAC raised more than $2 million in 2015 (obviously not from union dues), and disbursed about half of that amount, mostly on advertising and other types of support for Sanders.

Such fundraising and independent expenditures on political campaigns by unions and corporations is legal as a direct result of the holding in Citizens United, which Sanders relentlessly complains about, wants to "overturn," and says that any Court nominee of his will somehow make overturning it "one of their first decisions".

Overlooking the idiocy of that promise, what's not hypocritical about his thanking this super PAC and referring to it as "one of the sponsors" of his campaign? This is precisely the sort of "system" that he claims "undermines" the "foundation of American democracy".
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
Here is FEC filing for National Nurses United for Patient Protection, which is the independent expenditure-only (Type O) lobbyist Political Action Committee (Designation B) for the union National Nurses United: http://www.fec.gov/fecviewer/CandidateCommitteeDetail.do?candidateCommitteeId=C00490375&tabIndex=3

This super PAC raised more than $2 million in 2015 (obviously not from union dues), and disbursed about half of that amount, mostly on advertising and other types of support for Sanders.

Such fundraising and independent expenditures on political campaigns by unions and corporations is legal as a direct result of the holding in Citizens United, which Sanders relentlessly complains about, wants to "overturn," and says that any Court nominee of his will somehow make overturning it "one of their first decisions".

Overlooking the idiocy of that promise, what's not hypocritical about his thanking this super PAC and referring to it as "one of the sponsors" of his campaign? This is precisely the sort of "system" that he claims "undermines" the "foundation of American democracy".

They're a union. Not a pac. I posted links before explaining the difference.

Link- http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/pages/19

What do you have against nurses doing activism?

<
“What I have said over and over again is that I have not and will not raise a nickel for a super PAC,” Mr. Sanders said in the interview on Monday. “I am the only Democratic candidate who does not have a super PAC. I will not have a super PAC. They are nurses, and they are fighting for the health care of their people. They are doing what they think is appropriate. I do not have a super PAC.”

The National Nurses United group is funded by union dues, not by donor contributions. But Mr. Sanders’s comments on the topic of campaign finance have often been posed in absolute terms about where he draws the line.>

<
The nurses super PAC is funded by union members and does not coordinate with Sanders, nor does Sanders raise money for the group. The groups has also been active in past, spending $2.4 million in 2014 and $500,000 in 2012.

"Our organization exists to protect nurses and patients. No candidate has better amplified the critical issues nurses have voiced for many years than Bernie Sanders," Deborah Burger, co-president of National Nurses United, told CNN in a statement. "We are proud to support Bernie Sanders and will continue to do so." >



Source- http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/18/politics/bernie-sanders-super-pac-nurses-union/index.html

So, again, Sanders has nothing to do with them and what they decide to do. See also the previous law again about this issue. They're a group and made their own decision as a group to support his campaign through time and money. And the group isn't a super pac like you're trying to claim. They're a union. Under the new Citizen United laws, the FEC, points out they would be a super pac but the group has been around since 2009 and if the CU wasn't around they wouldn't be considered a super pac.
 
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Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Frankly, I think the entire lobbying system is nothing less than a form of bribery. In my political science class some 15 or so years ago, I brought in former senator Carl Levin (Michigan), and he at the time was working with John McCain on lobbying reform that went nowhere because of all the vested interests that were involved. Now, with Citizens United, it is nothing less than bribery on steroids.
Why shouldn't Ben Franklin's company have been allowed to print pamphlets and posters in favor of the representatives he wanted to be elected?

What do you see as the harmful effect of the super PAC that has spent a million dollars advertising for Sanders?

As discussed in Citizens United, one of the primary problems with the BCRA was the definition and exclusion of "media" corporations and unions, so as not to infringe the First Amendment. ReligiousForums.com might be considered a "media" corporation. Anyone here who opposes the decision striking down that law can abide by the provisions of the law anyway, by voluntarily silencing one's electioneering communications on these boards.

BTW, and to show how much Justice Alito "knew" about the effects of CU, remember he was the one who mouthed "Not true" during Obama's State of the Union Speech right after it was passed whereas Obama said the the much of the money would be untraceable.
Citizens United did not strike down any disclosure laws.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Sanders has stated he doesn't want any mega-huge donations or Super PACs. But, one of his larger donors pretty much said "watch me" and used the campaign laws to do it anyways. Bernie has no control over what individual or groups do in terms of making their own advertisements for him.
All he has to do is denounce their spending on his campaign. Instead he thanks them by name and refers to them as "one of the sponsors" of his campaign.

As noted above, short of a constitutional amendment that will never happen, the only way to cure the problem that Sanders claims "undermines" the "foundation of American democracy" is for politicians is to denounce those corporate and union super PACs.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They're a union. Not a pac.
According to the FEC, National Nurses United for Patient Protection is a super PAC.

And the fact that National Nurses United is a union that funds this super PAC from its general treasury fund, by which it purchases ads for Sanders campaign, is made possible by the holding of Citizens United.
 

LittlePinky82

Well-Known Member
According to the FEC, National Nurses United for Patient Protection is a super PAC.

And the fact that National Nurses United is a union that funds this super PAC from its general treasury fund, by which it purchases ads for Sanders campaign, is made possible by the holding of Citizens United.

You missed my last edit-


So, again, Sanders has nothing to do with them and what they decide to do. See also the previous law again about this issue. They're a group and made their own decision as a group to support his campaign through time and money. And the group isn't a super pac like you're trying to claim. They're a union. Under the new Citizen United laws, the FEC, points out they would be a super pac but the group has been around since 2009 and if the CU wasn't around they wouldn't be considered a super pac. As he pointed out they made the decision to support him.

So I ask you: what do you have against a group of working nurses who do activism and unionize supporting a candidate of their choice?
 
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