Is The Current Vitriol Within The Country Responsible For The DC Shootings?

[leibowde84]

I must disagree with you on your opinion for the following reason.
There are those out there, like Hodgkinson, that have serious issues and possible mental issues. In my opinion anyone that is like Hodgkinson that holds such animosity against, in this case, a political party and is constantly bombarded with highly negative comments like "he is another Hitler, their program will kill people, they shove grandmaw over a cliff, and others comments can possible justify to themselves that something must be done to stop them and I can and will do it.

But, obviously, the same kind of rhetoric is coming everyday from members of the right. So, how do we stop this dangerous rhetoric from both sides. Who should step up?

 

[leibowde84]

Responsible for the act, probably not. Responsible for not working to fix the endemic problems that allow people like him the tools to carry out such things? Certainly.

What tools? Like guns you mean?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Trump as Hitler is "describing things accurately"? Really? I can see it as a point of satire or an exaggerated form of political mudslinging, but I didn't really think that people literally believed it.

As for how bad someone would need to be before a Hitler comparison is appropriate? If we're talking about Hitler, it would have to be pretty bad, don't you think?

Trump has been pretty bad already, but how bad someone has to be before a Hitler comparison is apt depends on what sort of comparison you're trying to make. The comparison most relevant to me right now is about warning signs... IOW, the "this guy is behaving a lot like Hitler did while the Germans still could've done something about him, so we ought to do something about this guy while we still can" claim.

I'd put Trump somewhere around Hitler after becoming Chancellor but before the Reichstag fire. There are definite differences (for instance, Trump never served in the military and hasn't been to prison yet), but in terms of warning signs, Trump really is exhibiting a lot of the ones that Hitler did:

- he co-opted an existing party over the objections of the party's old guard.
- he came to power through a populist and authoritarian platform.
- he pursues xenophobic policies intended to vilify groups he sees as outsiders.
- he seems to chafe from the limitations on his power caused by accountability laws and the checks and balances of democracy.

These signs don't necessarily mean that he'd commit genocide against Muslims or Mexicans, but they are enough to warrant the sort of concern that would have been warranted in early 1930s Germany, IMO.

Do you disagree?

 

[esmith]

Here's a good illustrative example:


Donald Trump Needs to Own the Yemen Raid

- a SEAL dead
- civilians dead
- an American helicopter destroyed by Americans to stop it from falling into enemy hands
- by all reports I've seen, no clear sign that anything of value was obtained from the raid

Things go wrong. You can only say that the President authorized it. He did not plan it, he did not participate in it.
Of course I think I understand your issue. You have a problem with the Presidents agenda, sorry about that, but that is all the sympathy you will get.

U.S. lawmakers to fight massive Trump Saudi arms deal

Tough. As long as they don't use the weapons against us or our allies I could care less.

People routinely were refused health insurance before 2014

On the contrary: Obamacare has some serious flaws; it was just the best that Obama could get passed while working with Republicans.

what does 2014 have to do with what may or may not happen in 2017.
Obama had control of the House, and Senate he didn't want or need to work with the Republicans to get this legislation passed. So get over it.

I look forward to the day when the US injects some sanity into its health care system by providing universal, government-funded health insurance.

keep looking

Heck, no. I'm not right-wing enough to be a Democrat.

No but you are the alt-left correct.

Behaving like Hitler, obviously.

In your opinion.

 

[Underhill]

What tools? Like guns you mean?

Yes.

 

[leibowde84]

Yes.

Very true.

 

[Stevicus]

I'd put Trump somewhere around Hitler after becoming Chancellor but before the Reichstag fire. There are definite differences (for instance, Trump never served in the military and hasn't been to prison yet), but in terms of warning signs, Trump really is exhibiting a lot of the ones that Hitler did:

- he co-opted an existing party over the objections of the party's old guard.

I disagree here. The Nazi party was a relatively new party with just a handful of members when Hitler joined. There was no "old guard." In contrast, the Republican Party was firmly established and Trump had been a member for years prior to becoming a candidate (although Trump was a Democrat at some point in his past as well).

- he came to power through a populist and authoritarian platform.

Populist, yes. Authoritarian? Hitler was authoritarian because Germany had always been authoritarian. US presidents and candidates don't operate that way because the US has a tradition of freedom. Germany does not.

- he pursues xenophobic policies intended to vilify groups he sees as outsiders.

Not really, no. This is where a lot of this gets exaggerated. He obviously hasn't closed the border, nor has he banned all Muslims into the US. If he was anything remotely close to Hitler, he would be calling for mass deportations of all Hispanics and anyone of Middle Eastern ancestry. Nothing like that has even come close to happening in the US. In fact, Trump would be banning anyone who is not American. The fact that Trump made a trip to Saudi Arabia to hobnob with those whom he (presumably) sees as "untermensch" should be a major clue that Trump is nowhere anything like Hitler at all.

- he seems to chafe from the limitations on his power caused by accountability laws and the checks and balances of democracy.

There's a lot of that going around in Washington lately. And even with the NYPD, apparently.

These signs don't necessarily mean that he'd commit genocide against Muslims or Mexicans, but they are enough to warrant the sort of concern that would have been warranted in early 1930s Germany, IMO.

Do you disagree?

The thing is, the Weimar Republic was a weak government and didn't have the same safeguards or constitutional protections that our government has. Nor did Germany have any traditions of freedom or challenges to authority.

One similarity I might note is that both of the governments before Hitler and Trump were pretty poor, although America's economy was nowhere near as bad as Germany's was prior to the rise of Hitler. But again, the same lesson should have been learned: If you don't want extremists to gain power, then you make the economy better. That's all they had to do to prevent either Hitler or Trump to come to power, and yet, they couldn't do that one simple thing. Because greed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I disagree here. The Nazi party was a relatively new party with just a handful of members when Hitler joined. There was no "old guard." In contrast, the Republican Party was firmly established and Trump had been a member for years prior to becoming a candidate (although Trump was a Democrat at some point in his past as well).

So you agree that Hitler co-opted the party; you just don't think the peope he co-opted it from had been around long enough to call "old guard"?

Populist, yes. Authoritarian? Hitler was authoritarian because Germany had always been authoritarian. US presidents and candidates don't operate that way because the US has a tradition of freedom. Germany does not.

So Hitler's authoritarianism followed the German tradition, but Trump's authoritarianism represents a change?

Not really, no. This is where a lot of this gets exaggerated. He obviously hasn't closed the border, nor has he banned all Muslims into the US.

He argued for an across-the-board Muslim ban during his campaign. He tried to do this to the extent he thought he could get away with it.

He has stated that he wants a total ban on Muslims coming into the US and has been pursuing this goal to the extent that the law allows and then some.

If he was anything remotely close to Hitler, he would be calling for mass deportations of all Hispanics and anyone of Middle Eastern ancestry. Nothing like that has even come close to happening in the US. In fact, Trump would be banning anyone who is not American. The fact that Trump made a trip to Saudi Arabia to hobnob with those whom he (presumably) sees as "untermensch" should be a major clue that Trump is nowhere anything like Hitler at all.

You mean not like the Hitler who allied himself with the people he saw as "untermensch" in Japan?

There's a lot of that going around in Washington lately. And even with the NYPD, apparently.

So you don't disagree?

The thing is, the Weimar Republic was a weak government and didn't have the same safeguards or constitutional protections that our government has. Nor did Germany have any traditions of freedom or challenges to authority.

One similarity I might note is that both of the governments before Hitler and Trump were pretty poor, although America's economy was nowhere near as bad as Germany's was prior to the rise of Hitler. But again, the same lesson should have been learned: If you don't want extremists to gain power, then you make the economy better. That's all they had to do to prevent either Hitler or Trump to come to power, and yet, they couldn't do that one simple thing. Because greed.

So the key difference between Trump and Hitler is the environments the two men found themselves in, as opposed to their actual views or goals?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Things go wrong. You can only say that the President authorized it. He did not plan it, he did not participate in it.

He authorized it against the advicecif his military advisors. His authorization set the parameters that those planning the mission had to work within.

Of course I think I understand your issue. You have a problem with the Presidents agenda, sorry about that, but that is all the sympathy you will get.

Well, it's a problematic agenda. It makes sense to have a problem with it.

Tough. As long as they don't use the weapons against us or our allies I could care less.

So much for empathy.

No but you are the alt-left correct.

Is "alt-left" one of those terms you made up like "Southern Justice League"?

 

[Stevicus]

So you agree that Hitler co-opted the party; you just don't think the peope he co-opted it from had been around long enough to call "old guard"?

I guess it would depend on what you mean by "co-opted." Hitler made the Nazi party what it was, so it revolved totally around his cult of personality. This has not happened with Trump and the Republicans, many of whom are starting to distance themselves from Trump.

So Hitler's authoritarianism followed the German tradition, but Trump's authoritarianism represents a change?

It would be a change, if Trump was actually an authoritarian.

He argued for an across-the-board Muslim ban during his campaign. He tried to do this to the extent he thought he could get away with it.

He has stated that he wants a total ban on Muslims coming into the US and has been pursuing this goal to the extent that the law allows and then some.

Still, this is not exactly "authoritarianism" at work. Every country, including the US, has put restrictions on immigration at various times for whatever reason.

You mean not like the Hitler who allied himself with the people he saw as "untermensch" in Japan?

They were allies of convenience, and even then, hardly that. I'm not even sure if Hitler saw the Japanese that way, nor am I convinced that Trump sees the Saudis that way either.

So you don't disagree?

I'm just saying that Trump is a product of his times, a product of this society and culture. But that doesn't mean he's anything like Hitler.

So the key difference between Trump and Hitler is the environments the two men found themselves in, as opposed to their actual views or goals?

I don't think Trump's goals are anything remotely close to what Hitler's goals were. Their views seem quite a bit different from each other. But yes, the political environment of the US today versus Germany in the 1930s are quite different from each other.

I think Trump is something not unlike a typical "establishment" politician looking at himself in a fun house mirror.

 

[esmith]

He authorized it against the advicecif his military advisors. His authorization set the parameters that those planning the mission had to work within.

It seems that you have a problem with the facts..
If you don't mind, how about reading the following and explain your false claim that his military advisors advised against it.
Raid in Yemen: Risky From the Start and Costly in the End
Can't find what you are looking for there try this one
Yemen raid: The plan, the operation, and the aftermath - CNN.com
Now if we look a little close we will see that the Obama approved of the attack. Just for those that don't want to take the time to read. Here is the Obama fact
"President Barack Obama’s national security aides had reviewed the plans for a risky attack on a small, heavily guarded brick home of a senior Qaeda collaborator in a mountainous village in a remote part of central Yemen. But Mr. Obama did not act because the Pentagon wanted to launch the attack on a moonless night and the next one would come after his term had ended"

Well, it's a problematic agenda. It makes sense to have a problem with it.

Fine, just don't attempt to convince me you are right.

So much for empathy.

I have empathy but only in certain instances and this wouldn't be one.

Is "alt-left" one of those terms you made up like "Southern Justice League"?

Having issues with facts again are we.
Why the Alt-Left Is a Problem, Too
Urban Dictionary: alt-left
AltLeft.com
Enough, I could continue about alt-left

Southern Justice League
Good day.

 

[esmith]

He authorized it against the advicecif his military advisors. His authorization set the parameters that those planning the mission had to work within.

It seems that you have a problem with the facts..
If you don't mind, how about reading the following and explain your false claim that his military advisors advised against it.
Raid in Yemen: Risky From the Start and Costly in the End
Can't find what you are looking for there try this one
Yemen raid: The plan, the operation, and the aftermath - CNN.com
Now if we look a little close we will see that the Obama approved of the attack. Just for those that don't want to take the time to read. Here is the Obama fact
"President Barack Obama’s national security aides had reviewed the plans for a risky attack on a small, heavily guarded brick home of a senior Qaeda collaborator in a mountainous village in a remote part of central Yemen. But Mr. Obama did not act because the Pentagon wanted to launch the attack on a moonless night and the next one would come after his term had ended"

Well, it's a problematic agenda. It makes sense to have a problem with it.

Fine, just don't attempt to convince me you are right.

So much for empathy.

I have empathy but only in certain instances and this wouldn't be one.

Is "alt-left" one of those terms you made up like "Southern Justice League"?

Having issues with facts again are we.
Why the Alt-Left Is a Problem, Too
Urban Dictionary: alt-left
AltLeft.com
Enough, I could continue about alt-left

Southern Justice League
Good day.

 

[idav]

It would be a change, if Trump was actually an authoritarian.


I'm just saying that Trump is a product of his times, a product of this society and culture. But that doesn't mean he's anything like Hitler.

Trump is an authoritarian, much more than most republicans. Authoritarians thinks they dhave know wrong and it's their way or the highway. Just because trump isn't killing gypsies doesn't mean their are no similarities. Hitler probably thought anyone not Christian are lesser some how, and seems trump feels the same way trying to stir up some holy wars.

 

[Akivah]

I take back what I said in my previous post. No one is responsible for violence perpetrated by others. No one on the right or left is responsible for the recent shooting during the congressional baseball practice except for the shooter himself. It is absolutely ludicrous to blame anyone but the actor himself. We have got to stop grouping people together with stereotypical language. It is destroying this country. Democrats are not all "liberals". Republicans are not all "conservatives". People have complicated views on both sides. For example, I agree with some conservative ideals and some liberal ideals. I am a registered independent. I have no respect for President Trump, but it doesn't really have anything to do with is political views or agenda. I am OK with anyone who disagrees with me politically, and I enjoy debating with them respectfully.

The rhetoric from the right and left must be cleaned up ASAP or violence from both sides won't stop.

Now that is a WINNER post. I wouldn't change a thing.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the news....
Nebraska Democratic Party official ousted after controversial audio recording surfaces

Caution: Foul language
And the audio....