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Is the cosmos "fine-tuned"?

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate.

Premise I: The universe has several physical constraints. Scientific fact.

Premise II: These physical constraints have very precise properties which allow our universe, and human life, to exist. Scientific fact.

Conclusion
: The universe is fine-tuned. Scientific fact.​
Weak argument. (As someone recently said to me in a post)

It's a poorly formed syllogism.

Usually, the premise 1 is something like "if X then Y", then premise 2 is "X", so then the conclusion can be "Y". Here you have more of P1) X. P2) Y. C) therefore Z.

Like this:
p1) Anything that is fine tuned is designed.
p2) The universe is fine tuned.
c) Ergo, the universe is designed.
 
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shawn001

Well-Known Member
Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations
Do gods exist? Do supernatural entities intervene in human affairs? These questions may be important, but science won't help you answer them. Questions that deal with supernatural explanations are, by definition, beyond the realm of nature — and hence, also beyond the realm of what can be studied by science. For many, such questions are matters of personal faith and spirituality.

Science has limits: A few things that science does not do
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
What science is doing is gradually filling in the gaps, squeezing God into successively smaller spaces. This isn't the purpose of science, but it is having that effect.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate.

Premise I: The universe has several physical constraints. Scientific fact.

Premise II: These physical constraints have very precise properties which allow our universe, and human life, to exist. Scientific fact.

Conclusion
: The universe is fine-tuned. Scientific fact.​

I repeat: The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate. If you disagree with this statement, you are denying settled science, and should be banned from this forum, and all other science-based forums (both online and off).

Where the debate actually lies (pun intended) is with the question what is the cause of the fine-tuning? This is where the science is not settled, as there are currently two valid competing hypotheses:

Atheist Hypothesis: Multiverse. With so many universes (perhaps an infinite number), each with random properties, it was inevitable that (at least) one would end up with the properties of our current universe. Yes, our universe is fine-tuned, but it's a matter of overwhelming numbers putting luck in our favor, not of design.​

Theist Hypothesis: God. Designs are the result of the intentional manipulation of the universe to achieve a desired goal. For example, I'm intentionally manipulating the pixels on your screen with the desired goal of sharing my thoughts. This is the hallmark of intelligent design; it's what we would expect to discover if the universe were designed for a purpose. Guess what? It's exactly what science has discovered.​

Now, which of these two hypotheses is the most compelling is entirely subjective. I find the God hypothesis to be the far more rational view, and I believe the multiverse to be a highly-contrived, unscientific dodging of an unwanted conclusion (God).

I fully accept that I could be wrong, and the multiverse is true. However, even if the multiverse is true, it would only explain the how of the fine-tuning of our universe; fine-tuning would still be a scientific fact.

More here: Dear Anthropic Principle Deniers: How the Laws of Physics Prove Fine Tuning
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it's the other way around? That we're "fine tuned" in the sense that any other type of life could not exist because it'd be destroyed by cosmic radiation or some other equally massive, impossible to ignore threat?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it's the other way around? That we're "fine tuned" in the sense that any other type of life could not exist because it'd be destroyed by cosmic radiation or some other equally massive, impossible to ignore threat?

We are certainly fine-tuned in an evolutionary sense.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate.

Premise I: The universe has several physical constraints. Scientific fact.

Premise II: These physical constraints have very precise properties which allow our universe, and human life, to exist. Scientific fact.

Conclusion
: The universe is fine-tuned. Scientific fact.​

I repeat: The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate. If you disagree with this statement, you are denying settled science, and should be banned from this forum, and all other science-based forums (both online and off).

Where the debate actually lies (pun intended) is with the question what is the cause of the fine-tuning? This is where the science is not settled, as there are currently two valid competing hypotheses:

Atheist Hypothesis: Multiverse. With so many universes (perhaps an infinite number), each with random properties, it was inevitable that (at least) one would end up with the properties of our current universe. Yes, our universe is fine-tuned, but it's a matter of overwhelming numbers putting luck in our favor, not of design.​

Theist Hypothesis: God. Designs are the result of the intentional manipulation of the universe to achieve a desired goal. For example, I'm intentionally manipulating the pixels on your screen with the desired goal of sharing my thoughts. This is the hallmark of intelligent design; it's what we would expect to discover if the universe were designed for a purpose. Guess what? It's exactly what science has discovered.​

Now, which of these two hypotheses is the most compelling is entirely subjective. I find the God hypothesis to be the far more rational view, and I believe the multiverse to be a highly-contrived, unscientific dodging of an unwanted conclusion (God).

I fully accept that I could be wrong, and the multiverse is true. However, even if the multiverse is true, it would only explain the how of the fine-tuning of our universe; fine-tuning would still be a scientific fact.

More here: Dear Anthropic Principle Deniers: How the Laws of Physics Prove Fine Tuning


"
There is one scientific conundrum that practically screams out the limitations of both science and religion. And that is the “fine tuning” problem. For the past 50 years or so, physicists have become more and more aware that various fundamental parameters of our universe appear to be fine-tuned to allow the emergence of life — not only life as we know it but life of any kind. For example, if the nuclear force were slightly stronger than it is, then all of the hydrogen atoms in the infant universe would have fused with other hydrogen atoms to make helium, and there would be no hydrogen left. No hydrogen means no water. On the other hand, if the nuclear force were substantially weaker than it is, then the complex atoms needed for biology could not hold together.


In another, even more striking example, if the cosmic “dark energy” discovered 15 years ago were a little denser than it actually is, our universe would have expanded so rapidly that matter could never have pulled itself together to form stars. And if the dark energy were a little smaller, the universe would have collapsed long before stars had time to form. Atoms are made in stars. Without stars there would be no atoms and no life.

So, the question is: Why? Why do these parameters lie in the narrow range that allows life? There are three possibilities: First, there might be some as-yet-unknown physics that requires these parameters to be what they are. But this explanation is highly questionable — why should the laws of physics care about the emergence of life? Second possibility: God created the universe, God wanted life (for whatever reasons), so God designed the universe so that it would allow life. Third possibility, and the one favored by many physicists today: Our universe is one of zillions of different universes with a huge range of parameters, including many different values for the strength of the nuclear force and the density of dark energy.

Some universes have stars and planets, some do not. Some harbor life, some do not. In this scenario, our universe is simply an accident. If our particular universe did not have the right parameters to allow the emergence of life, we wouldn’t be here to talk about it. In a similar way, Earth happens to be at the right distance from the sun to have liquid water, a nice oxygen atmosphere and so on. We can ask why our planet has all these lovely properties, amenable to life. And the explanation is that there is nothing special or designed about Earth. Other planets exist. But if we lived on Mercury, where the temperature is 800 degrees, or on Neptune, where it is 328 degrees below zero, we could not exist. Unfortunately, it is almost certain that we cannot prove the existence of these other universes. We must accept their existence as a matter of faith.

And here we come to the fascinating irony of the fine-tuning problem. Both the theological explanation and the scientific explanation require faith. To be sure, there are huge differences between science and religion. Religion knows about the transcendent experience. Science knows about the structure of DNA and the orbits of planets. Religion gathers its knowledge largely by personal testament. Science gathers its knowledge by repeated experiments and mathematical calculations, and has been enormously successful in explaining much of the physical universe. But, in the manner I have described, faith enters into both enterprises.

Book review: ‘Why Science Does Not Disprove God’ by Amir D. Aczel - The Washington Post


However,

Life in the Universe
Stephen Hawking's

"What we normally think of as 'life' is based on chains of carbon atoms, with a few other atoms, such as nitrogen or phosphorous. One can speculate that one might have life with some other chemical basis, such as silicon, but carbon seems the most favourable case, because it has the richest chemistry. That carbon atoms should exist at all, with the properties that they have, requires a fine adjustment of physical constants, such as the QCD scale, the electric charge, and even the dimension of space-time. If these constants had significantly different values, either the nucleus of the carbon atom would not be stable, or the electrons would collapse in on the nucleus. At first sight, it seems remarkable that the universe is so finely tuned. Maybe this is evidence, that the universe was specially designed to produce the human race. However, one has to be careful about such arguments, because of what is known as the Anthropic Principle. This is based on the self-evident truth, that if the universe had not been suitable for life, we wouldn't be asking why it is so finely adjusted. One can apply the Anthropic Principle, in either its Strong, or Weak, versions. For the Strong Anthropic Principle, one supposes that there are many different universes, each with different values of the physical constants. In a small number, the values will allow the existence of objects like carbon atoms, which can act as the building blocks of living systems. Since we must live in one of these universes, we should not be surprised that the physical constants are finely tuned. If they weren't, we wouldn't be here.

Life in the Universe - Stephen Hawking

There is quite likely other life in the universe and maybe some based on silicon life forms. Its a stretch that any God would make the universe so big and put us on this little planet and consider us as we are special in my opinion.

The fine tuning argument also does nothing to tell us anything about a God or any particular religion of humankind at all.

It seems also to be fine tuned to come up with thousands of religions and millions and millions of different Gods.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Jared, on your site you say "pose a huge threat to scientific progress"

Then go into the supernatural explanation is the one you "BELIEVE" but do you have any evidence for a God other then the fine tuning argument? .Because that also would leave tons of questions unanswered as well. Also maybe some Aliens did it from another universe?

Because, since you mention scientific progress then you would know Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations.

"Science doesn't draw conclusions about supernatural explanations
Do gods exist? Do supernatural entities intervene in human affairs? These questions may be important, but science won't help you answer them. Questions that deal with supernatural explanations are, by definition, beyond the realm of nature — and hence, also beyond the realm of what can be studied by science. For many, such questions are matters of personal faith and spirituality.

Science has limits: A few things that science does not do
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
Responding to the "Fine Tuning" Argument for God (Sean Carroll)



"God doesn't need to fine tune anything." It underestimates God by a lot. God doesn't care what the mass of the electron is...
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Really, I think you don't listen to intelligent modern theists. Our thinking is not as narrow as you imply.

With theists I sense an emotional need to believe in something like God. So it's not so much narrow thinking as the inability to maintain an open mind.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
With theists I sense an emotional need to believe in something like God. So it's not so much narrow thinking as the inability to maintain an open mind.
To me, an open mind is one that considers possibilities beyond the physical too and uses his objective intellect to determine what is most reasonable to him from all the evidence and argumentation out there. The mind still stays open after that.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
To me, an open mind is one that considers possibilities beyond the physical too and uses his objective intellect to determine what is most reasonable to him from all the evidence and argumentation out there. The mind still stays open after that.

Well said, and we still don't lose a single bit of objective physical knowledge as well.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
No, sometimes it is about proposing new hypotheses. That's how many scientific ideas started.

Who said we don't have any possible clues when great wisdom traditions present answers that we can at least pose as hypotheses. While claimed direct mystical insight can not be called scientific proof it can be used in the formulation of hypotheses.

That makes a lot of sense. I think many scientific discoveries have worked with hypotheses inspired by ideas, even religious ones.

How so we test these hypotheses?

The scientific method produces conclusions based on the results of testing hypotheses, and if those conclusions counter what is already settled. . . It unsettles it. The scientific method is self-correcting towards veracity and reliability of what can be truly considered known.

In terms of faith, how will you test in a way that's repeatable by anyone with the right methods globally, independent of cultural influence and historical considerations?
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate.

Premise I: The universe has several physical constraints. Scientific fact.

Premise II: These physical constraints have very precise properties which allow our universe, and human life, to exist. Scientific fact.

Conclusion
: The universe is fine-tuned. Scientific fact.​

I repeat: The fine-tuning of the cosmos is a scientific fact which is not up for debate. If you disagree with this statement, you are denying settled science, and should be banned from this forum, and all other science-based forums (both online and off).

Where the debate actually lies (pun intended) is with the question what is the cause of the fine-tuning? This is where the science is not settled, as there are currently two valid competing hypotheses:

Atheist Hypothesis: Multiverse. With so many universes (perhaps an infinite number), each with random properties, it was inevitable that (at least) one would end up with the properties of our current universe. Yes, our universe is fine-tuned, but it's a matter of overwhelming numbers putting luck in our favor, not of design.​

Theist Hypothesis: God. Designs are the result of the intentional manipulation of the universe to achieve a desired goal. For example, I'm intentionally manipulating the pixels on your screen with the desired goal of sharing my thoughts. This is the hallmark of intelligent design; it's what we would expect to discover if the universe were designed for a purpose. Guess what? It's exactly what science has discovered.​

Now, which of these two hypotheses is the most compelling is entirely subjective. I find the God hypothesis to be the far more rational view, and I believe the multiverse to be a highly-contrived, unscientific dodging of an unwanted conclusion (God).

I fully accept that I could be wrong, and the multiverse is true. However, even if the multiverse is true, it would only explain the how of the fine-tuning of our universe; fine-tuning would still be a scientific fact.

More here: Dear Anthropic Principle Deniers: How the Laws of Physics Prove Fine Tuning

Others have already dealt with some of the issues with the argument, but I want to come at this based on the implications of your argument, and what the limitations of those implications are.

If a creator truly fine-tuned the universe, and you can point to the reliability of the physics and it's precise variables to support life, then can the creator then change those laws of physics?

Basically, in using a fine-tuning argument, you are proposing that:

1. God has no potency (and perhaps no knowledge) once his creation is set in motion. This is the only way to justify the fine-tuning argument, because the argument assumes the reliability of physical discoveries about the universe. Humans can observe them, describe them, and use their reliability to promote the possibility of a god. However, your god is cold and impersonal, and you can forget about Jesus and the possibility of his resurrection from the dead.

2. God can not only change the physics of the universe whenever he wants, we have to assume that he has changed it, or still is changing it. The laws of physics under this conclusion are malleable, and we cannot reliably assume they are consistent with our observations, if such a god exists. If you believe in miracles, supernatural intervention, or people being raised from the dead or their skin conditions healed, then the mathematical descriptions of the physical world produced by scientific inquiry must be unreliable. We have no idea when the universe was created, nor can we assume that it's laws make any sense on a log enough timeline.

I don't care which one you believe personally, but you can't have both. You need to understand the implications of your own argument.

You either trust the math, or you trust the magic. Don't use the math to prove an argument that makes the math irrelevant.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Sure. But generally there is an easier and preferred method to explain why it appears that our universe is "designed". Namely, multiverse cosmologies. The argument in simple form is that the reason it appears that the seemingly impossible odds exist because there are many universes (possibly infinitely many) and almost none of them are capable of sustaining life, but in the tiny minority (perhaps even one) that is, that is indeed where we find it.

Awareness is itself the ever-present existence, and whatever appears (or disappears) in it, can never be not fine-tuned, when viewed from mind's processes that are necessarily post-facto.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Here's a simplistic answer (from a simplistic source, albeit one from an academic publisher, that I almost quoted last time but didn't want to and do so now just because I know I'm not good at explaining via this medium), which asks why fine-tuning requires an answer at all and gives a bit more about its nature)
"Why think we need an explanation for the actual value that it has?
When it comes to fine-tuning, it isn’t merely the small odds involved but the extreme, negative results arising from a small change. A very slight difference in the values of the FTCs produces dramatic change in the universe when it comes to habitability. We exist in a fantastically narrow window of possibilities outside of which life is impossible. Contrast this with the oxygen-atoms-in-the-room example. We can survive with much less oxygen, with air that is polluted, with various ratios of oxygen and nitrogen, etc. Life does not depend on the precise number of oxygen atoms in the room. The amount of oxygen could change over a fairly large range but would produce few noticeable differences vis-à-vis habitability. In contrast, life itself depends on the FTCs having the precise values that they do.
One would have expected a priori that life is stable with respect to changes in the physical constants and initial conditions. In other words, we would expect the FTCs to behave like the oxygen example in which a slight change makes little observable difference. Small changes produce small effects. What makes the FTCs special is that slight changes in their values have effects such as altering the chemical composition of the universe! Small changes produce dramatic effects. Nonetheless, that is what current physics tells us would happen, and it is that narrow, life-supporting range in the FTCs that requires an explanation. Coincidence is not a plausible response."
Koperski, J. (2015). The Physics of Theism: God, Physics, and the Philosophy of Science. Wiley-Blackwell.

Do these theists begin with the premise that we (or the awareness that we are) originate from or depend on the so called fine tuned chemical compostion of the universe?
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I don't know that I'd describe us as being particularly "fine" anything, but there are a number of constants or parameters that have values which require precision beyond that we could ever have imagined. Consider the number pi. In most applications, 3.14 is an appropriate approximation for this infinite decimal. I can't think of one that would require precision to 20 decimal places. Yet for a number of these fine-tuned constants(FTCs) the precision required is twice that, or three times that, or more. And deviations from that precision mean (depending upon the parameter/constant) no universe or no life.
You're struggling with a tautology. If the FTCs were not what they are then there would be no life as we know it, but it is, and so we are what we are. It really is no more complicated than that.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I don't know that I'd describe us as being particularly "fine" anything, but there are a number of constants or parameters that have values which require precision beyond that we could ever have imagined. Consider the number pi. In most applications, 3.14 is an appropriate approximation for this infinite decimal. I can't think of one that would require precision to 20 decimal places. Yet for a number of these fine-tuned constants(FTCs) the precision required is twice that, or three times that, or more. And deviations from that precision mean (depending upon the parameter/constant) no universe or no life.
You're struggling with a tautology. If the FTCs were not what they are then there would be no life as we know it, but it is, and so we are what we are. It really is no more complicated than that.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
In terms of faith, how will you test in a way that's repeatable by anyone with the right methods globally, independent of cultural influence and historical considerations?
We can't. At our stage of science and religion they are pretty much separate wisdom traditions. Science can rigorously know things but can not get at the ultimate questions that concern humans. Religion addresses the ultimate questions but those things can not be known with the same rigorousness of science.

For example, I of course accept everything science has proven, but I also believe the masters/sages of the east (India) have delved deeper into the ultimate questions than any other of man's wisdom traditions. However they claim direct mystical insight into nature which can't be studied objectively by science. Could they be wrong?....Yes. But for multiple reasons I believe they have the best understanding out there and from my study of paranormal phenomena I am strongly convinced there are dramatically important things not understood by science; in my judgment the Advaita masters understandings best fit the facts.
 
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