Is the Bible the literal word of God?

[Scuba Pete]

It's funny, but after all is said and done, the scriptures never claim to be perfect, nor do they purport to be the word of God. That seems to be a rather modern concept.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Many people believe in the Bible but some believe it by the word.So why is the Bible still being altered today?

Compare much older sumerian, babylonian, akkadian records to the bible. To me, and I can only speak for me, it appears that a lot of the biblical stories came from writings thousans of years before it.

 

[Scott1]

Compare much older sumerian, babylonian, akkadian records to the bible. To me, and I can only speak for me, it appears that a lot of the biblical stories came from writings thousans of years before it.

In many ways, throughout history down to the present day, men have given expression to their quest for God in their religious beliefs and behavior: in their prayers, sacrifices, rituals, meditations, and so forth. These forms of religious expression, despite the ambiguities they often bring with them, are so universal that one may well call man a religious being.... and I believe that the possible similarity of biblical stories to previous writings shows that God communicated with man for a long time before the bible.

 

[sojourner]

Compare much older sumerian, babylonian, akkadian records to the bible. To me, and I can only speak for me, it appears that a lot of the biblical stories came from writings thousans of years before it.

You're on the right track. I'm not sure that they came from "writings thousands of years before that" -- but they were extrapolated from earlier stories -- probably oral in nature.

 

[blackout]

Compare much older sumerian, babylonian, akkadian records to the bible. To me, and I can only speak for me, it appears that a lot of the biblical stories came from writings thousans of years before it.

I'm in the middle of a wonderful three volume Joseph Campbell video Series,
and what you say is ABSOLUTELY true. It's truly fascinating.
Almost every major biblical story is almost IDENTICAL to earlier mythologies,
with only names, places and minor details changed.

As well, the allegorical esoteric mysteries illuminated in these mythologies
are far more interesting, and of FAR MORE SPIRITUAL WORTH than any "literal" type "reading" will EVER give you.

(This is also true regarding rites of worship BTW.
Even the catholic eucharist is but a copy of an older ritual.
Funny how the churches NEVER educate their masses
in these matters..........)

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Thanks for the replies Scott1, Sojourner and UltraViolet......

I think the scriptures can be used as a great code of conduct and a code of ethics. Some basic teachings in them are universal.

I believe that it is true that the people of the day passed around the stories and they wound up in the scriptures. IMO the stories of old and the biblical accounts are too close to call a coincidence. This in no way invalidates what people believe about the scripture. I'm merely trying to show that sometimes things can't be taken at face value and some concepts and ideas aren't original. Even as a non theist I find there to be value and lessons in all scriptures even if I may not agree with the concepts or doctrine.

 

[sojourner]

Thanks for the replies Scott1, Sojourner and UltraViolet......

I think the scriptures can be used as a great code of conduct and a code of ethics. Some basic teachings in them are universal.

I believe that it is true that the people of the day passed around the stories and they wound up in the scriptures. IMO the stories of old and the biblical accounts are too close to call a coincidence. This in no way invalidates what people believe about the scripture. I'm merely trying to show that sometimes things can't be taken at face value and some concepts and ideas aren't original. Even as a non theist I find there to be value and lessons in all scriptures even if I may not agree with the concepts or doctrine.

It's not just your opinion. It's the conclusion of many immanent Bible scholars. There's a book by one of them, whom I happen to know personally. You might want to check it out: "OldTestament Parallels" by Victor Matthews (Paulist Press).

 

[logician]

Thanks for the replies Scott1, Sojourner and UltraViolet......

I think the scriptures can be used as a great code of conduct and a code of ethics. Some basic teachings in them are universal..

Please cite specific examples.

 

[Scott1]

Please cite specific examples.

Sermon on the Mount or The Great Commandment qualify.... do you need more?

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Please cite specific examples.

Well....Don't murder, don't steal, don't bear false witness, Don't commit adultery....honor your mom and dad,

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.....

Whether we as atheist like it or not, here in the US we benefit from laws deriving from some these basic principles.

If some one stole from you, you wouldn't necessarily take the law into your own hands you'd call the police and that person would be charged with the crime of theft (Thou Shall Not Steal)

Murder is an easy one. I don't have to give an example for that.

Purjury - (Thou shall not bear false witness)

Adultery - While there may not be a crime on the books for it just imagine your spouse cheating on you and let me know if you think that is acceptable. Better yet....you walking in on them while in the act.

Honor mom and dad - Again, that's an easy one.

I can respect your side if you feel as thugh I'm incorrect on any of the examples I have shown.

 

[logician]

Well....Don't murder, don't steal, don't bear false witness, Don't commit adultery....,

.

Actually, it's "thou shalt not kill", does this mean executions are murder? Does this meand soldiers that kill are commiting murder?

Don't steal - what if your family is starving to death, and you have no money and no charity to go to, is stealing allright them?

don't bear false witness - how many people twist the meaning of words to their own ends, is this wrong?

Don't commit adultery - may or may not be harmful, depending on circumstances

honor your mom and dad

What is they are not honorable?

 

[zoe and vic]

It's funny, but after all is said and done, the scriptures never claim to be perfect, nor do they purport to be the word of God. That seems to be a rather modern concept.

Yes they do.

 

[Scott1]

Actually, it's "thou shalt not kill", does this mean executions are murder? Does this meand soldiers that kill are commiting murder?

Don't steal - what if

The premise you asked about was "great code of conduct and a code of ethics."... not a catch-all for every situation. Logically, you can't expect a static code to apply to every moral situation...

 

[Scuba Pete]

Yes they do.

Oh please, please cite the passage(s). I triple dog dare you.

 

[McBell]

Oh please, please cite the passage(s). I triple dog dare you.

They presented this in another thread:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1142085-post89.html

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Actually, it's "thou shalt not kill", does this mean executions are murder? Does this meand soldiers that kill are commiting murder?

Don't steal - what if your family is starving to death, and you have no money and no charity to go to, is stealing allright them?

don't bear false witness - how many people twist the meaning of words to their own ends, is this wrong?

Don't commit adultery - may or may not be harmful, depending on circumstances

honor your mom and dad

What is they are not honorable?

Actually the word is murder. I guess it depends on the translation you're using or your interpretation.

The word used is (ratsach) and it means "to murder"

Strong's Lexicon
7523 ratsach raw-tsakh' a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).

This word can be found in the book of Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua. It comes in many descriptions such as (slayer, murderer, kill, murder, slain, manslayer, and killing). So I quoted it correctly.

But here's the thing.....All that I was saying is that we (non-theist) live under these rules. If some one "killed" your dog you won't just simply let them get away with it. You will notify the police and seek justice for the "crime" they have committed. Additionally I said it was a code of conduct but no place did I submit that it is the word of "God". I think code of conduct and "moral" code are completely different.

 

[zoe and vic]

The definition of ratsach also includes accidental.

1) to murder, slay, kill
a) (Qal) to murder, slay
1) premeditated
2) accidental
3) as avenger
4) slayer (intentional) (participle)



The word means all of them. If we justify a God who would say don't even resist an evil person, then it would include even the least definition. Not to be condemned for doing so, but to give indication as to why you are experiencing things as a consequence.

 

[crystalonyx]

But here's the thing.....All that I was saying is that we (non-theist) live under these rules. .

Actually, no, we live under laws made by man, which certainly do not incorporate statements like "honor thy father and mother", or "thou shalt not commit adultery".
The 10 commandments are religious guidelines from a Judaic background, nothing more, they are not a universal set of rules for everyone.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Actually, no, we live under laws made by man, which certainly do not incorporate statements like "honor thy father and mother",

Did you ever hear of the Baker act? Yes, we have this incorporated into our laws. I love it!

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Actually, no, we live under laws made by man, which certainly do not incorporate statements like "honor thy father and mother", or "thou shalt not commit adultery".
The 10 commandments are religious guidelines from a Judaic background, nothing more, they are not a universal set of rules for everyone.

No problem.....We'll just have to agree to disagree....:cover: