I will pay you in two princesses and a duke.
Keep the duke for Ymir. Give me princesses.
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I will pay you in two princesses and a duke.
Keep the duke for Ymir. Give me princesses.
To be specific ....They asked 33 physicists, philosophers and mathematicians 16 specific questions.
33 people turned in their completed questionnaires; of those, 27 stated their main academic aliation as physics, 5 as philosophy, and 3 as mathematics
That's quite a broad statement. For instance, just a quick look at a Wikipedia article on Interpretations of quantum mechanics gave 17 different interpretations. That's a lot of time and effort, by a lot of scientists, to interpret quantum mechanics for "no such discussion". To say nothing of all the references provided, I assume much of the references are written by scientists to defend their interpretations.There is no such discussion going on in the scientific community.
The authors of that paper (and survey) are as follows:In August 1997, Max Tegmark polled 48 participants of the conference Fundamental Problems in Quantum Theory," held at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, about their favorite interpretation of quantum mechanics. By Tegmark's own admission, the survey was highly informal and unscientic," as several people voted more than once, many abstained, etc." While the Copenhagen interpretation gathered the most votes, the many-worlds interpretation turned out
to come in second, prompting Tegmark to declare a rather striking shift in opinion compared to the old days when the Copenhagen interpretation reigned supreme."
Today, debates about the foundations of quantum mechanics show no sign of abating. Indeed, they have only become more lively in the years since Tegmark's poll. Thus, we felt the time had come to take a new snapshot. ....
The Copenhagen interpretation (shut up and do the math) may be what happens in the majority of the scientific community, I will grant you that (hands down) . From your perspective it may be "just a bunch of scientists". From my perspective - it is THOSE bunch of scientists that I am watching. And do you know why? Because they're willing to peek behind the curtain...The difference between whether or not all scientists are discussing this or just a bunch of scientists may seem trivial to you, and therefore it may seem like I'm just nitpicking.
Trust me Legion, I do not view Scientists as "all the same". Not by a long-shot. I am quite well aware that the physicists debating these things (peeking behind the curtains) are in a minority. Trouble with dismissing them is that at other times in history scientists who turned out to "have it right" were in the minority as well.It is like viewing religious people as basically all the same (which is something some people do, particularly some atheists, and I find that problematic as well). And I don't want to reinforce this view by answering a question about a discussion in the scientific community that doesn't actually exist any more than the discussion I mentioned exists in the religious community.
Thank you. I honestly mean that. All throughout this thread, I've seen others state their position and always wondered where you were at. This helps.you asked me where I place myself on a spectrum within the scientific community, based on what 33 people said to 1 out of those 16 questions. That 42% and the other figures are all in response to this question: "Question 12: What is your favorite interpretation of quantum mechanics?"
My answer would be with 12% who said "other."
Reality is what is doing the searching.
I think it important to include thought as essential of the universe.You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing.
Alan Watts
"That which you are seeking is causing you to seek"
Cheri Huber
To be specific ....
That's quite a broad statement. For instance, just a quick look at a Wikipedia article on Interpretations of quantum mechanics gave 17 different interpretations.
I point out fundamental disagreements with QM, and you say "and yet...quantum mechanics works". I say that 33 opinions don't represent the scientific community, especially because you didn't even look at the questions, and I am told I'm making a broad statement because those 33 people don't represent the tens of thousands of scientists that make up the scientific community.And yet - much to the dismay of many - quantum mechanics works.Finally, within physics not only do we have vast disagreements about what quantum theory is or involves (and by extension any unified theory), we have theories like the various multiverse theories. Many or most of these probably can’t ever be verified empirically, and were constructed mathematically. All of quantum physics involves a sort of quasi-empiricism as any description of a quantum system irreducibly statistical. Every model of every quantum system is a mathematical description of a system which is never observed/measured.
I repeat: discussions in "the scientific community" are not equivalent with discussions within quantum physics.That's a lot of time and effort, by a lot of scientists, to interpret quantum mechanics for "no such discussion".
To say nothing of all the references provided, I assume much of the references are written by scientists to defend their interpretations.
The authors of that paper (and survey) are as follows:
- Maximilian Schlosshauer - Assistant Professor in the Department of Physics at the University of Portland, Oregon.
The various sources I've cited aren't saying that "what we see is reality" and trying to make quantum "fit that reality", but recognizing that the solution we've been using so far, to imagine that our "vanishing h" or decoherence can be used to derive classical physics from quantum reality not only has no theoretical basis (and never really did), but is no contradicted by experimental results from numerous studies:
"An example of the latter stance is the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics, which postulates a fundamental dualism between a microscopic “quantum” domain and a macroscopic “classical” realm.
Today, our view has changed drastically. On the one hand, quantum effects have been observed in the laboratory far beyond the microscopic domain. Researchers have created mesoscopic and macroscopic "Schrödinger kittens” such as superpositions of microampere currents flowing in opposite directions and interference patterns for massive molecules composed of dozens of carbon atoms"
from Schlosshauer's Decoherence and the Quantum-to-Classical Transition (The Frontiers Collection; Springer, 2007)
I should think they are all quite qualified (at least as qualified as you) to make an assessment of debates around interpretting quantum mechanics.
It isn't. At all. It was only in physics that this idea was ever around. The rest of the "scientific community" wouldn't understand what you were talking about because they don't deal with "physical systems" that are really vector spaces and operations in a Hilbert space. They get to measure things that are observable without Hermitian operators.The Copenhagen interpretation (shut up and do the math) may be what happens in the majority of the scientific community, I will grant you that (hands down) .
From my perspective, it is not "a bunch of scientists." It is part of an incredibly diverse number of researchers and professionals around the world.From your perspective it may be "just a bunch of scientists". From my perspective - it is THOSE bunch of scientists that I am watching.
And do you know why? Because they're willing to peek behind the curtain...
It takes time and effort and attention to mathematically develop an interpretation. And one would not undertake the effort unless one felt it held value. Especially in an environment where money dictates what is studied.
So... Legion ... I hope you don't mind that I take your view on the subject as the view of one scientist and search for myself.
Not all scientists. Just science in general. Otherwise, why ask me about a discussion in the scientific community that the scientific community is almost completely unaware of?Trust me Legion, I do not view Scientists as "all the same".
I think it important to include thought as essential of the universe.
I understand that these terms get very qualified when one is talking to mystics, so here are my terms:Do you mean thought, or consciousness?
what I have said and objected to from the beginning, a discussion within the physics community IS NOT a discussion with the scientific community. ..... I never said those who responded to the survey were not qualified. I never said that there isn't a debate that has raged on for almost a century about quantum interpretations. What I said was that the scientific community is largely unaware of this and it doesn't matter for them.
We agree here as well....The curtain they set-up in the first place. It was in physics, after quantum mechanics, that the "shut up and calculate" mantra and the suggestion that the measurement problem wasn't a problem at all EVER mattered or even meant anything.
Because - as I'VE stated/asked/observed at different points throughout this thread I am trying to get a handle on YOUR position. Go back ... read the thread, see how many times I've referenced a need to know your position. I figured (silly me) that if I asked you your position from the angle of interpretations of quantum physics (having the scientific analytical mind that you have) we could finally make some head-way on where you're at with the "nature of reality" for lack of a better phrase. Which brings me back to a question I asked in my last post.Not all scientists. Just science in general. Otherwise, why ask me about a discussion in the scientific community that the scientific community is almost completely unaware of?Trust me Legion, I do not view Scientists as "all the same".
Thank you. I honestly mean that. All throughout this thread, I've seen others state their position and always wondered where you were at. This helps.
If you put yourself with the 12% who said, "other", than may I ask specifically what your position is on the interpretation of quantum mechanics?
I understand that these terms get very qualified when one is talking to mystics, so here are my terms:
- thought is the present moment
- consciousness is the current awareness, where thought is focused
They can be synonymous.
That is certainly how I feel sometimes. What most posters cannot comprehend that I personally use RF to "flesh out" much of my thinking. Sitting in my chair, brimming with mirth, the ideas are all latent and RF helps me to bring them to the surface. Sometimes I'm as amazed by what I have written as much as dear Atanu, albeit for far different reasons, LOL.
Because - as I'VE stated/asked/observed at different points throughout this thread I am trying to get a handle on YOUR position. Go back ... read the thread, see how many times I've referenced a need to know your position.
Here I am not a scientist, but one who is missing the important work they do.Would you prefer that scientists not do experiments to see whether quantum mechanics is "at play" in living systems?
You want to get all bogged down in details, and you're missing the larger point. Discovering the depths at which quantum mechanics affects our every day lives is in its very beginning stages. Scientists are doing the hard experimental work of figuring out whether quantum effects can be found in living systems.
I have never operated under the illusion that the interpretation of quantum mechanics has been solved. In fact I quite celebrate the debate going on within the Scientific community right now.The research you just cited is part of an increasing realization that "Niels Bohr brainwashed a whole generation of physicists into believing that the problem (of the interpretation of quantum mechanics) had been solved fifty years ago. (Murray Gell-Mann in The Nature of the Physical Universe: the 1976 Nobel Conference ).
you will not find the answers you seek arguing over minutia in this thread. You will find the answers you seek within your self. I do not have the answers, no one else in this thread has the answers, they are within you. And the way you will find them is to take all the searching you have done thus far, whether through science or any other discipline, and let them be. Don't cling to them. Take the path of silence, what you have learned in other areas of your life has built you up to this point in your life.
I figured (silly me) that if I asked you your position from the angle of interpretations of quantum physics (having the scientific analytical mind that you have) we could finally make some head-way on where you're at with the "nature of reality" for lack of a better phrase. Which brings me back to a question I asked in my last post.
So I tried to explain the difference between being my point of view and my scientific point of view. You didn't respond to any of that, so I don't know how you interpreted it. Perhaps you were anxious to get to a common ground, and I understand such motivation. It's just that by doing so I think you missed some important points that would have helped you get a handle on my position.Legion - may I ask a simple question? From your scientific point of view do you think we inhabit an interconnected universe/reality?
My position is agnosticism.
In lay terms I'd say "I don't know." There are theories I think are very likely wrong and those I think more likely. That "objective reality" is created through consciousness is one I think is least likely. I think that certain interpretations of the Copenhagen interpretation are likely wrong.In an honest attempt to get to the core here, I'm going to focus on your position.
Agnosticism is a beginning, and it gives me a general (preconceived) idea of your world-view. So.... Where are you at with the "nature of reality" discussion?
When you said that you would have answered that survey as "other", in layman's terms what is "other" to you?
Does it need a name?When consciousness is not being focused, what is it then?
It could well be.(Isn't all awareness current?)
Focused consciousness is called 'spotlight attention'; it involves a specific object or area of attention; unfocused consciousness is called 'floodlight attention', and takes in the entire field of view, what some might call 'the big picture', with no particular object in mind.
Just Being.When consciousness is not being focused, what is it then?
Thank you Mr. Spinkles for outlining your position.Open_Minded,
Disclaimer: quantum physics is not my specialty. But for what it's worth, I personally favor the Copenhagen interpretation, which is considered "standard". I am non-committal about this though. What I feel more strongly about is that no interpretation of quantum mechanics requires "conscious" observers. This is a mistake usually made by those outside physics. When physicists talk about "observers" doing a measurement they use that word for convenience; really, any "classical" object physically interacting with a quantum object can be considered an "observer" doing a "measurement".
What you say can be looked at in a different way. For instance "interaction" can be seen as a conscious event in and of itself. If an atom A (on one side of the universe) is "aware" of the spin of atom B on the other side of the universe. It can be reasonably posited that some form of consciousness is at play - even if it is not a form of consciousness that you or I can comprehend. I don't know of any way to prove it - so (as I stated earlier) I see no need to debate it. I simply share that observation the way you have shared your own position.When physicists talk about "observers" doing a measurement they use that word for convenience; really, any "classical" object physically interacting with a quantum object can be considered an "observer" doing a "measurement"
Well - again - I don't feel the need for a prolonged debate. Unlike universal consciousness, non-local consciousness in humans can be tested. If humans experience non-local consciousness than our thoughts would be able to affect other humans (or that would be at least one aspect of non-local consciousness).But I also feel that consciousness doesn't need quantum mechanics in principle, either. ....
Again - it is not my intent to debate the details - I'll leave that for the scientific process. My points are as follows:On a bright spring day, Schlitz is leading Teena and J.D. Miller down a path to the laboratory at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, north of San Francisco. Schlitz is the president of the institute, which conducts research on consciousness and spirituality. The Millers have been married a decade and their affection is palpable making them perfect for the so-called Love Study.
Schlitz takes Teena into an isolated room, where no sound can come in or go out. Teena settles into a deep armchair as Schlitz attaches electrodes to her right hand.
"This is measuring blood flow in your thumb, and this is your skin conductance activity," the researcher explains. "So basically both of these are measures of your unconscious nervous system."
Schlitz locks Teena into the electromagnetically shielded chamber, then ushers J.D. into another isolated room with a closed-circuit television. She explains that the screen will go on and off. And at random intervals, Teena's image will appear on the screen for 10 seconds.
"And so during the times when you see her," she instructs, "it's your opportunity to think about sending loving, compassionate intention."
As the session begins, Dean Radin, a senior scientist here, watches as a computer shows changes in J.D.'s blood pressure and perspiration. When J.D. sees the image of his wife, the steady lines suddenly jump and become ragged. The question is: Will Teena's nervous system follow suit?
"Notice how here ... see, there's a change in the blood volume," says Radin, pointing to a screen charting Teena's measurements. "A sudden change like that is sometimes associated with an orienting response. If you suddenly hear somebody whispering in your ear, and there's nobody around, you have this sense of what? What was that? That's more or less what we're seeing in the physiology."
An hour later, Radin displays Teena's graph, which shows a flat line during the times her husband was not staring at her image, but when her husband began to stare at her, she stopped relaxing and became "aroused" within about two seconds.
After running 36 couples through this test, the researchers found that when one person focused his thoughts on his partner, the partner's blood flow and perspiration dramatically changed within two seconds. The odds of this happening by chance were 1 in 11,000. Three dozen double blind, randomized studies by such institutions as the University of Washington and the University of Edinburgh have reported similar results.
So you've joined Ymir in the boat of smug uncertainity? I can appreciate that.In lay terms I'd say "I don't know."
Neither do I, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a multiverse. I just don't know that it can be proven, and so all time, money and effort put into it seems hardly worth the effort.I don't find multiverse theories very plausible (for the same and/or similar reasons I don't find many-minds theories very plausible).
I don't know that universal consciousness can be tested.... anymore than multiverse can be tested. On a personal/subjective level I do believe there is universal consciousness. I think we humans are one expression of that consciousness. But none of it can be proven - so I feel no need to debate the subject.I don't rule out that QM plays a non-trivial role in consciousness, but I don't think there is sufficient reason to believe that it does.