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Is the "crcifixion" just a metaphor?

outhouse

Atheistically
Dismissing any argument by simply stating that the scholars all agree is a great deal easier than actually engaging on what evidence there is.

.

The evidence you discount, leaves nothing to debate. It is not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

It is easier to hand wave all the evidence away, then it is to understand how ancient authors used rhetoric, mythology and metaphor, and how and why they wrote what and when while trying to create the history of their time.


Do you know why no one from this time period questioned his existence in any shape or form ? a man who represented a hated movement where followers were hunted down and murdered, a movement that was viewed a atheist by the Empire, and not even his movements enemies questioned his existence.


Yes its easy to say nu uh. Without a replacement hypothesis, your spinning your wheels.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
The evidence you discount, leaves nothing to debate. It is not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

It is easier to hand wave all the evidence away, then it is to understand how ancient authors used rhetoric, mythology and metaphor, and how and why they wrote what and when while trying to create the history of their time.


Do you know why no one from this time period questioned his existence in any shape or form ? a man who represented a hated movement where followers were hunted down and murdered, a movement that was viewed a atheist by the Empire, and not even his movements enemies questioned his existence.


Yes its easy to say nu uh. Without a replacement hypothesis, your spinning your wheels.

There were no attestations to the gospels until well into the second century. How would they know if He lived or not? Any nay sayers would have been long dead.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Correct.

But that does not mean the books themselves are devoid of historical evidence.

I never said otherwise.


We have a movement away from Judaism that factually started about the exact same time as the NT states it did.

There is no replacement hypothesis that explains this movement the way the NT does.

Because nobody needs a 'replacement hypothesis', there were many such movements.

No one is saying take it all in as evidence. No one is saying we should attribute historicity blindly. What we are saying is that there is no replacement hypothesis that makes any sense what so ever.

Why would you need a 'replacement hypothesis'? That is not how history works - you don't demand others come up with 'replacement hypothesis', you need to evidence your own hypothesis.

Nobody needs a better explanation than; Well sure, there were many break away sects at about that time. So what?


There is no reason to fake anything about a Galilean traveling teacher, and nothing at all is out of sink with the political turmoil that put the man on the cross.

Oh no. There was every reason in the world to fake it.

There is a total of evidence that puts the man on the cross to the point of almost factual.

As I keep asking, like what?

We have Josephus and Tacitus a generation later, and the gospels.

What else?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
It's those on a quest for an historical Jesus that have their work cut out for them. For the skeptic there is nothing about the crucifixion to explain away, I mean, no witnesses, where's the problem?
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
I
Because nobody needs a 'replacement hypothesis', there were many such movements.

Laughable brother.

There were none based on a Galilean traveling teacher who was martyred for his selfless actions after his death at Passover.


yes it is required. factually.


Why would you need a 'replacement hypothesis'?




To explain the evidence we have.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Laughable brother.

There were none based on a Galilean traveling teacher who was martyred for his selfless actions after his death at Passover.


yes it is required. factually.







To explain the evidence we have.

You're reading a narrative, it's fiction. People don't rise from the dead.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
A replacement hypothesis for what, you haven't provided anything to replace?

Replace an entire religion based off the life and actions of a living person, that managed to basically dominate the course of an entire empire over a few hundred years with a religion that was a fictional story created by someone?

Why would people begin to follow this religion in the first place? What did it offer that other religions of the time didn't?

Because nobody needs a 'replacement hypothesis', there were many such movements.

Why would you need a 'replacement hypothesis'? That is not how history works - you don't demand others come up with 'replacement hypothesis', you need to evidence your own hypothesis.

Nobody needs a better explanation than; Well sure, there were many break away sects at about that time. So what?

You always need a replacement hypothesis. That's how debate works. One person presents their view of the subject with supporting arguments and evidence. Then the other person presents counter-arguments and evidence that support their view of what happen.

Yes, there were many break away sects at that time. What made this one different enough in order for it to permanently change the course of human history?

Oh no. There was every reason in the world to fake it.

Yes, I'm curious as to what these reasons were as well. I don't even understand how you can make a statement like this and not explain the reasons why?


As I keep asking, like what?

We have Josephus and Tacitus a generation later, and the gospels.

What else?

The thing you must understand is that in all likelihood, the Jesus movement most likely did not make enough of a bang for the major historians to write about it as much more than a foot note, until many years after the crucifixion occurred. The Jesus movement was a very small one, up until at least 50 years after his death. Up until then, he was most likely just a Jew that crucified on Passover. I believe there is a document that records at least three other Jewish rebels suffering the exact same fate at the exact same time. Why would their story not be made into a religion as well?

It's those on a quest for an historical Jesus that have their work cut out for them. For the skeptic there is nothing about the crucifixion to explain away, I mean, no witnesses, where's the problem?

How many crucifixions do you think occurred over the course of the Roman empire's reign that were not recorded by any witness of significance. Does that mean that the Roman empire did not crucify anyone? At the time of Jesus' crucifixion he was not a large enough player for any historian to mention him as anything more than a footnote.

Why?

Who faked it?

Exactly

You're reading a narrative, it's fiction. People don't rise from the dead.

Actually, people rise from the "dead" on quite a regular basis. My mom's a nurse and she sees people rise from the dead on a daily basis. Have you ever heard of the term bellringer? It arises from people sitting next to freshly buried people in the 19th century with a bell attached to the coffin in case they "rose from the dead".

However, my personal opinion is that Jesus never died on the cross.
Jesus Christ did not Die on the Cross – A Cardiologist

This is what we call a replacement hypothesis. I propose a new argument of my own different from that of the other person I am debating with, and present evidence to support my point of view.

:facepalm:
The evidence appears to be a well guarded secret.

No, the evidence that is presented is not enough for you to believe that Jesus existed. Why would Josephus and Tacitus mention Jesus' crucifixion if they didn't believe it happen? Where they deceived by the created story of Jesus' as well? You also have the Talmud evidence as well. Why would the very people Jesus was separating from include a reference to his crucifixion if it didn't happen?

The only real evidence that suggests that Jesus was not a real person was the writings of some early Christian gnostic sects that believed Jesus didn't exist. And granted, this is some decent evidence in my opinion, because I hold that the "gnostic" type sects were the original sects of Christianity. However, this does not hold true within all gnostic circles, so the descrepencies kind of make me question it.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Replace an entire religion based off the life and actions of a living person, that managed to basically dominate the course of an entire empire over a few hundred years with a religion that was a fictional story created by someone?

Why would people begin to follow this religion in the first place? What did it offer that other religions of the time didn't?

That is an argument from ignorance. You don't know why people began to follow this religion in the first place therefore the story must be true. Your conclusion is based on fallacious reasoning.
 
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steeltoes

Junior member
How many crucifixions do you think occurred over the course of the Roman empire's reign that were not recorded by any witness of significance. Does that mean that the Roman empire did not crucify anyone? At the time of Jesus' crucifixion he was not a large enough player for any historian to mention him as anything more than a footnote.


What footnote?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
No, the evidence that is presented is not enough for you to believe that Jesus existed. Why would Josephus and Tacitus mention Jesus' crucifixion if they didn't believe it happen? Where they deceived by the created story of Jesus' as well? You also have the Talmud evidence as well. Why would the very people Jesus was separating from include a reference to his crucifixion if it didn't happen?

The only real evidence that suggests that Jesus was not a real person was the writings of some early Christian gnostic sects that believed Jesus didn't exist. And granted, this is some decent evidence in my opinion, because I hold that the "gnostic" type sects were the original sects of Christianity. However, this does not hold true within all gnostic circles, so the descrepencies kind of make me question it.

I am not arguing against Jesus' existence. I am asking for evidence of his crucifixion. Got any?
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Originally Posted by nash8

Why would Josephus and Tacitus mention Jesus' crucifixion if they didn't believe it happen?

Another argument from ignorance. You don't know why therefore it must have happened. Another conclusion based on fallacious reasoning.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Actually, people rise from the "dead" on quite a regular basis. My mom's a nurse and she sees people rise from the dead on a daily basis. Have you ever heard of the term bellringer? It arises from people sitting next to freshly buried people in the 19th century with a bell attached to the coffin in case they "rose from the dead".

However, my personal opinion is that Jesus never died on the cross.
Jesus Christ did not Die on the Cross – A Cardiologist

This is what we call a replacement hypothesis. I propose a new argument of my own different from that of the other person I am debating with, and present evidence to support my point of view.

I don't need an hypothesis to explain no witnesses. No one that wrote about Jesus ever met the guy. What's to explain here? There were no witnesses to the crucifixion. So, what of it? You might need an hypothesis if you are trying to prove something about the crucifixion but I on the other hand have nothing to prove. People eventually began to believe the gospel story as actual and real events, just as people still do to this very day. I don't have to believe that the story is true, I need a reason for that to happen.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What did it offer that other religions of the time didn't?


.

Now that is a good question.



It offered all of those pagan people in the Diaspora a chance to worship the one god of Judaism that was becoming very popular, instead of a Emperor who claimed to be the "son of god" and was just viewed as another corrupt politician.

It gave all these Hellenist the ability to worship one god without being labeled a Jew, or having to follow all of those pesky customs.


It was diverse enough to leave itself open to popular mythology and theology. It offered free health care as they would run out those pesky demons at no charge. The would also promise how they would save your soul, as the world was coming to an end and you would not want to have sulfur dripped on you for eternity, so you had better join quickly while you can.

It was also a religion for the hard working poor members of society, one was not required to pay to worship like the competition. Slaves as well as business owners and women were welcome.
 

nash8

Da man, when I walk thru!
I am not arguing against Jesus' existence. I am asking for evidence of his crucifixion. Got any?

LOL, what kind of evidence do you want? Do you want a photograph, or genetic evidence left on the a cross that confirms it was withoutadoubt it was Jesus? Do you want a cross with a man nailed on it with a plaque that says Jesus was here?

My evidence is written accounts in the Bible that say a man named Jesus was crucified. My other evidence is from 2 other historians that say the same thing. My last piece of evidence is another written document that in the Talmund, that says a man named Yeshu was crucified on the eve of Passover. I also provide is evidence that these account correlate with other records that show that the timeline correlates correctly according to the kings/leaders that reigned at the time that the crucifixion was said to occur.

Crucifixion of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Read through this and tell me what you don't agree with.

The most important question we need to ask is what constitutes evidence in your opinion?

Another argument from ignorance. You don't know why therefore it must have happened. Another conclusion based on fallacious reasoning.

I'm not saying that it must of happened because I don't know why they mentioned it if it didn't happen. I'm saying it most likely happened because two respected historians of the era said it happen.

On the other hand, I was asking you why you think they would mention it if it didn't happen. So why would two historians mention this event in your opinion?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I am asking for evidence of his crucifixion

Your on ignore, you wont be replied to.


Different communities wrote about his crucifixion for hundreds of years, with not one community or person, not even his enemies, claimed he did not exist, or did not die on a cross.

Within 15 years of his historical crucifixion, Paul began writing, and not once questioned his death or existance. NOR did anyone question Pauls view of Jesus historicity. Not one person said Paul your writing about a myth. NO ONE!


Now you cant refute any of that with credibility.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
@nash8

Buddy, I don't need an alternative hypkthesis other than that there were plenty of breakaway sects at the time.

That's it.

That explains the evidence in questiin just as well as your hypothesis.
 
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