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Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?

Shad

Veteran Member
Good grief man....your reading and /or comprehension skills do not impress.. I will therefore proceed incrementally one step at a time per post so as to find the precise point where the misunderstanding begins...

Step 1.

In my post 340, I stated George Lemaitre first proposed the big bang theory

In your post 346 responding to my post, you stated ...."Nope, he put some distance between himself and this claim.

Do I understand this context correctly.....just a plain yes or no answer is all that is required....

Quoting to get you point across I see. Are you capable of providing an argument without using a fallacy? Again look at my quote in which I put in bold the part of your argument I was addressing and the part I put in bold in my argument against it. If you are incapable of reading comprehension when I place parameters in bold then this is not my problem but your own.

No you did not understand the context since you omitted the part of the quote I was addressing and omitted part of the quote in my comment. Again look at my comment in which I placed key words in bold, these are the parameters of my comment not what you quoted...

If you actually read my post you would see I provide clear parameters for the scope of the message.

"Nope, he put some distance between himself and this claim. He even told the Pope to avoid making this statement. The theory makes no claims to anything external to the scope of the BB and universe. Such claims were made by others after the fact. The only way this view works within science is if "God" means "We have no idea"
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Quoting to get you point across I see. Are you capable of providing an argument without using a fallacy? Again look at my quote in which I put in bold the part of your argument I was addressing and the part I put in bold in my argument against it. If you are incapable of reading comprehension when I place parameters in bold then this is not my problem but your own.

No you did not understand the context since you omitted the part of the quote I was addressing and omitted part of the quote in my comment. Again look at my comment in which I placed key words in bold, these are the parameters of my comment not what you quoted...
I see you are now on the run....but I have no point to make but the truth... There will be all the opportunity in the world for you to make your position clear and understood if we proceed logically and methodically.. As it is, you keep digging a deeper hole for yourself.

You see Shad....I am not trying to win any points here,,,but to show you exactly the context of what I said, where I said, and why I said wrt our exchanges. We can only resolve the misunderstanding if you likewise show the honesty to engage openly with me......it's not about winning...
 

Curious George

Veteran Member
Simply cause and effect. There is the actual moon, and there is a science book about the moon, containing the facts about the moon. The book about the moon is basically a model of the actual moon. A 1 to 1 copy in principle from the physical universe to a world of words, maths and pictures. The moon is the cause, the book is the effect, the evidence forces from the cause to the effect.
Not sure how the book is effect. Can you please explain.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
So while I claim I can believe material things based on their reliability, and the reliability of my interactions with other humans, none of that is to be trusted because there is a minute possibility that this is an illusion of my
emergent consciousness.

Instead, because of the possibility of this unreliability, I should take your word for it. You have experienced the true nature of the universe, and I have not. Simple as that.

Well, this is a magnificent logical fallacy that you are trying to get me to accept, called the Nirvana fallacy. Please read it.

Nirvana fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It also brings to mind another, perhaps more personal question for you. If you have experienced this oneness, and it is a desirable state, then why aren't you doing it right now. Is it a weakness on your part, or can you only achieve the state once a day? Why are you reading my post when you could be meditating?

Why are you saying ".. there is a minute possibility that this is an illusion of my emergent consciousness...."? There is no minute possibility. There will be no possibility. We are just robots dictated by some laws. OTOH, I am just reminding that we have power to observe the chemicals. WE have the power to change brain waves.

I am not asking anyone to trust my words. The discussion is happening because usually those who say that intelligence is sole product of interactions in brain also assert their identity by claiming to know better than others (and abuse others as speaking non-sense etc). One can see a lot of examples of that. Let us concentrate on the main point: if consciousness is derived through deterministic laws then that so-called consciousness cannot determine the true value of propositions.

My proposition OTOH is that we have the capability to break away from the chain of determinism because the root consciousness is unborn, uncreated, and unformed.

I will respond to other points as soon as I get some time.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
Most determinists would agree that randomness alone would prevent any perfectly determined state.

That would be worse. Consciousness arising out of random fluctuations. Perhaps that is actually the case as evident from random fluctuations of our minds.:D
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Why are you saying ".. there is a minute possibility that this is an illusion of my emergent consciousness...."? There is no minute possibility. There will be no possibility. We are just robots dictated by some laws. OTOH, I am just reminding that we have power to observe the chemicals. WE have the power to change brain waves.

I am not asking anyone to trust my words. The discussion is happening because usually those who say that intelligence is sole product of interactions in brain also assert their identity by claiming to know better than others (and abuse others as speaking non-sense etc). One can see a lot of examples of that. Let us concentrate on the main point: if consciousness is derived through deterministic laws then that so-called consciousness cannot determine the true value of propositions.

My proposition OTOH is that we have the capability to break away from the chain of determinism because the root consciousness is unborn, uncreated, and unformed.

I will respond to other points as soon as I get some time.

I would never disrespect you (If you are referring to me). But you telling me that I have to trust your experiences. . . Which unfortunately I cannot do .

I agree the implications of materialism may suggest the possibility of an limitation of free will.

However. a viewpoint similar to idealism or dualist also has implications. You're worldview may allow you free will and choices, but what is there to choose? What is at stake?

So materialism suggests a real world with choices that matters, and no free will.

Idealism (not saying you are one - this is admittedly a false dichotomy, just for perspective) suggests free will, but a false world where choices don't matter or aren't meaningful.
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
So materialism suggests a real world with choices that matters, and no free will.

Idealism (not saying you are one - this is admittedly a false dichotomy, just for perspective) suggests free will, but a false world where choices don't matter or aren't meaningful.

I will request explanation. Why you think materialism is real?
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Good question. I might rephrase it to "why do you think materialism represent the correct way to think about the world, as opposed to dualism or idealism?"

You could answer the same question about your experiences, which I respect.

But I answer materialism because it can be shared. I may have said that before, but I have noticed in my limited experience on these boards, that everyone has different experiences, different interpretations.

Materialists are always in agreement because we accept what can be shared. Nothing more than that.

What I want has nothing to do with it, exactly. Whether it's ultimately correct has little to do with it either.

I hope that answers your question!
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
The answer is...yes.

Before I am besieged by an angry mob all responding with posts concerning the problems with ID, who designed the designer, probability arguments, etc., I must clarify. Yes, the universe is “fine-tuned” in that there are certain constants (sometimes called fine-tuned constants or FTCs) that, were they ever-so-slightly altered, we wouldn’t exist. For some, no life would exist and possibly no universe. This interpretation of fine-tuning is similar to the “weak anthropic principle” (WAP), which is essentially a tautology. It asserts that because we exist, the nature of the cosmos must have properties such that we can exist, for if it did not, we wouldn’t be here.

But I wouldn’t start a thread just to note that some uses of two terms have an entirely non-religious context. To me, the fine-tuned argument (FTA), which uses fine-tuning as evidence for design, provides the best evidence for the existence of a “god” or “designer” available, but it is generally misunderstood. I will seek to remedy these (hopefully) over the course of this discussion, but I can’t just reference the FTA without addressing what it is.


The FTA has, essentially, to components. One is not disputed: there are a number of properties of physics, such as the strength of gravity, which, had its force been stronger or weaker by about one in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, life wouldn’t exist (no stars). Then there is the big bang, which requires a much, much larger number to represent how little a change would be needed in order for the big bang to either immediately turn into a “big crunch” or expand far to rapidly for life. The list goes on and on, but here I am just introducing issues, and the list is for debate/discussion.


The other component of the FTA is that so many properties of the universe require such extreme, unimaginable precision indicates design (and thus a designer). Normally, this part of the argument is (usually badly) justified on the basis of probability. Probability is a deceptively and deeply philosophical matter with important implications for most of the sciences. I bring this up because one counter-argument to the FTA is simply that we have no idea what the “probability space” is such that we can determine the probability that e.g., gravity would have the force it does. This interpretation of probability is frequentist. It assumes that events/outcomes are some subset from a set of all possible outcomes and the probabilities of these are determined in advance just the way we determine the probability of a coin flip to be 1/2.


The Bayesian approach is different. It is different in application, but more importantly it is also different philosophically, in that it does not posit probabilities to be viewed in absolute, idealized terms that are never actually realized, but in terms of likelihood given our state of knowledge. Thus we need not necessarily ask about the probability of a particular FTC, but rather its likelihood (in the technical sense of the term).


With as minimal information as I could manage to start this thread, I invite comments, questions, positions, arguments (for or against), criticisms, credit card information, and donations.

Our human brains are in mirror image of the universe, just as very minatiure universes.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Because there is,

Factually unsubstantiated.

You cannot prove consciousness outside the brain, that is a fact at this current time.

Else we would be non itelligent robots chained to whims of chemicals.

Unsubstantiated rhetoric

our existence has meaning.

Ridiculous.

My life has meaning regardless of your opinion.

I see Christians claiming the same thing because I don't follow their mythology. Its a fallacy on both parts, yours and theirs.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Sure they are. When you look into the sky you see your brain, just magnified significantly.
Are you talking of some sort of fractal proportional relationship? In any event, in the Chan-Taoist tradition, our individual minds are merely aspects of the One Mind, which is eternal and infinite. The teaching is all about the folly of trying to prove or find this underlying One Mind, by using one's mind.....for it is an integral of the One Mind...

Here is an excerpt from the writings of Huang Po.....

All the Buddhas and all sentient beings are nothing but the One Mind, beside which nothing exists. This mind, which is without beginning, is unborn and indestructible. It is not of any colour and has neither form or appearance. It does not belong to the categories of things which exist or do not exist, nor can it be thought of as in terms of time, past or future. It can't be described by any words or numbers for it transcends all limits, measures, names, traces, and comparisons. It is that which you see before you -- begin to reason about it and you fall into error. It is like a boundless void which can't be fathomed or measured. The One Mind alone is the Buddha and there is no distinction between buddhas and mortal beings. But that mortals, by identifying with form, seek externally for buddhahood. By their very seeking they lose it, for that is using the buddha to seek the Buddha. For that is using mind to find Mind. They do not know that, if they were to cease conceptual thought processes, the Buddha is realized, for this mind is the buddha and the Buddha is all sentient beings. It is not the less for being manifested in ordinary entities, not is it greater for being manifested in the buddhas.
 
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