Is Science Compatible with Mysticism?

[godnotgod]

The Holographic Paradigm

2006 01 02
By Michael Talbot

In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science.

Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart.

Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations.

University of London physicist David Bohm, for example, believes Aspect's findings imply that objective reality does not exist, that despite its apparent solidity the universe is at heart a phantasm, a gigantic and splendidly detailed hologram.

The rest of this fascinating article is here:

The Amazing Holographic Universe

 

[Willamena]

Yes, I understood what you meant

Then I hope you also caught that my response to your question was rhetorical.

No, what do you call the state of thinking that what one sees is actually what is?

I call that seeing what is. There is no "what is" other than that seen/understood, at least none that makes sense. Seeing/understanding = making sense of the world.

 

[Willamena]

I think one of the reasons why I am rebelling against the Oneness idea, as it is popularly expressed, is that it points to yet another, more subliminal form of a "Creator". It's just another way of saying there is only God.

Well, from a particular perspective, there is.

 

[godnotgod]

[/COLOR]
Then I hope you also caught that my response to your question was rhetorical.


I call that seeing what is. There is no "what is" other than that seen/understood, at least none that makes sense. Seeing/understanding = making sense of the world.

So there is no such thing as delusion, then? If I believe as true that killing you because I think you are the Devil, that is 'seeing what is'?

Come now, Willamena. There is the boogeyman, then there is reality. There is the rope seen as a snake. If you see a snake, there really is a snake?

It is for these reasons that I say Reason is faulty. The rational mind creates concepts about the world because it cannot understand the true nature of the world. So in order to 'make sense' of a world it does not truly understand, it creates conceptual models to fit it's modus operandi, which is Reason, Logic, Analysis. We become so used to this type of thinking, we end up firmly believing that the concept about Reality really is Reality, when it clearly is seen that it is not once we awaken from our delusion. To the deluded mind, what it thinks is reality for that person.

 

[YmirGF]

Well, from a particular perspective, there is.

True, but from a particular perspective Latvian Lesbians midgets have invaded Lithuania.

 

[Willamena]

True, but from a particular perspective Latvian Lesbians midgets have invaded Lithuania.

M'thinks your "True..." is sarcastic.

 

[YmirGF]

It is for these reasons that I say Reason is faulty. The rational mind creates concepts about the world because it cannot understand the true nature of the world. So in order to 'make sense' of a world it does not truly understand, it creates conceptual models to fit it's modus operandi, which is Reason, Logic, Analysis. We become so used to this type of thinking, we end up firmly believing that the concept about Reality really is Reality, when it clearly is seen that it is not once we awaken from our delusion. To the deluded mind, what it thinks is reality for that person.

Otoh, godnotgod, the awakening you describe could simply be another delusion and the sensation of Oneness, little more than the logical progression of linear understanding, superimposed onto a non-linear reality. A foible of our type of consciousness, as it were.

 

[YmirGF]

M'thinks your "True..." is sarcastic.

Not at all, Patty. The true part was sincere, as it is patently obvious. What followed was simply outlining a ridiculous scenario equal, in my view, to the petty images of god human animals have had the temerity to pretend as being reality.

 

[godnotgod]

Otoh, godnotgod, the awakening you describe could simply be another delusion and the sensation of Oneness, little more than the logical progression of linear thought superimposed onto a non-linear reality. A foible of our type of consciousness, as it were.

Then it is still the state of 'not what is', as compared to Reality. Are you saying that there is no true knowing of Reality? The true knowing of Reality is a state in which there is no doubt as to it being true.

I am speaking of a state of consciousness in which any such 'foibles' have been completely overcome.

"In a single blow, I have crushed the cave of phantoms"

 

[YmirGF]

Then it is still the state of 'not what is', as compared to Reality. Are you saying that there is no true knowing of Reality? The true knowing of Reality is a state in which there is no doubt as to it being true.

Truth is relative to understanding, godnotgod. I used to think I knew what Reality was. I used to see things in very clear terms. I've since tossed aside my neat and tidy certainty and now bask in my exultant unknowning caught in the embrace of who knows what. It's sort of like being an explorer. I don't know what is over the next metaphorical hill or in the next allegorical valley, but based on where I have been so far it seems worth exploring further. So, in effect, I don't know what reality truly is, but more importantly, I hope I never find out. That would spoil the adventure.

I am speaking of a state of consciousness in which any such 'foibles' have been completely overcome.

I know you are. In my view, personality is like a foible of consciousness. In that respect, It is not something that is possible to overcome, per se. In some respect, illusions are a necessary feature personality (utilizes) to maintain growth. How to describe what I mean? *runs ponder.bat*

My understanding is predicated on the amusing notion that there is no final state in the evolution of consciousness. Though I hate to use the term "state" or "level" of consciousness, for the sake of discussion, each new "state/level" of consciousness fully contains the "previous" state of consciousness, encapsulates it perhaps is a better word. This encapsulation, if you will, is the bedrock of understanding, or known reality, the "new" state is a largely illusory apprehension of unknown reality. Once the "new" state is, for lack of a better term, assimilated, the illusions come down and once again one moves into the "next" state... ad infinitum.

Ok, ok, ok... stop laughing, LOL.

The thing is, in my experience, at least, Oneness gave way to a Multidimensional 'perspective' that simply does not lend itself to verbal translation. So......... to answer your original question. We can KNOW reality, but REALITY is like a receding tide that we are always moving towards. The ground we cover is our experienced reality. I hope that makes some sense. No doubt Atanu will have problems with this description, LOL.

 

[Windwalker]

My understanding is predicated on the amusing notion that there is no final state in the evolution of consciousness. Though I hate to use the term "state" or "level" of consciousness, for the sake of discussion, each new "state/level" of consciousness fully contains the "previous" state of consciousness, encapsulates it perhaps is a better word. This encapsulation, if you will, is the bedrock of understanding, or known reality, the "new" state is a largely illusory apprehension of unknown reality. Once the "new" state is, for lack of a better term, assimilated, the illusions come down and once again one moves into the "next" state... ad infinitum.

Ok, ok, ok... stop laughing, LOL.

Actually, that's pretty spot on. But I would distinguish between a state which is temporary, and a stage, which is permanent. The mind of a child is assumed into the mind of an adult, but we still have that child within us. It's just not the dominant stage anymore.

The thing is, in my experience, at least, Oneness gave way to a Multidimensional 'perspective' that simply does not lend itself to verbal translation.

Well, it sounds to me like "Oneness" as you describe it is actually monism. Monism is a perspective, Oneness is an experience. Read this: Not Duality is Not Non Duality | School of Yogic Buddhism

 

[methylatedghosts]

The thing is, in my experience, at least, Oneness gave way to a Multidimensional 'perspective' that simply does not lend itself to verbal translation. So......... to answer your original question. We can KNOW reality, but REALITY is like a receding tide that we are always moving towards. The ground we cover is our experienced reality. I hope that makes some sense. No doubt Atanu will have problems with this description, LOL.

The image that came to my mind while reading this was like following a horizon you never reach, but the surrounding landscape is eternally changing...

 

[Aum_425]

Totally compatible.

The questions are the same, the only difference lies in the method of answering.

Scientists look out, spiritualists look in, but there is no difference in the drive to look.

 

[Willamena]

So there is no such thing as delusion, then? If I believe as true that killing you because I think you are the Devil, that is 'seeing what is'?

Delusion is seen and understood.

Come now, Willamena. There is the boogeyman, then there is reality. There is the rope seen as a snake. If you see a snake, there really is a snake?

I don't deny that illusion exists. Obviously it is seen and understood.

It is for these reasons that I say Reason is faulty. The rational mind creates concepts about the world because it cannot understand the true nature of the world. So in order to 'make sense' of a world it does not truly understand, it creates conceptual models to fit it's modus operandi, which is Reason, Logic, Analysis. We become so used to this type of thinking, we end up firmely believing that the concept about Reality really is Reality, when it clearly is seen that it is not once we awaken from our delusion. To the deluded mind, what it thinks is reality for that person.

How is there any true nature of the world that is not encapsulated by a concept called "the true nature of the world"?

 

[Open_Minded]

Originally Posted by Willamena Well, from a particular perspective, there is.

True, but from a particular perspective Latvian Lesbians midgets have invaded Lithuania.

Firstly ....:biglaugh: :biglaugh:

Beyond that ... and I don't pretend to speak for Willamena ... but I do want to add my perspective as a theist...

In one conversation I had with an Atheist ... it was just the two of us ... and we were working through all the language barriers, imagery, labels, etc...

After sometime (over many conversations) we reached a point of commonalities. We discovered that we had more in common than we had differences. And much of it centered around this experience of "Oneness"...

Upon finding this place and looking back upon all that we had to wade through in the way of language, imagery, labeling, etc... he asked me why I still used the word "God". I only had one answer ...

"What other word can I use"?

Please don't read that as, "What other word can anyone use"?

My point to him was what other word could I use? Given my own culture, my own history, how much I've learned through my Christian roots, and how I experienced this "Oneness" there is no other word that even comes close to making sense (to me). I don't use the word lightly, nor do I use the word out of a sense of anything other than it "fits" me - it "fits" my experience and the way my experience has impacted me.

It is possible to do this ... and still have an acceptance that others can have Oneness experiences as well. It is possible to do this ... and still be aware that we are ALL part of the same interconnected reality ....

 

[Willamena]

Godnotgod, if you insist that ordinary thinking is delusion then you also insist on that your thought that ordinary thinking is delusion is delusion.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Totally compatible.

The questions are the same, the only difference lies in the method of answering.

Scientists look out, spiritualists look in, but there is no difference in the drive to look.

If there's one thing I've learned from the discussions in this particular thread, it's that there exists a very wide gulf between two things that are compatible in general and how compatible they can become in particular cases.

 

[Aum_425]

Well it depends, of course, but there are fields of science which are immensely mystical and spiritual while at the same time being intensely scientific. I mean, look at quantum physics!

lol

I have had a few perspective shifts after discussing this with my Physics professor. Not that all PHD's are the end all be all of their subject, but he explained how alot of scientists renounce mysticism in the beginning, finding science to be more reliable in explaining the Universe and its going ons, yet at a certain point in their scientific development, they return to mysticism.

 

[godnotgod]

Truth is relative to understanding, godnotgod. I used to think I knew what Reality was. I used to see things in very clear terms. I've since tossed aside my neat and tidy certainty and now bask in my exultant unknowning caught in the embrace of who knows what. It's sort of like being an explorer. I don't know what is over the next metaphorical hill or in the next allegorical valley, but based on where I have been so far it seems worth exploring further. So, in effect, I don't know what reality truly is, but more importantly, I hope I never find out. That would spoil the adventure.

I know you are. In my view, personality is like a foible of consciousness. In that respect, It is not something that is possible to overcome, per se. In some respect, illusions are a necessary feature personality to maintain growth. How to describe what I mean? *runs ponder.bat*

My understanding is predicated on the amusing notion that there is no final state in the evolution of consciousness. Though I hate to use the term "state" or "level" of consciousness, for the sake of discussion, each new "state/level" of consciousness fully contains the "previous" state of consciousness, encapsulates it perhaps is a better word. This encapsulation, if you will, is the bedrock of understanding, or known reality, the "new" state is a largely illusory apprehension of unknown reality. Once the "new" state is, for lack of a better term, assimilated, the illusions come down and once again one moves into the "next" state... ad infinitum.

Ok, ok, ok... stop laughing, LOL.

The thing is, in my experience, at least, Oneness gave way to a Multidimensional 'perspective' that simply does not lend itself to verbal translation. So......... to answer your original question. We can KNOW reality, but REALITY is like a receding tide that we are always moving towards. The ground we cover is our experienced reality. I hope that makes some sense. No doubt Atanu will have problems with this description, LOL.

You are talking about a consciousness that is evolving, is always on the move, forever changing. The consciousness I refer to is perfectly still. It is unborn, ungrown, deathless, changeless, absolute, formless. It cannot be encapsulated via form or concept. You talk about always moving toward a receding reality. That is not Reality, but it is Reality that is causing you to chase after it.

Perhaps the personality cannot be completely overcome, but it can be transcended, especially a personality immersed in Identification, or Waking Sleep.

There are two things: The notion of "I" and moving mind. As long as these two are working, there is the chasing after something. This is 'monkey mind', not because it is unintelligent, but because it jumps about like a monkey. Once these two have become quiet and still, what Zennists call 'Big Mind' then comes into play. Big Mind is obscured by the noise and neurotic activity of monkey mind. Anyone who is serious about playing the Master Game will have to address monkey mind before further progress can be made. It is part of the Enlightenment process, symbolized in Ten Bulls:

Ten Bulls

 

[methylatedghosts]

The image that came to my mind while reading this was like following a horizon you never reach, but the surrounding landscape is eternally changing...

Or, like it was said in Waking Life: "The idea is to remain in a state of constant departure while always arriving."