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Is Satan capable of good?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, Pascal's wager is a like a false dilemma. It doesn't account for the the case where a divine being exists that doesn't conform to Pascal's expectations.

It does account for it. In the case of that, if there a divine being that does not punish like @Bird123 type God, then if you become certain of that by whatever proofs, then you can end the search. But he argues you shouldn't deceive yourself about such a being either. Neither type God should you deceive yourself about he argues.

Some of his toolkits involves praying to God even when not knowing if he exists or what type of God he is.

But again, people get confused, because he picks Christianity scenario to talk about his wager. But it doesn't have to be that. His wager starts off with even no God existing at all.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I always took the wager at face value. If this is true then my religion could be of some use or help, for me. It encourages such things.
Yeah, he also argues for example that Islam encourages seeking truth, and so if Muslims are true to that, they would find Christianity. His writing is confusing, he should not have just put Christianity in but created many scenarios. Multi-religioned it, and gave different outcomes. Then everyone would've seen what he meant clearly.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
It does account for it.
No, Pascal's wager requires that: "If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible". The existence of a comprehensible deity is implied by the Bible. Proofs are irrelevant for incomprehensible beings, for those it just reduces to a question of faith.
 

Tinkerpeach

Active Member
Quetzalcoatl could be the one true God and his way the only way to avoid an afterlife of suffering.

I don't lose sleep over such odds. How about yourself?
He’s not very good at marketing his brand since I’ve never heard of him.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
"In the not-distant future, new telescopes will reveal to the wondering gaze of Urantian astronomers no less than 375 million new galaxies in the remote stretches of outer space. At the same time these more powerful telescopes will disclose that many island universes formerly believed to be in outer space are really a part of the galactic system of Orvonton [the Milky Way Galaxy]. . . . [T]he periphery . . . is gradually expanding; new nebulae are constantly being stabilized and organized; and some of the nebulae which Urantian astronomers regard as extragalactic are actually on the fringe of Orvonton and are traveling along with us.(1)"


So none of this makes sense. This is from 1955.
In 1923, following the Great Debate, it became clear that many "nebulae" were in fact galaxies far from the Milky Way.
It was also known before 1955 that some nebulae were in our galaxy.
The Andromeda galaxy was confirmed before 1955, it was mapped in 1950.
Nebula are not on the fringe of the galaxy.

A person wrote this, they had bits and pieces of information about cosmology, enough to fool a layman who isn't a scientist.
Now he didn't say anything about super clusters, super-super clusters, the galactic web, big bang. He didn't explain the big bang or tell us about any cosmology objects we didn't yet know. Nor the age of the universe 13 billion years, or the current observational size 94 billion light years.

This is exactly like all revelations and modern channeling, Bashar, Seth, Abraham....
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It surprises me to read this from you. You seem to consider only modern religion fictional woo. What's the difference between it and what you call "scripture," which is also fictional woo to most skeptics and critical thinkers, just older? It's all "made up fiction" to the skeptic.
This new stuff is just a hoax. Christianity is a mythology with bits of history, real people, events, syncretic myths, reinventing of literary stories, lots of hidden meaning and puzzles to figure out what is Jewish lore and what is taken from Greek and Persian lore.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The idea that most people won't accept is the existence of an adversarial relationship between YHWH as Israel.

But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, [and] he fought against them.
Isaiah 63:10
Isaiah and Daniel is where the Persian influence was starting to be seen. I don't know if 63:10 is considered a Persian influence?



Old Testament Interpretation


Professor John J. Collins




12:10 a possible inspiration for Ezekiel treatment of dead (valley of bones) was Persian myth


14:20 resurrection of dead in Ezekiel, incidentally resurrection of the dead is also attested in Zoroastrianism, the Persians had it before the Israelites. There was no precent for bodily resurrection in Israel before this time. No tradition of bodies getting up from the grave. The idea of borrowing can be suggested.


In Ezekiel this is metaphorical.


The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.


17:30 resurrection of individual and judgment in Daniel, 164 BC. Prior to this the afterlife was Sheol, now heaven/hell is introduced. Persian period. Resurrection and hell existed in the Persian religion.
Resurrection of spirit. Some people are raised up to heaven, some to hell. New to the OT.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
That's really only a statement of faith in the traditions of the Church Fathers.
No, it's a statement of what I mean when I say "scripture" in the context of that discussion. I don't mean an update about Satan from 1955.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The only book that clearly refers to bodily resurrection is Daniel.
There's a reasonable match in Hosea. Risen of the third day relates to the gospel account of the resurrection. Hosea 6:6 is also referenced from the gospels.

Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:1-2
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
There's a reasonable match in Hosea. Risen of the third day relates to the gospel account of the resurrection. Hosea 6:6 is also referenced from the gospels.

Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:1-2
Jesus quoted that? Interesting, more proof the gospel authors were building a fictional story out of the OT, in part.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
He’s not very good at marketing his brand since I’ve never heard of him.
That's entirely irrelevant to the premise in the extended wager. And now you have heard of Quetzalcoatl..... tremble or submit, maybe both.

It's possible, then, that we have never heard of the one true god and the true way and never will, all of us doomed because that god wills it.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
"In the not-distant future, new telescopes will reveal to the wondering gaze of Urantian astronomers no less than 375 million new galaxies in the remote stretches of outer space. At the same time these more powerful telescopes will disclose that many island universes formerly believed to be in outer space are really a part of the galactic system of Orvonton [the Milky Way Galaxy]. . . . [T]he periphery . . . is gradually expanding; new nebulae are constantly being stabilized and organized; and some of the nebulae which Urantian astronomers regard as extragalactic are actually on the fringe of Orvonton and are traveling along with us.(1)"


So none of this makes sense. This is from 1955.
In 1923, following the Great Debate, it became clear that many "nebulae" were in fact galaxies far from the Milky Way.
It was also known before 1955 that some nebulae were in our galaxy.
The Andromeda galaxy was confirmed before 1955, it was mapped in 1950.
Nebula are not on the fringe of the galaxy.

A person wrote this, they had bits and pieces of information about cosmology, enough to fool a layman who isn't a scientist.
Now he didn't say anything about super clusters, super-super clusters, the galactic web, big bang. He didn't explain the big bang or tell us about any cosmology objects we didn't yet know. Nor the age of the universe 13 billion years, or the current observational size 94 billion light years.

This is exactly like all revelations and modern channeling, Bashar, Seth, Abraham
The UB contains extensive coverage of the incomprehensible size and age of the universe, far, far older that 13 Billion years. The central universe is the geographic location of the eternal isle of paradise. The UB reveals that the universe actually expands and contracts on 1 billion year cycles. The UB does NOT support big bang theory.

The Andronover Nebula​

57:1.1 (651.3) Urantia is of origin in your sun, and your sun is one of the multifarious offspring of the Andronover nebula, which was onetime organized as a component part of the physical power and material matter of the local universe of Nebadon. And this great nebula itself took origin in the universal force-charge of space in the superuniverse of Orvonton, long, long ago.

57:1.2 (651.4) At the time of the beginning of this recital, the Primary Master Force Organizers of Paradise had long been in full control of the space-energies which were later organized as the Andronover nebula.

57:1.3 (651.5) 987,000,000,000 years ago associate force organizer and then acting inspector number 811,307 of the Orvonton series, traveling out from Uversa, reported to the Ancients of Days that space conditions were favorable for the initiation of materialization phenomena in a certain sector of the, then, easterly segment of Orvonton.

Paper 57 - The Origin of Urantia

2a9412a8ed23cf10c3881a0583ebda06.jpg
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
"In the not-distant future, new telescopes will reveal to the wondering gaze of Urantian astronomers no less than 375 million new galaxies in the remote stretches of outer space. At the same time these more powerful telescopes will disclose that many island universes formerly believed to be in outer space are really a part of the galactic system of Orvonton [the Milky Way Galaxy]. . . . [T]he periphery . . . is gradually expanding; new nebulae are constantly being stabilized and organized; and some of the nebulae which Urantian astronomers regard as extragalactic are actually on the fringe of Orvonton and are traveling along with us.(1)"


So none of this makes sense. This is from 1955.
In 1923, following the Great Debate, it became clear that many "nebulae" were in fact galaxies far from the Milky Way.
It was also known before 1955 that some nebulae were in our galaxy.
The Andromeda galaxy was confirmed before 1955, it was mapped in 1950.
Nebula are not on the fringe of the galaxy.

A person wrote this, they had bits and pieces of information about cosmology, enough to fool a layman who isn't a scientist.
Now he didn't say anything about super clusters, super-super clusters, the galactic web, big bang. He didn't explain the big bang or tell us about any cosmology objects we didn't yet know. Nor the age of the universe 13 billion years, or the current observational size 94 billion light years.

This is exactly like all revelations and modern channeling, Bashar, Seth, Abraham....

Computer Analysis of Dates in The Urantia Book

by Matt Neibaur, M.D.
Scientific Symposium I 1988




In 1572 a former professor of law from Bologna named Ugo Buoncompagni became Pope Gregory XIII; ten years later the Gregorian calendar was introduced. The Julian calendar, founded sixteen centuries earlier by Julius Caesar, was inaccurate and the need for reform was widely recognized. Its principal failure was the discrepancy between the mean length of its year, 365.25 days, and the tropical year, then averaging 365.24232 days. This is nearly eleven minutes and four seconds shorter than the Julian year, a small discrepancy which continued to accumulate until it was no longer a matter of minutes but days. By the time of the Gregorian reform, this error had grown to eleven days. Understandably, this was of concern to the Pope; if the calendar had continued unchanged, Easter would eventually be celebrated in the summer.

The attempts at reform set off a wide range of debates, both academic and religious. At one point excommunication was threatened by the Pope against anyone who refused to accept the new calendar. The details and controversies created by the reform are presented beautifully in an article in the May 1982 issue of The Scientific American by Gordon Moyer entitled, "The Gregorian Calendar."

Readers of The Urantia Book should find the calendar reform and methods of measuring time interesting. In part four of the book, The Life and Teachings of Jesus, there are numerous references to dates. Dates and weekdays are listed unequivocally. Is there any way to check on these dates? Was April 14, A.D. 2, really a Friday as stated? Would it make any difference if the dates and weekdays did not correlate? Would The Urantia Book be true if major discrepancies existed? Whether or not one accepts or rejects The Urantia Book is determined more by its spiritual impact rather than possible scientific correlations. Still, it would be nice to know if there existed independent verification of these dates and times.

Using information obtained from the book, Astronomical Formulae for Calculators by Jean Meeus, a program was written to calculate dates and weekdays. The program takes into account the Gregorian calendar reform. All dates are first converted to Julian Day numbers and the results are divided by seven to obtain weekdays from the remainder. A calendar is then generated using this information. Even by computer standards, it is a rather tedious process.

The results were reassuring. The odds of merely guessing the correct day would be one in seven for each day or the product of the separate probabilities for all of the dates listed. This calculates to one chance in 5,764,801 for correctly guessing the eight dates listed. (Now you know why bingo games are a great way of making money.) The following dates were sampled and showed correct dates with corresponding weekdays:

Date Weekday Correlation

April 14, AD 2 Friday Yes

June 24, AD 5 Wednesday Yes

January 9, AD 7 Sunday Yes

April 17, AD 9 Wednesday Yes

April 26, AD 22 Sunday Yes

March 3, AD 26 Sunday Yes

February 23, AD 26 Saturday Yes

June 18, AD 26 Tuesday Yes

There are more dates in The Urantia Book. Perhaps other readers would like to experiment with the program. Future projects could include construction of a calendar with corresponding events listed for specific dates during the life of Jesus. A chronological guide with specific maps could become an important adjunct in studying part four of the book. The calendars are already available that encompass the time periods from 8 B.C. to 30 A.D.

Of note:

7. THE TRIP TO BETHLEHEM​

122:7.1 In the month of March, 8 B.C. (the month Joseph and Mary were married), Caesar Augustus decreed that all inhabitants of the Roman Empire should be numbered, that a census should be made which could be used for effecting better taxation. The Jews had always been greatly prejudiced against any attempt to “number the people,” and this, in connection with the serious domestic difficulties of Herod, King of Judea, had conspired to cause the postponement of the taking of this census in the Jewish kingdom for one year. Throughout all the Roman Empire this census was registered in the year 8 B.C., except in the Palestinian kingdom of Herod, where it was taken in 7 B.C., one year later.

122:7.2 It was not necessary that Mary should go to Bethlehem for enrollment—Joseph was authorized to register for his family—but Mary, being an adventurous and aggressive person, insisted on accompanying him. She feared being left alone lest the child be born while Joseph was away, and again, Bethlehem being not far from the City of Judah, Mary foresaw a possible pleasurable visit with her kinswoman Elizabeth.

122:7.3 Joseph virtually forbade Mary to accompany him, but it was of no avail; when the food was packed for the trip of three or four days, she prepared double rations and made ready for the journey. But before they actually set forth, Joseph was reconciled to Mary’s going along, and they cheerfully departed from Nazareth at the break of day.

8. THE BIRTH OF JESUS​

122:8.1 All that night Mary was restless so that neither of them slept much. By the break of day the pangs of childbirth were well in evidence, and at noon, August 21, 7 B.C., with the help and kind ministrations of women fellow travelers, Mary was delivered of a male child. Jesus of Nazareth was born into the world, was wrapped in the clothes which Mary had brought along for such a possible contingency, and laid in a near-by manger."

IMOP
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Jesus quoted that?
But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:13

But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:7

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of Elohim more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:6

And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luke 24:46

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
Hosea 6:2

Matthew is consistent with the repudiation of blood sacrifice by the prophets, but Luke's Christ isn't consistent with with the "us" of Hosea, who are Ephraim and Judah.

Interesting, more proof the gospel authors were building a fictional story out of the OT, in part.
Motivation for a false narrative come from two possible sources - the conflict between Judean nationalists (eg Galilieans) and the accomodationists (eg Pharisees), and the related conflict between traditional Judean beliefs and those of Constantine's cult of Sol Invictus.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Personally, I don't believe there's a Satan, but neither do I claim there can't be one.:shrug:
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The UB contains extensive coverage of the incomprehensible size and age of the universe, far, far older that 13 Billion years. The central universe is the geographic location of the eternal isle of paradise. The UB reveals that the universe actually expands and contracts on 1 billion year cycles. The UB does NOT support big bang theory.

The Andronover Nebula​

57:1.1 (651.3) Urantia is of origin in your sun, and your sun is one of the multifarious offspring of the Andronover nebula, which was onetime organized as a component part of the physical power and material matter of the local universe of Nebadon. And this great nebula itself took origin in the universal force-charge of space in the superuniverse of Orvonton, long, long ago.

57:1.2 (651.4) At the time of the beginning of this recital, the Primary Master Force Organizers of Paradise had long been in full control of the space-energies which were later organized as the Andronover nebula.

57:1.3 (651.5) 987,000,000,000 years ago associate force organizer and then acting inspector number 811,307 of the Orvonton series, traveling out from Uversa, reported to the Ancients of Days that space conditions were favorable for the initiation of materialization phenomena in a certain sector of the, then, easterly segment of Orvonton.

Paper 57 - The Origin of Urantia

View attachment 82273

So that's all wrong. But there you go. It's 100% confirmed science fiction. Because they have the ability to be hyper-specific so you cannot say it isn't a translation issue. YET, not one word about actual cosmology that we didn't yet know and now do.
The evidence for the big bang is vast. I can't believe you are actually posting things that reference "Primary Master Force Organizers of Paradise " and are taking it serious. Yet there is not one scientific fact in there that we now know. Seriously all they would have needed to do is say, by the way, you haven't discovered it yet but protons and all those hadrons you are about to discover, are made of quarks. They could have explained the 4 types and charges. Also explained dark energy and dark matter.
It's totally sci-fi from an amateur.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member

Computer Analysis of Dates in The Urantia Book

by Matt Neibaur, M.D.
Scientific Symposium I 1988




April 14, AD 2 Friday Yes

June 24, AD 5 Wednesday Yes

January 9, AD 7 Sunday Yes

April 17, AD 9 Wednesday Yes

April 26, AD 22 Sunday Yes

March 3, AD 26 Sunday Yes

February 23, AD 26 Saturday Yes

June 18, AD 26 Tuesday Yes

There are more dates in The Urantia Book. Perhaps other readers would like to experiment with the program. Future projects could include construction of a calendar with corresponding events listed for specific dates during the life of Jesus. A chronological guide with specific maps could become an important adjunct in studying part four of the book. The calendars are already available that encompass the time periods from 8 B.C. to 30 A.D.

Of note:


IMOP
So? The author made up dates for a character in a mythology where none of this information is known. If they bothered to figure out what day it falls on so what?
Here is a ton of science they got wrong. Much of it was popular at the time, just like all hoaxes the author assumes the science is correct but later it's debunked showing the book is a work.

It's even more damning that they gave dates. Hyper-accurate showing no reason they couldn;t say the trillionth digit of pi or any of the many many cosmological and physics discoveries made since then. They could have unified gravity with QM.
Also it's clear some other work was used for ideas, all signs of a made up hoax.




Urantia: The Great Cult Mystery​

Eventually, Gardner comes to the science of the UB. If the UB really were an extraterrestrial revelation, it should accurately describe our universe. It fails this test miserably. The UB claims the universe is over one trillion years old; most scientists date it at about 15 billion years (186). The temperature it assigns to the sun’s surface is off by thousands of degrees (190); it falsely says that Mercury keeps the same face towards the sun (196). The UB teaches that humans have 48 chromosomes; it should be 46 (217). Atoms supposedly cannot possess more than 100 electrons; this “limit” was broken in 1955, as any periodic table will confirm (214).

Once or twice Gardner slips up. The UB claims our solar system was formed with 12 planets, and Gardner notes the improbability of “three undiscovered planets beyond the orbits of Neptune and Pluto” (189). He apparently missed its statement that the fifth planet between Mars and Jupiter “fragmentized” and became the asteroid belt (UB, 658). This leaves two undiscovered planets, not three. He also refers to gamete reproduction as mitosis, instead of meiosis (217).

Like a good storyteller, Gardner saves the best for last. A lengthy chapter reveals scads of plagiarisms in the UB, originally discovered by Urantian believer Matthew Block. In 1992, Block wrote a paper on “bibliographic” sources used in the UB. The paper reveals shameless plagiarism of earlier works, sometimes word-for-word but more frequently thought-for-thought. Gardner develops these discoveries in parallel-column comparisons and points out that Seventh-day Adventist founder Ellen White had a bad problem with plagiarism (he devotes a full chapter to this), as did Sadler occasionally (290).




As pointed out by skeptic Martin Gardner, the science in The Urantia Book reflects some views that prevailed at the time the book originated.[101] The claim by the authors that no unknown scientific discoveries could be imparted can function as a ruse to allow mistakes to be dismissed later.[102] The appeal to convenience that post-1955 scientific knowledge is not being presented is consistent with a book written by humans in the 1950s instead of celestial beings with superior knowledge.[101]

Examples of criticisms regarding the science in The Urantia Book include:

  • The described formation of the Solar System is consistent with the Chamberlin-Moulton planetesimal hypothesis,[103] which though popular in the early part of the 20th century, was discarded by the 1940s after major flaws were noted.[104] The currently accepted scientific explanation for the origin of the Solar System is based on the nebular hypothesis.[103]
  • According to the book's descriptions, the universe is hundreds of billions of years old and periodically expands and contracts — "respires" — at 2-billion-year intervals. Recent observations measure the true age of the universe to be 13.8 billion years.[105] The book does not support the Big Bang theory.[106]
  • A fundamental particle called an "ultimaton" is proposed, with an electron being composed of 100 ultimatons. The particle is not known to be described anywhere else and the concept is at odds with modern particle physics.[107]
  • The Andromeda Galaxy is claimed to be "almost one million" light years away, repeating a systematic mistake in the measurements of the distance to galaxies made in the 1920s.[108] The galaxy is now known to be 2.5 million light years away.
  • The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the Sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the Sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the Sun.[109]
  • Some species are said to have evolved suddenly from single mutations without transitional species.[110] The theory originated with Dutch botanist Hugo De Vries but was short-lived and is not now supported.[111]
  • The book erroneously says that a solar eclipse was predicted in 1808 by the Native American prophet Tenskwatawa. The eclipse actually was predicted in late April 1806 and occurred on June 16, 1806.[112] In 2009, the Urantia Foundation acknowledged the error and revised the book.[c]
  • Controversial statements about human races can be found in the book.[114] Gardner recounts that William S. Sadler also wrote eugenicist works that contain similar arguments to some ideas presented in The Urantia Book.[115]
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Motivation for a false narrative come from two possible sources - the conflict between Judean nationalists (eg Galilieans) and the accomodationists (eg Pharisees), and the related conflict between traditional Judean beliefs and those of Constantine's cult of Sol Invictus.
You are saying that is why Mark wrote his Gospel?
 
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